*** STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Spoiler Discussion/Reactions ***

365,558 Views | 2952 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Philip J Fry
Aggie_Journalist
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AG
Hey TC. First of all, I want to make clear that I really enjoyed reading your review, but I found it to be a very flawed take on The Force Awakens. (All in jest, TC! I enjoy your posts, but I disagree with this one and I'll lay out why in hopes that it helps you or others enjoy the movie better).

It seems your two biggest gripes about the movie are:
A.Characters spend too much time explaining things to the audience.
B.Not enough is explained to the audience.
Which is a bit of a contradiction.

Examples of A:
- Just after Han finds the Falcon, he has to ask Rey who now owned it, and then quickly has to explain (to the audience, basically) how it got to be on Jakku.
- As Han is about to fend off the bounty hunters from his freighter, he then has to explain ...
- The brief moments Han and Leia had together ... over-explain their feelings

Examples of B:
- Finally, hours later ... (Maz says of Luke's light saber) "We'll explain it in the next movie!"
- Half the audience still has no idea that (Snoke) was a hologram.
- But why not provide some kind of context? (about Snoke)
- I needed another line or two of context as to who Max von Sydow was playing (and five more questions about Tekka)
- (You kind of ask for an explanation about why R2 woke up)
- Who or what, exactly, the Resistance was resisting
- I didn't need a long, drawn-out explanation of who the Knights of Ren are, but only a single, vague sentence about them wasn't enough

Some of this goes to your point about too many contrivances, but some of this is a very contradictory desire for more and less explanation at the same time.

As to the contrivances: This was going to be a movie with a lot of coincidence. To have a movie with a compelling new cast that has to somehow come together, then roll out the original cast a few characters at a time, it will feel like a coincidence every time a new face or the Millennium Falcon shows up, but it's such a rewarding coincidence of "Omg! The Falcon! Yes!" etc., that I forgive it. Either you get a ton of coincidence as familiar characters are slowly revealed, or you run into the whole original gang at a single moment. The gradual roll out was much more enjoyable, if contrived, than a single moment of "here's the original crew" would have been.

As to folks not knowing Snoke was a hologram: What? I'll believe you that somewhere out there, folks are confused, I just don't understand why. What did they think happened to the giant 90-foot alien when he disappeared at the end of each scene he was in? The emperor was introduced to us as a giant hologram head in ESB, did these folks think the emperor was a giant, too? I really think this complaint is more on the movie-goer than the writers. I also have to say that "half" the audience not knowing Snoke is a hologram must be a gross exaggeration. I haven't met a single person who thought that really was him.

As to Maz: I thought her CGI looked fine. That's 100% personal opinion, though. And I'm fine one CGI alien being used as a character like that. This is a galaxy full of all sorts of crazy life forms. It would be kind of silly if every single important character were human or human-like, and heavy prosthetics are probably difficult to emote through. It also came as highly unexpected (the last rumor I had read in June was that Lupita was the Jabba the Hutt of Ep. 7. Having her character turn out this way was a pleasant surprise.)

As to Rey finding the lightsaber: You mention you wish the Force were driving the plot. In this case, the Force literally calls to Rey when she hears the laughter of children. Doesn't that suggest the Force was pushing things a certain direction at least a little bit? Reflecting on the movie, I almost get a Sauron's Ring vibe from the lightsaber/the force. It overtly called Rey to that room, it might also have subtly influenced events to create that moment.

As to the Starkiller base complaints: Why wouldn't the Imperial remnant try to improve on such a powerful weapon? The empire is clearly fighting a losing battle far from being able to take down the republic. Wouldn't it make sense they'd look into using their Death Star technology to develop long-range artillery? As we saw, it single handedly leveled the playing field against the Republic when they fired it. Did the U.S. stop building nukes after WWII? No, we built more powerful ones and better ways to deliver the payload. Of course the empire (First Order) would explore doing the same. Also, by reusing a familiar device (not just the death star, but many others) it spares us some exhibition of explaining what we're seeing because we're familiar with it, which kind of goes back to your "too much is explained / too little is explained" paradox. Also, it seemed clear the Empire needs a giant, planet-sized base to shoot the intergalactic laser. I doubt the First Order has any more of those laying around, so it's not like they can replicate the technology in future episodes. It's hardly the duffle-bag teleporter from Into Darkness. In terms of "removing the stakes," what's the difference between a mobile, planet-destroying space station that can shoot long-range lasers and a mobile, space station that can shoot short-range lasers?

As to the Republic/First Order/Resistance dynamic: I haven't read your article yet, but what I gathered from the movie was:
A: The republic controls most of the galaxy & feels secure enough in its position that it doesn't maintain giant expensive fleets anymore.
B: The First Order rules other segments and lacks the military might to face the republic, so it's been building the StarKiller base to level the playing field.
C: The resistance is funded by the Republic to continue to fight the First Order. It's probably a mix of senior rebel military advisors (Leia, Ackbar) who didn't want to mess with politics, so they help local resistance groups and provide them supplies.
Sure, not much of this is explained, I'm just drawing on what I know of our world and applying it to the Star Wars Galaxy. As far as your question, "What is the resistance resisting." It's resisting the First Order, right? Or am I not understanding your question? Life's clearly not back to the OT. I thought it was fairly clear the Empire is losing the fight, the Republic controls the core, and a downsized resistance is all that's needed to keep the Imperial Remnant away from Republic space.

Where we agree
-Poe was underutilized after the start of the movie and I never really cared what was happening with him during the final dogfight.
-This movie was a LOT of fun.

What were you expecting? Citizen Kane? ;-)
Satellite of Love
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quote:
A few of these have been covered already, one or two to rehash and one or two I don't quite agree with.

quote:
- Finally, hours later (for them), when Rey randomly-and-out-of-no-where finds Luke's long lost lightsaber in a random treasure chest in the basement of a random castle, Abrams doesn't even have a reason why, and actually had a character basically say, "We'll explain it in the next movie!" That one was the icing on the cake for me, and maybe the most egregious. I still cannot believe that is how Luke's lightsaber was inserted into the plot of this movie. After all the speculation, that element is such a let down.
This isn't an unfair criticism, but I think it's also pretty intentional on Han's part that he brings Rey to Maz. We don't know why yet, and it did feel a bit random, but I can sort of buy that it Rey was there for a reason. I don't recall all the dialogue with Han and Maz there, definitely want to pay more attention to those sequences in a rewatch.
Man several people here jumped my ass when I complained about the sudden appearance of Anakin's (Luke's 1st lightsaber) with no explanation. How are you not going to explain how a lost saber shows up in a random castle's basement two episodes later!?
Zombie Jon Snow
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AG
quote:
quote:
Maybe, Han just needed an excuse to see Maz. Maybe he knew the lightsaber was there and was taking Rey to it because he knows more about her than we know at this point.
I am leaning towards this line of thought as well.

...except that Han did not want to take Rey and Fin initially...he wanted the MF and wanted them off his ship. He only kind of reluctantly agreed to take them after they were attacked by the pirates and Chewie was injured and Rey proved herself useful as a co-pilot.

He definitely DID NOT recognize her.

Only after they revealed the map that BB8 was carrying did he decide he needed to take them to Maz.
jabberwalkie09
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I like it. This was Morpheus taking Neo to the Oracle.
Well, I know that people have been referring to Maz as Yoda-esque, but perhaps she is a blend of characters. Part Lando and Yoda. She says she can't use the Force in the film, but she know of the Force and she has been around long enough to have context to whatever is going on in the galaxy. Also, she has her own place like Lando had his own place in ESB that the characters tried to find refuge for a moment at.
80s Guy
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Ok, saw it last night and here are a few quick thoughts.

1. So much better than the prequels. It's like they never happened.

2. I read a large number of the books post ROTJ but it has been a long time but I was pleasantly suprised to see some things pop up, even if they were changed.
A Solo being the new Sith/Dark Side bad guy. Pretty sure that we are seeing a modified version of Jason and Jaina Solo being put out there.
The Starkiller showed up, even though it wasn't a small indestructible ship.

3. The whole killer octopus thing was in my opinion a tip of the hat to the Sarlac, as was the "cantina" scene, Poe flying into the containment area and blowing stuff up was Death Star part 3, and Maz as an all seeing being with some Force sense was another Yoda-like being.
4. The banter about how the Falcon got back was classic.
5. Kylo getting injured so badly at the end is just a prophecy of being part of the family.
6. Where were the bacta tanks for Fin?
7. We see ships jump out of lightspeed on a planet but Storm Trooper armor still blows?
8. Fin's character was awesome. Loved the last couple scenes where he forced the female Stormtrooper captain into lowering the shields. I see the same characteristics of Han coming out in him, the wise cracking, the fight/flight reactions, etc

More later.
AlaskanAg99
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I take great umbrage this generation of instant gratification spoon-fed teat-suckling till age 5 people can't understand this is an almost 8 hour story and only 1/3rd has been told.

What isn't explained now doesnt mean it won't be explained later. FFS.

If people want real life it could have been a movie set in a boring committee meeting and Rey searching intergalatic.craigslist.org in the Missed Connections looking for the owner of the Falcon.

Damn, go watch C-Span.

This is a Space Opera!!!!
jabberwalkie09
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How are you not going to explain how a lost saber shows up in a random castle's basement two episodes later!?
Ask yourself this: Is knowing how Maz came into possession of it important to the story, or is knowing Rey's connection to it, and thus to Luke, more important? If the answer is Rey's connection, then the story of how Maz came into possession of the lightsaber that Luke lost at Bespin is largely irrelevant in my mind. I don't see how knowing how it went from Bespin to Maz's vault in her castle would enhance the story. I don't see how it would enhance Luke, Rey, or Ben/Kylo's story.
TelcoAg
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It's all heresay, but what I would imagine is going on in the background.

None of that ever was stated, but the MF ended up on Jakku and was completely hidden from everyone of knowledge for 10-30 years? So it has some kind of lo-jack system but apparently that is disabled when you're on a planet.

Now let's go back to the PT, and they find ships on planets at least 3 or 5 times when looking for Anakin or OB1. So either they ignored that tech, or they just have new security measures.


One thing that interests me, sure they have alot of droids etc, but how big is the FO's fleet? and how long did it take them to build the base?

We saw one SD right that Hux was on, and did the command/piloting level get blown up by a TIE or Xwing crashing into it or was that something else?? And the good guys blew up their planet and base... I didn't see any SDs or SSDs taking off before it blew up, so a plot hole I see needed to be plugged is how many FO people are left, thousands upon thousands died/were destroyed on the planet, so the remaining are where? Outter rim protecting Snoke? Somewhere else?


Here is the opening crawl:

quote:
Episode VII

THE FORCE AWAKENS

Luke Skywalker has vanished. In his absence, the sinister FIRST ORDER has risen from the ashes of the Empire and will not rest until Skywalker, the last Jedi, has been destroyed.

With the support of the REPUBLIC, General Leia Organa leads a brave RESISTANCE. She is desperate to find her brother Luke and gain his help in restoring peace and justice to the galaxy.

Leia has sent her most daring pilot on a secret mission to Jakku, where an old ally has discovered a clue to Luke's whereabouts.

They should have put some lines in the opening crawl to explain that the First Order was building it's force in the outer rim under Supreme Leader Snoke, and that their activities were being mostly ignored by the Republic. That only Leia and her guerilla resistance were involved in trying to monitor and destroy the First Order, and were getting limited support from the New Repulic.

The StarKiller existing didn't make any sense given the backstory of the First Order up to that point. The First Order being someone disjointed and a bit rag tag should have been the point they were trying to sell because it adds to the Kylo Ren story. Kylo is clearly lacking in training, yet he's put in command of the First Order. Why? Because there weren't any other options at that time, and Snoke couldn't sit back and wait for Luke to come back and begin rebuilding the Jedi again.

How the First Order could build a multi-planet destroying weapon without anyone in the Republic knowing is pretty bonkers, but especially so since they were still in the process of building their forces and power over the past few decades.
TelcoAg
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quote:
quote:
How are you not going to explain how a lost saber shows up in a random castle's basement two episodes later!?
Ask yourself this: Is knowing how Maz came into possession of it important to the story, or is knowing Rey's connection to it, and thus to Luke, more important? If the answer is Rey's connection, then the story of how Maz came into possession of the lightsaber that Luke lost at Bespin is largely irrelevant in my mind. I don't see how knowing how it went from Bespin to Maz's vault in her castle would enhance the story. I don't see how it would enhance Luke, Rey, or Ben/Kylo's story.
I think you're right in that the backstory had no purpose here. I think the film purposefully evading the answer to where it came from by having Han actually ask the question, only to have Maz say "there's no time for that now," is what turned it into something more important. I can't help but wonder if more people would brush this off entirely had Han never asked the question to begin with.
jabberwalkie09
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Where we agree
-Poe was underutilized after the start of the movie and I never really cared what was happening with him during the final dogfight.
Well, the problem with Poe at the end of the movie for me was that I knew he was going to succeed. I mean in the air battle over Maz's castle, I counted that he shot down six TIE's in very short order. That's not including the number of Stormtroopers he blasted in strafing runs. He could do no wrong and there was absolutely no concern on my part that he was ever really at risk after being rescued by Finn. He was about the only character in the film that felt truly safe from any harm.
Aggie_Journalist
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Agree. He was almost a little "too" good of a pilot.

We haven't seen previous Star Wars pilots come anywhere close to his level of "God mode" behind the stick. Not even the Jedi.
Brian Earl Spilner
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My only worry about that is JJ/Kasdan not knowing how Maz got it either. If they're keeping it a mystery for a reason to be revealed later, then I'm all for that. But not if they just put it in and left it to be answered by someone else, or simply for the purpose of moving the plot where it needed to go, as they did with R2 waking up at the end.

Now I find myself wishing JJ hadn't said anything about R2 instead of the answer he gave.
Bruce Almighty
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I'm calling it: Poe and Rey are related.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Interesting.
jabberwalkie09
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I know, it was unbelievable how amazing he was. He was better than what we knew of as the best pilot in the galaxy before now, Anakin Skywalker. I think Chuck Yeager would even be a little envious if he was in the Star Wars Universe.
Brian Earl Spilner
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We already know from the comics that Poe lived near that force tree, right?

Definitely has to have some force-ability.
TelcoAg
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quote:
quote:
Where we agree
-Poe was underutilized after the start of the movie and I never really cared what was happening with him during the final dogfight.
Well, the problem with Poe at the end of the movie for me was that I knew he was going to succeed. I mean in the air battle over Maz's castle, I counted that he shot down six TIE's in very short order. That's not including the number of Stormtroopers he blasted in strafing runs. He could do no wrong and there was absolutely no concern on my part that he was ever really at risk after being rescued by Finn. He was about the only character in the film that felt truly safe from any harm.
What's really funny is that Poe was originally supposed to die: http://www.gq.com/story/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-death
fig96
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We already know from the comics that Poe lived near that force tree, right?

Definitely has to have some force-ability.
This I totally missed. Which comic?
The Collective
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Poe owns a force bonsai?
Brian Earl Spilner
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Not sure. From his wookieepedia article:
quote:
Early life

Poe Dameron was born two years before the Battle of Endor.[2] He was the son of Shara Bey and Kes Dameron, who both served the Alliance to Restore the Republic in the fight against the Galactic Empire during the Galactic Civil War.[7] As an infant, Dameron barely saw his parents due to continued operations against the Imperials following the Battle of Endor,[1] as his mother worked as a Rebel pilot for the Alliance's Green Squadron and his father was a member of the Pathfinders,[8] and was thus left in the care of his maternal grandfather.[7] Only after the Imperial remnant put forward Operation: Cinder did Dameron's parents leave Rebel service to reunite with him, settle on Yavin 4 and build a house--close to which they planted a Force-sensitive tree, a gift from Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker.[1] When Dameron was a six years old[2], he learned how to fly using his mother's old RZ-1 A-wing interceptor. However when Dameron was nine, tragedy struck the Dameron family when his mother unexpectedly died.[4]

Member of the New Republic

Eventually, Dameron joined the New Republic and rose through the ranks becoming a Commander in the New Republic Starfleet and was given command of the Starfighter squadron, Rapier Squadron[4]
PooDoo
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I had no problem with Rey being able to utilize the force so quickly. She's a badass.

She survived in a crap hole by herself since she was little. She speaks droid. She can fix, fly, and fight anything with no training.

How much training did Luke really get in episode 4? Most of the training was training him to stop being a self doubting *****.

IMO, Rey always had the force but when she found the light saber and saw the future she figured out what she had and taught herself.
Ag Since 83
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Thanks for the write up TC. I appreciate your opinions, although I wonder how someone who claims the movie was a fun ride could be compelled to write such a long, negative review. And, I will disagree with you on two key points:

The Snoke hologram: It isn't JJ's fault some people failed to pick up on something that was plainly obvious. I thought he was appearing in person too, until the first time the hologram faded away. Now, I would have loved had some of the graphics such as holograms looked like they did in the original trilogy, but a bunch of people would have complained non-stop about how they weren't using the most up to date graphic technology. There's also spoken lines which make it obvious he isn't actually on the planet, like when he tells Hux to get Ren off the planet and bring him to where Snoke is. Sometimes, people don't pick up on things the first time they watch the movie. In this case, that's on them, not the filmmakers.

Maz: She couldn't be human because she's 1000 years old and has witnessed many different evils. Also, because Lupita Nyong'o is beautiful, she shouldn't be used for motion capture, voice work in a Pixar movie, etc.? I just can't comprehend being bothered by this.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
We already know from the comics that Poe lived near that force tree, right?

Definitely has to have some force-ability.
From what I gather (not a comic reader), Luke gave Shara Bey one (fragments?) of the Force trees in one of the comics (Shattered Empire I think). I think that may play into his ability as a pilot, but if I remember correctly his mother, Shara Bey, was a pretty good pilot in her own right including fighting at the Battle of Endor. I actually wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be somewhat force sensitive. I also wouldn't be surprised to eventually find out that him being a force sensitive x-wing pilot is based conceptually on Corran Horn, but now set in a post-ROTJ story line.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Yup, definitely the two weirdest complaints by TC.
jabberwalkie09
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My only worry about that is JJ/Kasdan not knowing how Maz got it either. If they're keeping it a mystery for a reason to be revealed later, then I'm all for that. But not if they just put it in and left it to be answered by someone else, or simply for the purpose of moving the plot where it needed to go, as they did with R2 waking up at the end.

Now I find myself wishing JJ hadn't said anything about R2 instead of the answer he gave.
Again, I'm not really sure that it matters to the overall story. If it is covered later cool, but I personally don't have a need to find out. What matters is that it called to Rey, awakened her to the Force, and eventually drove her forward to find Luke as she gave into her destiny as she was undeniably connected to the lightsaber in some way. Even though she initially resisted.
fig96
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Found it, Star Wars: Shattered Empire, 4 issue prequel to Ep VII:

https://www.comixology.com/Journey-to-Star-Wars-The-Force-Awakens-Shattered-Empire/comics-series/51939

quote:
Emperor Palpatine's twenty-year reign of terror came to an abrupt and fiery end in the skies above the forest moon of Endor. A decisive victory for the Rebel Alliance, to be sure, but even with the loss of its leadership, the Empire's Moffs and regional governors retained their hold on important systems from the Core to the Outer Rim, thanks to the might of the Imperial Starfleet. Now, with a power vacuum atop the Empire, those Moffs will jockey for position and control, and the heroes of the Rebel Alliance will soon discover that a wounded and fractious Empire may be more dangerous than any threat they faced before! For the first time in the new Star Wars canon, journey with us into the time after the end of Return of the Jedi!

Saul Goodman
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AG
I agree. I don't have any issue with somebody not liking the movie as much as me, but his review sure seemed to be reaching for things to gripe about. I loved how they revealed the MF, and the idea that Han picked up the signal once it was in flight off the planet. As for the others, I love how open they left the questions (Luke's lightsaber) - plenty to speculate about and some really cool back-stories can be formulated.

I also think TC's review WAY underplays how awesome the new cast is, and their character stories. To me, that's what this movie was all about. I can't wait for episodes 8 and 9.
TelcoAg
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AG

quote:
The Snoke hologram: It isn't JJ's fault some people failed to pick up on something that was plainly obvious. I thought he was appearing in person too, until the first time the hologram faded away.
Yeah, I don't get that complaint. It was clear as day that he was a hologram, and if it wasn't, then you must have not asked the obvious question of "I wonder how Snoke is getting off the planet," as it was crumbling. The movie can't fix stupid people.
hurleyag
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So, why did they go to Maz's in the first place? wasn't it to get a 'clean' ship? Maybe i'm missing something but they didn't exactly avoid using the Falcon after that... they used it to sneak onto the first order planet and they used it to go find Luke (both times they could have used a different ship). Two major blunders if the Falcon was being tracked.

Maybe, Han just needed an excuse to see Maz. Maybe he knew the lightsaber was there and was taking Rey to it because he knows more about her than we know at this point. </crazytheory>



I didn't take it as the Falcon was actually being tracked as much as it is a unique ship and if someone sees it they will automatically know it is Solo and the Wookie.


EDIT: I completely forgot Solo mentioned he was able to track it after Rey and Finn acquired it.
The Collective
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So, I just watched the trailer for the hell of it. Was the scene of Rey crying over an alleged dead / injured body ever in the film?
Farmer1906
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So, I just watched the trailer for the hell of it. Was the scene of Rey crying over an alleged dead / injured body ever in the film?
Yes, it was Fin.
YellowPot_97
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By digging and trying to fill holes pre release, I think TC spoiled the movie for himself, in more ways than one.
The Collective
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I think in that whole scene I was processing way too damn much and didn't capture that specific moment. I figured out who it should have been - injured Finn - but couldn't recall the moment.
Simplebay
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By digging and trying to fill holes pre release, I think TC spoiled the movie for himself, in more ways than one.


Ding ding.
jabberwalkie09
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What's really funny is that Poe was originally supposed to die: http://www.gq.com/story/star-wars-the-force-awakens-character-death
Interesting. I wonder if the decision to keep him in the franchise (and make him OP as **** in the film) had to do with relating him to characters from the comics. I don't think knowing his lineage would have made a huge difference in the context of the film.
 
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