*** STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Spoiler Discussion/Reactions ***

370,189 Views | 2952 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Philip J Fry
redline248
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AG
quote:
I did find the part of Kylo asking Rey to join him pretty interesting, given the rule of two and all.


Couple things:
1 - we have no evidence that Snoke/Kylo are Sith, or if rule of 2 survived the death of Palpatine and Vader. What are the knights of Ren? Other dark side users, I bet.

2. That's kind of the thing dark side apprentices do. Find someone else to teach and overthrow the master. Palpatine was actively recruiting Anakin while Dooku was still in the picture. Vader tried to get Luke to join over.
NoHo Hank
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quote:
Mind blown. Fan theory on Kylo. He's actually a good guy all along.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/seriously-dont-click-this-if-you-havent-seen-tfa-yet#.yv38yqPerj

Your mind is easily blown.
TelcoAg
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True. Even Dooku had apprentices (one of which Sidious killed, IIRC)

You're right on the Sith part. Snoke doesn't go by a Darth moniker (that we know of) so it could very well be he that isn't a Sith at all. He's definitely got a grand scheme that's unfolding, but what'll be interesting is finding out how much of it had been exposed to Kylo prior to the actions in 7.
TelcoAg
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To your second point, it wasn't Vader alone that wanted Luke to join the dark side, right? It was really Palpatine that wanted it since he believed he'd be stronger than Vader.
Knife_Party
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Right. Each wanted Luke for their own reasons. Vader wanted Luke to help overthrow the emperor and become the master. The emperor wanted Luke to trade in for a younger, less crippled apprentice.
redline248
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Yep. Emperor originally told Vader that he'd be a valuable ally and they should try to turn him, but we all know he wanted Luke to replace Vader.
amercer
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Looking forward to reading this now.
AliasMan02
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quote:
Yep. Emperor originally told Vader that he'd be a valuable ally and they should try to turn him, but we all know he wanted Luke to replace Vader.


This scene alone should have been enough to invalidate the idea of the Rule of Two in the draft stage, imo. If the Rule of Two was a thing, those two talking about bringing Luke on as an ally is actually kinda dumb.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Dawww
redline248
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quote:
quote:
Yep. Emperor originally told Vader that he'd be a valuable ally and they should try to turn him, but we all know he wanted Luke to replace Vader.


This scene alone should have been enough to invalidate the idea of the Rule of Two in the draft stage, imo. If the Rule of Two was a thing, those two talking about bringing Luke on as an ally is actually kinda dumb.


Not if you think about the idea that Palpatine can get Vader to do ask the hard work for him. It's basically what he tried to do in Jedi, anyway. Vader brings him up, Palpatine goes "alright, thanks Vader, but now he's gonna kill you"
LeonardSkinner
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Random comment... Boyega looked like a young Sidney Poitier in TFA.

Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH). That story hasn't concluded yet, so how Kanan, Ezra, and Ahsoka fit into things is still rather up in the air. Not to mention the Inquisitors.
Brian Earl Spilner
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What a badass.

LeonardSkinner
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quote:
quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH).

Sorry, could have been more clear. For a while, some thought Max von Sydow was going to be playing Jarrus. That's almost certainly not the case, so will the characters from Rebels show up in the New Trilogy?
redline248
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH).

Sorry, could have been more clear. For a while, some thought Max von Sydow was going to be playing Jarrus. That's almost certainly not the case, so will the characters from Rebels show up in the New Trilogy?


I find it unlikely. I fully expect Kanan and Ezra to be dead by the time of A New Hope. Probably Asohka, too. Although, star wars really doesn't like to kill primary characters unless they've run their full course. Personally, I don't see how Vader ends up letting them all survive and hiding once he realizes how big a threat they are turning into in that show.
Bruce Almighty
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quote:
quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH). That story hasn't concluded yet, so how Kanan, Ezra, and Ahsoka fit into things is still rather up in the air. Not to mention the Inquisitors.


I don't know much outside the movies, but wouldn't they all be dead by ANH?
LeonardSkinner
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I guess I'm reading too much into things, then. They seemed to make a big deal about what was and wasn't canon anymore, and I guess I'm thinking that Rebels is canon, for a bigger reason.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
Sorry, could have been more clear. For a while, some thought Max von Sydow was going to be playing Jarrus. That's almost certainly not the case, so will the characters from Rebels show up in the New Trilogy?
I believe that JJ and Filoni both said that no characters from Rebels would be showing up in TFA. No idea if that will hold true for the rest of the trilogy, but I tend to doubt that they will.
AliasMan02
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH). That story hasn't concluded yet, so how Kanan, Ezra, and Ahsoka fit into things is still rather up in the air. Not to mention the Inquisitors.


I don't know much outside the movies, but wouldn't they all be dead by ANH?


All of the major characters from the Clone Wars who might have an impact going forward ended up dead. Savage Opress, Ventress, the revived Darth Maul, etc. all ended up dead. Not sure how it will play out for the Rebels crew.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Random question... where do Kanan Jarrus (and the rest of SW: Rebels) fit into things now?
How do you mean? The events of the ST take place about 34 years after the time Rebels is at currently (4 years prior to ANH). That story hasn't concluded yet, so how Kanan, Ezra, and Ahsoka fit into things is still rather up in the air. Not to mention the Inquisitors.


I don't know much outside the movies, but wouldn't they all be dead by ANH?
Not necessarily. TCW got around by having Ventress essentially being an assassin for the Sith. I think they could use a similar excuse for the Inquisitors being servants to the Sith but not actually Sith themselves.

Kanan I expect to bite the dust in the next season or so. He's really the only character that is left that is a Jedi. Ezra isn't and Ahsoka left the order.

Ezra I could go either way with, but I think an interesting path for him to go would be to become a more grey character and breaking from the Jedi teachings and following his own path.

Ahsoka I expect to die, but I am not sure she has to. As I mentioned she left the Order at the end of season 5 of the TCW, and they've made a bit of a deal mentioning that she isn't aligned with the Jedi or the Sith. That's actually the reason they've decided to make her lightsabers in Rebels white. I can only think of one other individual in canon that had a white lightsaber, Tera Sinube.
LeonardSkinner
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I see an EW interview with Filoni that implies that there might be something to look for that relates Rebels with Rogue One, maybe not so much with TFA.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
All of the major characters from the Clone Wars who might have an impact going forward ended up dead. Savage Opress, Ventress, the revived Darth Maul, etc. all ended up dead. Not sure how it will play out for the Rebels crew.
Did Maul die? I thought that his fate at the end of the Son of Dathomir comic was him fleeing Dathomir. I don't believe he died.
AliasMan02
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quote:
quote:
All of the major characters from the Clone Wars who might have an impact going forward ended up dead. Savage Opress, Ventress, the revived Darth Maul, etc. all ended up dead. Not sure how it will play out for the Rebels crew.
Did Maul die? I thought that his fate at the end of the Son of Dathomir comic was him fleeing Dathomir. I don't believe he died.


I thought Dooku killed him, but it's been a while...
redline248
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Anthology films are a good place for Kanan/Ezra/Asohka to show up. The Rebels series is probably going to lead into them finding out about the Death Star and setting up the strategy to steal the plans. The interesting thing will be to see what happens with the show after Rogue one drops. In theory, I would suspect the end of Rogue one will be the final days/hours before the very beginning of A New Hope. So, what happens to Kanan's crew after that?
redline248
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quote:
quote:
quote:
All of the major characters from the Clone Wars who might have an impact going forward ended up dead. Savage Opress, Ventress, the revived Darth Maul, etc. all ended up dead. Not sure how it will play out for the Rebels crew.
Did Maul die? I thought that his fate at the end of the Son of Dathomir comic was him fleeing Dathomir. I don't believe he died.


I thought Dooku killed him, but it's been a while...
In the Clone Wars series, it appears Maul survived, and then showed up in some comics, in which Palpatine whipped his ass again, and he escaped again. All of that according to a brief skimming of wookiepedia. There doesn't appear to be any info on when/how he died.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
Anthology films are a good place for Kanan/Ezra/Asohka to show up. The Rebels series is probably going to lead into them finding out about the Death Star and setting up the strategy to steal the plans. The interesting thing will be to see what happens with the show after Rogue one drops. In theory, I would suspect the end of Rogue one will be the final days/hours before the very beginning of A New Hope. So, what happens to Kanan's crew after that?
FWIW, Gareth Edwards has been pretty adamant about there not being any force users swooping in to save the day in Rogue One. That doesn't mean that Vader won't show up and decimate the field of battle. It's not that I diagree with the point, I just don't think Ezra, Kanan, or Ahsoka are going to show up in Rogue one.

Filoni originally had planned to run TCW up to about Order 66 (perhaps a little beyond it as some Jedi would have escaped the purge). I think the goal of Rebels is perhaps to go a little past ANH and the destruction of the first Death Star.
redline248
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I have no problems with leaving out the force users for Rogue One.

As to the timeline for Rebels, they basically are going to have time for like one more season.
jabberwalkie09
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quote:
As to the timeline for Rebels, they basically are going to have time for like one more season.
They already have started production on the third season. I think if they want to wrap things up and it doesn't do that by the end of the third season, a small order for a fourth season would work IMO.

edit: And where Rebels falls into continuity is that it is detailing the days of the rebellion before they became a cohesive force.
AliasMan02
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Yep. I recall now that Maul did escape, though I doubt we hear from him again.
aarjon
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I rewatched it and two things I picked up, not sure if already discussed:
Maz tells Rey whenever she turns down the light saber, "you're waiting for someone, they're not coming back...but there is someone else"

This makes me think she's not lukes daughter.

Han tells Kylo "snoke is using you for your power, when the time comes he will crush you and you know it"
I took it as snoke would kill him when he has a stronger apprentice, maybe Rey?
Ulrich
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I don't think there is any point to referencing the Rule of Two.

The Rule of Two was broken in the OT; Lucas didn't invent it until Phantom. It has been shattered many times over: in the OT (attempts to win over Luke with Leia on deck), PT (overlap of Plagueis/Sidious/Maul/Dooku/Anakin at various times), Clone Wars (Ventress, Opress, Dooku, Sidious, Maul), and EU.

I bring up the EU because though it has been retired, a lot of the books do a good job of explaining why the rule would never work: even if it's an "official" Sith rule, the Sith would ignore it any time it became convenient. Neither the particular rule nor the idea of following rules is consistent with who the Sith are. They'll always squirrel away allies and apprentices.
TelcoAg
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quote:
I rewatched it and two things I picked up, not sure if already discussed:
Maz tells Rey whenever she turns down the light saber, "you're waiting for someone, they're not coming back...but there is someone else"

This makes me think she's not lukes daughter.


This could just as easily mean that she doesnt know who her father is, and the vision scene where she's crying on Jakku watching a ship leave the planet, as young Rey, could be her mother or someone else close to her leaving.
Atreides Ornithopter
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quote:
quote:
I rewatched it and two things I picked up, not sure if already discussed:
Maz tells Rey whenever she turns down the light saber, "you're waiting for someone, they're not coming back...but there is someone else"

This makes me think she's not lukes daughter.


This could just as easily mean that she doesnt know who her father is, and the vision scene where she's crying on Jakku watching a ship leave the planet, as young Rey, could be her mother or someone else close to her leaving.
What I told you was true, from a certain point of view
onceaggie
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The storyline was weak and the movie was just a copy of return of the jedi.
redline248
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The entire point of the Rule of Two was to prevent a bunch of Sith running around squabbling over power, hindering their overall strength, and to stay hidden from the Jedi. The master taught an apprentice as much as possible and when the apprentice thought he/she was strong enough would overthrow the master or be killed attempting it. Both parties knew the stakes, so it was obvious they would seek out replacements.

The thing that, in my opinion, stays consistent with only two is that even though they sought other apprentices, none were ever full Sith, until the master or apprentice was dead. Despite other potential replacements, there were only ever 2 Sith at any time.

Palpatine started looking at Anakin to replace Dooku bc he knew Dooku was so old already that he'd never be able to continue the line or train someone fully. He used him to consolidate the separatist movement. Once he felt that Anakin could be turned, he orchestrated events so Dooku would be dead and he could focus his efforts on Anakin.

Meanwhile, Dooku starts thinking about overthrowing Palpatine, and picks Savage to train. Easier to kill the master with some help than it is by yourself. Too bad for Dooku, Maul shows back, gets Savage to side with him and tries to kill Dooku. So much for Dooku overthrowing Palpatine. Had Maul beaten Dooku, either he and Savage kill Palpatine and become the 2, or Palpatine kills them both and continues his plans for Anakin.

Once Anakin turns, he immediately goes and gets his arms and legs cut off, which kind of puts a ceiling on how powerful he can become. Too bad, there's no one left to turn, so Palpatine keeps him around bc he's still pretty much the most powerful force user alive.

But what's this? Luke Skywalker hits the scene and now Palpatine has a suitable replacement. Get rid of Vader, teach Luke...still 2. Vader had the same plan. Turn Luke, join up to kill the emperor...still 2.
 
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