Rule of two isn't a rule so much as it is self-fulfilling religious doctrine. Sure, it breaks from time to time, but it always ends up back at 2 when all the story arcs collide.
*** STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Spoiler Discussion/Reactions ***
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Last: 6 yr ago by Philip J Fry
Does Kylo say "This will be your final mistake... cousin." ???
Well, I saw it today... Am I just too old? Have I seen too many movies to ever be blown away again? Maybe so, but this movie was not good.
I saw Star Wars at Northpark Mall in 1977 as a 10-yr-old boy. It was amazing, everything about it, the characters, the sets, the story, the flow - it was like nothing i'd ever seen. Then Empire came out, and (gasp) was even better??? Was that possible?? At that point, I probably believed every Star Wars movie was destined for greatness.
Little did I know that 30 years later, I'd still be waiting for a Star Wars movie that I liked. This latest attempt started out ok, but, as TC explained, went downhill fast. TC nailed most of my complaints, but I'll bring up the one that pissed me off the most.
Why, WHY do we need another super weapon destroyed? Holy Hell, and the weapon somehow drains a whole star? Ugh, why did they even hire new writers?
I understand we can never go back tp 1977, this story, this world can never be new again. But we should call out laziness and bad writing when we see it, even if it is disappointing and sad to do so.
I saw Star Wars at Northpark Mall in 1977 as a 10-yr-old boy. It was amazing, everything about it, the characters, the sets, the story, the flow - it was like nothing i'd ever seen. Then Empire came out, and (gasp) was even better??? Was that possible?? At that point, I probably believed every Star Wars movie was destined for greatness.
Little did I know that 30 years later, I'd still be waiting for a Star Wars movie that I liked. This latest attempt started out ok, but, as TC explained, went downhill fast. TC nailed most of my complaints, but I'll bring up the one that pissed me off the most.
Why, WHY do we need another super weapon destroyed? Holy Hell, and the weapon somehow drains a whole star? Ugh, why did they even hire new writers?
I understand we can never go back tp 1977, this story, this world can never be new again. But we should call out laziness and bad writing when we see it, even if it is disappointing and sad to do so.
Was so wrapped up in the Bastila Shan talk last night that I installed the original KOTOR on my wife's desktop. Currently in the Taris Upper City Cantina about to start my dueling career as the Mysterious Stranger.
Ah, I see. I didn't think they would let something like that be revealed in that manner.
quote:You just did a really good job of proving my point. Thanks, I didn't want to type all that out.
The entire point of the Rule of Two was to prevent a bunch of Sith running around squabbling over power, hindering their overall strength, and to stay hidden from the Jedi. The master taught an apprentice as much as possible and when the apprentice thought he/she was strong enough would overthrow the master or be killed attempting it. Both parties knew the stakes, so it was obvious they would seek out replacements.
The thing that, in my opinion, stays consistent with only two is that even though they sought other apprentices, none were ever full Sith, until the master or apprentice was dead. Despite other potential replacements, there were only ever 2 Sith at any time.
Palpatine started looking at Anakin to replace Dooku bc he knew Dooku was so old already that he'd never be able to continue the line or train someone fully. He used him to consolidate the separatist movement. Once he felt that Anakin could be turned, he orchestrated events so Dooku would be dead and he could focus his efforts on Anakin.
Meanwhile, Dooku starts thinking about overthrowing Palpatine, and picks Savage to train. Easier to kill the master with some help than it is by yourself. Too bad for Dooku, Maul shows back, gets Savage to side with him and tries to kill Dooku. So much for Dooku overthrowing Palpatine. Had Maul beaten Dooku, either he and Savage kill Palpatine and become the 2, or Palpatine kills them both and continues his plans for Anakin.
Once Anakin turns, he immediately goes and gets his arms and legs cut off, which kind of puts a ceiling on how powerful he can become. Too bad, there's no one left to turn, so Palpatine keeps him around bc he's still pretty much the most powerful force user alive.
But what's this? Luke Skywalker hits the scene and now Palpatine has a suitable replacement. Get rid of Vader, teach Luke...still 2. Vader had the same plan. Turn Luke, join up to kill the emperor...still 2.
quote:Maybe....... Juuuuuuusssssst maybe, this has something to do with it?? Of course as a 10-year old you didn't see all the mistakes in the OT. Some people... TCTTS was bound to dislike the movie unless it followed the exact path he spent years trying to discover and got his heart set on. Some others (like yourself) have put it on a pedestal and no matter what they did in this movie, would fall short of the image you have of the OT in your head.
I saw Star Wars at Northpark Mall in 1977 as a 10-yr-old boy. It was amazing, everything about it, the characters, the sets, the story, the flow - it was like nothing i'd ever seen.
Did I feel like it was repetitive and lacked some creativity? Yes. That's why I said 8.5/10 - about on par with Jedi, if not a little above... But the acting was pretty good, and you CARED about Poe and Rey. Not as much about Finn, but the characters were awesome so far. It was in the exact same style as the OT (dirty and grungy).
I think it did a good job of setting up character arcs for the coming movies, and should be viewed in that light (as part one of three). My major gripe was the super weapon, but I think the reasons for its use (destroying the five republic planets and making the FO a real threat) were acceptable.
quote:Awesome, keep us updated! I loved that game and may go replay it. My favorite Star Wars game by far!
Was so wrapped up in the Bastila Shan talk last night that I installed the original KOTOR on my wife's desktop. Currently in the Taris Upper City Cantina about to start my dueling career as the Mysterious Stranger.
quote:
Does Kylo say "This will be your final mistake... cousin." ???
He's saying "curses."
quote:
Ah, I see. I didn't think they would let something like that be revealed in that manner.
There's another video as well, but notice that a barrel explodes and Ren gets hurt each time he says that.
quote:Just got the sith armor and got into the lower city. Ambushed by Black Vulkars, Carth got his ass kicked and I had to run and use a frag grenade. My character is a scoundrel named Kylo Renquote:Awesome, keep us updated! I loved that game and may go replay it. My favorite Star Wars game by far!
Was so wrapped up in the Bastila Shan talk last night that I installed the original KOTOR on my wife's desktop. Currently in the Taris Upper City Cantina about to start my dueling career as the Mysterious Stranger.
Interesting, cuz I'm pretty sure I don't agree with you.
My 2nd viewing tonight and I took the kids. I let them play in the arcade after and at some point my oldest blurts out "I can't believe Han Solo died!". The line for the next 2 Star Wars showing is like 50 feet away. No way the heard her, but I sorta went into fan boy "no spoilers!" mode.
I did the responsible thing and gathered up my 5, 9, and 11 year old and explained how we don't talk about the movie until we are back in my truck! Kids loved it BTW!
I did the responsible thing and gathered up my 5, 9, and 11 year old and explained how we don't talk about the movie until we are back in my truck! Kids loved it BTW!
quote:
You just did a really good job of proving my point. Thanks, I didn't want to type all that out.
Unless I don't understand your point, he just illustrated the cycle of master and apprentice killing each other to maintain the rule of two, which opposes what you were saying about it being meaningless.
My point was that the Sith will always have a reason to break the rule of two, and then you elaborated on all the different times the Sith have come up with reasons to break the rule of two. Yes, they do it to overthrow their masters. That's what the Sith do.
The apprentice is always aiming to overthrow his master
The master always has an extra apprentice or potential apprentice stashed away somewhere
The apprentice is always looking for an apprentice of his own to help overthrow his master
They pretend to observe the "rule of two", but in terms of trying to figure out what is going on... best to ignore it, because there are always 3-5 of them running around somewhere and they are always willing to recruit new apprentices.
Although in the OT, Vader and Palpatine work together to try to bring Luke to the Dark Side, which really invalidates it even as a formality.
The apprentice is always aiming to overthrow his master
The master always has an extra apprentice or potential apprentice stashed away somewhere
The apprentice is always looking for an apprentice of his own to help overthrow his master
They pretend to observe the "rule of two", but in terms of trying to figure out what is going on... best to ignore it, because there are always 3-5 of them running around somewhere and they are always willing to recruit new apprentices.
Although in the OT, Vader and Palpatine work together to try to bring Luke to the Dark Side, which really invalidates it even as a formality.
So, you're saying that bc Palpatine and Vader both wanted Luke, who at the time was fighting with the rebellion to overthrow the empire, that means there were more than 2 Sith?
Just bc an apprentice was planning to kill his master and looking for an apprentice of his own, doesn't mean there were more than 2 Sith.
Just bc an apprentice was planning to kill his master and looking for an apprentice of his own, doesn't mean there were more than 2 Sith.
And just bc Palpatine wants Vader to track down Luke and bring him in does not mean he planned on keeping both of them around.
I guess I just don't see it whichever way you do. It's not really breaking the rule of two when your end game involves maintaining the rule.
My original comment about Kylo's invitation being interesting was meant to imply that, by asking her to join him, he was inviting her on the inevitable path towards killing him.
My original comment about Kylo's invitation being interesting was meant to imply that, by asking her to join him, he was inviting her on the inevitable path towards killing him.
quote:
They pretend to observe the "rule of two", but in terms of trying to figure out what is going on... best to ignore it, because there are always 3-5 of them running around somewhere and they are always willing to recruit new apprentices.
You're still trying to prove that the Rule of Two is meaningful by citing a time when two Sith were both trying to create a third Sith.
quote:The end game is to be the master of the galaxy. Rules exist for lesser beings.
I guess I just don't see it whichever way you do. It's not really breaking the rule of two when your end game involves maintaining the rule.
My original comment about Kylo's invitation being interesting was meant to imply that, by asking her to join him, he was inviting her on the inevitable path towards killing him.
I do agree with your second point though. Each individual Sith believes that he will be powerful enough to stave off his apprentice(s) even though they all know that eventually the apprentice will make a run at the title. It's an interesting dynamic.
But they aren't trying to create a third, they are trying to create the next 2nd. Let's say Luke decides to join Vader and help kill the emperor. He's not automatically a Sith. Just like a new student at the academy isn't automatically a Jedi.
I believe it was only Palpatine that held the master of the Galaxy view. It was meant as a chain of succession prior to that. But, that does validate your point since Palpatine's own world-view changed how the Rule of Two was meant to operate.
quote:quote:I believe the Hosnian system, specifically Hosnian Prime, was a seat for the new Senate on a rotating basis as opposed to how it was in the PT where it was always on Coruscant.
Btw, not that it matters, but is there any context as to the extent of damage that the republic sustained? It looked like 4-5 planets, which i assume were all republic supporters, and billions of people?
http://www.starwars.com/databank/hosnian-primequote:That's not to mention that I believe it was also mentioned in the film that as a result of the attack that the New Republic's fleet was destroyed (or perhaps just heavily devastated, I can't remember the exact wording used) due to the attack.
The capital of the New Republic, Hosnian Prime is a cosmopolitan world on the outskirts of the galaxy's Core Worlds region. One of Mon Mothma's reforms in establishing the New Republic was that member worlds would host the Senate on a rotating basis, a sharp break from the millennia in which Coruscant was the center of galactic power. But Hosnian Prime's tenure as Senate seat makes it the target of a terrifying attack by the First Order.
LOL at the New Republic after defeating the Empire not officially funding a legit military when the FO is still around.
I guess my only real point is: I don't for a second believe that any Sith sees his apprentice get an apprentice themselves without thinking, "which one am I going to have to kill?"
For you Rebels folks, read the Kanan comic.
Not sure what they've covered in the series as I've only seen the first couple eps, but the first few issues tell his origin and it's pretty fascinating.
Not sure what they've covered in the series as I've only seen the first couple eps, but the first few issues tell his origin and it's pretty fascinating.
Depending on what is and isn't considered canon, the Sith always wanted to rule the galaxy. That and destroy the Jedi, of course.
Why are more of you not talking about the Infinity 3.0 confirming Rey as Luke's daughter?
Scroll up, it's on the same page.
quote:
Scroll up, it's on the same page.
I know I just thought it'd be another 2 pages for sure
IMO, the Rule of Two was an ill-considered plot device from Lucas that he immediately showed was not to be trusted.
He introduced it during Phantom Menace, but according to approved canon at the time Darths Maul, Plagueis, and Sidious unambiguously overlapped during that movie. Then during AOTC Darths Plagueis, Sidious, and Tyrannus overlapped the same way. Likely all four overlapped, I just don't remember the timelines well enough to be sure. Not apprentices, but titled Sith Lords. So to me, it was invalidated from the start.
Trashing the EU "fixes" the contradiction by removing Plagueis from the picture, but then Yoda's comment is all that is left of the Rule of Two. We've already seen that the Sith had him fooled, and in any case the quote goes, "always two there are, a master and an apprentice." Apprentices would include people like Ventress and the others and now we're back to having several Sith masters and apprentices all the time.
But really, it just doesn't work for me. I believe that the Sith would never form armies of Sith out of self-preservation, but they don't believe in rules for themselves.
He introduced it during Phantom Menace, but according to approved canon at the time Darths Maul, Plagueis, and Sidious unambiguously overlapped during that movie. Then during AOTC Darths Plagueis, Sidious, and Tyrannus overlapped the same way. Likely all four overlapped, I just don't remember the timelines well enough to be sure. Not apprentices, but titled Sith Lords. So to me, it was invalidated from the start.
Trashing the EU "fixes" the contradiction by removing Plagueis from the picture, but then Yoda's comment is all that is left of the Rule of Two. We've already seen that the Sith had him fooled, and in any case the quote goes, "always two there are, a master and an apprentice." Apprentices would include people like Ventress and the others and now we're back to having several Sith masters and apprentices all the time.
But really, it just doesn't work for me. I believe that the Sith would never form armies of Sith out of self-preservation, but they don't believe in rules for themselves.
Not having a standing Grand Army is an important part of the Republic. They just had a defensive military.
The FO has, until now, been cordoned off to a backwater part of the galaxy. One thing that the new canon drives home is that the Clone Wars were devastating, and the galactic community was eager for peace. The Republic decommissioning most of its military was a big selling point. Member worlds are eager to provide for their own defense.
The FO has, until now, been cordoned off to a backwater part of the galaxy. One thing that the new canon drives home is that the Clone Wars were devastating, and the galactic community was eager for peace. The Republic decommissioning most of its military was a big selling point. Member worlds are eager to provide for their own defense.
What canon in 1999 had Darth Plagueis alive, let alone introduced to star wars? In attack of the clones?? Is that from a book that was written after revenge of the Sith came out?
I'm also fairly certain I learned about Darth Bane and the Rule of 2 before phantom menace came out.
I'm also fairly certain I learned about Darth Bane and the Rule of 2 before phantom menace came out.
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