*** STAR WARS: THE FORCE AWAKENS Spoiler Discussion/Reactions ***

413,381 Views | 2952 Replies | Last: 6 yr ago by Philip J Fry
mjpfeffer98
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1:35a, 12/21/15
AG
To be fair about Rey's use of the force so quickly. They did address it, albeit not directly. Snoke even said to Kylo Ren - "There has been an awakening.." and "Even you are not ready for this..." or something along those lines.

Why would he think Ren isn't ready for this awakening unless he can tell that Rey is incredibly powerful with the force. If she was just a regular force noob, I don't think the two of them would be that concerned.

I agree, it seemed slightly contrived, but this is a movie, not a history of the force and its use - and they only had slightly more than 2 hours to tell the story, so I can forgive it.
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TCTTS
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In reply to mjpfeffer98 • 1:43a, 12/21/15
AG
True, but even Luke had a pretty big learning curve. I get exactly where you're coming from, though. Most of it I had no problem with it. The big one for me, though, for whatever reason, was when Rey just automatically knew to pull the Jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper. As I mentioned, Luke at least had the advantage of seeing Obi-Wan do it first. He knew because of that that it could be done. Here, Rey just... knew. And yes, I guess you could argue that the Force has come back bigger/faster/stronger this go around, but again, I needed Abrams to give me more of a hint that that is, in fact, the case. Just a hint. Rather than the radio silence / we'll-cover-that-in-the-next-installment we continued to get over and over in that regard during TFA.
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TheEyeGuy
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1:56a, 12/21/15
AG
The mind trick is what convinces me that she had some sort of training early on. This isn't her first rodeo with the force, even if she doesn't remember it all.
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DB Coach
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2:05a, 12/21/15
AG
I don't get how people that watched the movie that they were looking at a real Snoke instead of a hologram. It was obvious, especially when it flickered out because he turned it off.

And while the whole thing with Luke's lightsaber being stuck away like that is disappointing, it was obvious that this was when we first see Rey's connection to the force. She began hearing children crying/screaming....which was when Anakin killed all the younglings. She was hearing/seeing the past; then it really washed over her with Obi-Wan calling her name and all the flashbacks as she opened the crate.

I absolutely love the new cast, especially Rey and Finn.
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DB Coach
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2:08a, 12/21/15
AG
I think it is entirely possible that she learned "something" from Ben during the torture scene where he tried to probe her mind, but it worked in the exact opposite way (her probing his mind).

One other thing, Maz told Rey how to use the force, or at least how to feel it.
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TCTTS
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2:14a, 12/21/15
AG

quote:
I don't get how people that watched the movie that they were looking at a real Snoke instead of a hologram. It was obvious, especially when it flickered out because he turned it off.
The fact that flicker was so quick - it was blink-and-you'll-miss-it fast - combined with the fact that it didn't have the electric haze and skip of past holograms, just went right over a lot of people. I've seen the confusion online, and, like I said, more than a few people I talked to had no clue.
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TCTTS
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In reply to DB Coach • 2:17a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
I think it is entirely possible that she learned "something" from Ben during the torture scene where he tried to probe her mind, but it worked in the exact opposite way (her probing his mind).

One other thing, Maz told Rey how to use the force, or at least how to feel it.
I can definitely buy that. Still, it should have been more apparent somehow. I'm not one for holding the audience's hand, but it just wasn't clear at all.
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TelcoAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 2:21a, 12/21/15
AG
I don't think "they're saving it for episode VIII" should be so easily dismissed as a valid rationale for many of the gaps in the plots that currently exist. They've gone into this knowing they're writing a trilogy, and knew they were writing this one as a bridge between the old, established characters, and the new unknown ones.

I think explanations of things like Maz having the lightsaber were unnecessary to keep the storyline moving in this film, and would have backstories that se underserved by trying to spit them out in 2 ones of dialogue. I'd rather see Luke talking to Maz about this than Rey/Han if there's an impactful story arc involved.

Your gripe about not knowing anything about the origins of and current conflict between the FO/NR are legitimate. They should have, and could easily have, handled that in the opening scroll.

There were definitely some lazy plot elements involved in this that were only there to get the characters where they wanted them to be. The star killer stuff really was, to me, a way for them to just blow up any of the political junk from pat story arcs. Whether or not this laziness serves the trilogy well, we'll see.

Regarding Rey's power, it's clear that she's knowledgable about the Jedi and their powers. She's thought Luke was a myth, so she'd heard the legends. I think that's why she gave mind control a shot, and didn't see that as a large hole in the plot at all.

Conveniences like Han being right there didn't bother me much. I'd rather believe in destiny/fate than see Rey and Finn go into a cantina and to find Han shooting Greedo again.

In the end, I'm taking the approach of being extremely forgiving with this movie, because I can't imagine trying to get the main story arc setup and moving, start the process of establishing key characters, and deal with the nostalgia of the OT characters for a movie that has to bring in a new generation of fans without ostracizing the old one, and squeeze all that into 2 1/2 hours. I think they were extremely gunshy regarding resistance and empire politics, and opted to stay as far away from it as they could here. It was probably too far, but I don't blame them.

To me, a lot of this story feels like watching a card trick. I may know exactly which card the magician is going to show me, but that doesn't mean I won't enjoy the show he puts on to get there.
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mjpfeffer98
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2:41a, 12/21/15
AG
As far as Han finding the MF - they talked about needed a "clean ship" to move people around - so there is obviously some kind of transponder/tracking device in these ships, so I guess if you're Han and you lost your ship - you'd always be on the lookout for it to pop up in whatever tracking system they use.

Obviously it was convenient that it happened that way, but again - it's a movie.

I'm more curious as to what got cut to make the running time 2:15 - I'm betting at least some rudimentary exposition got cut just to keep the movie from being 2.5+ hours long.
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TCTTS
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In reply to TelcoAg • 2:43a, 12/21/15
AG

quote:
I think explanations of things like Maz having the lightsaber were unnecessary to keep the storyline moving in this film, and would have backstories that se underserved by trying to spit them out in 2 ones of dialogue. I'd rather see Luke talking to Maz about this than Rey/Han if there's an impactful story arc involved.
But see, that's my whole point... I didn't want an explanation as to why Maz had the lightsaber. Rather, I wanted the lightsaber to be inserted organically into the plot in a completely different manner. In some instances, yes, I'm looking for a bit more explanation. But in other instances, like this one, it simply needed to be something totally different. The finding-of-the-lightsaber should have been more ingrained to the mechanics of the plot and motivations of the characters. Instead, it was like this random, out-of-no-where, second McGuffin.


quote:
Regarding Rey's power, it's clear that she's knowledgable about the Jedi and their powers. She's thought Luke was a myth, so she'd heard the legends. I think that's why she gave mind control a shot, and didn't see that as a large hole in the plot at all.
I can buy that. I didn't think of Luke-using-Jedi-mind-tricks as something that would be part of the legend. Makes sense.


quote:
Conveniences like Han being right there didn't bother me much. I'd rather believe in destiny/fate than see Rey and Finn go into a cantina and to find Han shooting Greedo again.

Again, I don't think it's either-or like that. There was a way to have Han either having already tracked the Millennium Falcon to Jakku, or go even more extreme and just not have him have lost it in the first place (and maybe Rey has to pilot it because Han gets hurt or something). It's like Abrams wrote the "Chewie, we're home" line/moment and worked backwards from there, forcing everything else to work around it.
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TelcoAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 2:43a, 12/21/15
AG
Read last post and agree on the clunky nature of how plot elements were inserted. Hopefully they'll make amends for it in 8, or the director's cut shows us a better film
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TCTTS
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In reply to TelcoAg • 2:49a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
One other thing regarding the conveniences, I just can't help but think that the success of the franchise created an artificially high bar for insight that no one previously needed.

Princess Leia's crew is stopped near the surface of the exact planet she needs her droid with a secret message to get to. (Thank goodness these droids escaped when a dumbass who apparently didn't know droids existed and could launch an escape pod) This droid gets captured by Jawa traders that end up selling them to the uncle of the kid under the care of the man the message is meant for.

Many things are convenient, but I'll definitely grant you that this movie did a clunky job of using them in a number of spots.
And I totally get that. But why is that an excuse for the filmmakers to not try harder this go around? Audiences are smarter. Narratives have evolved. So why not just put in a little extra effort? I don't understand why people keep making excuses for this kind of convenient storytelling. Besides, it's not asking for much. This is the kind of stuff that can be solved in a couple extra weeks of writing.
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TCTTS
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2:49a, 12/21/15
AG
^ Typed that while you must have been posting, Telco.
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TCTTS
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In reply to TelcoAg • 2:51a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
Read last post and agree on the clunky nature of how plot elements were inserted. Hopefully they'll make amends for it in 8, or the director's cut shows us a better film
And yes, if anything, I'm incredibly interested in the deleted scenes Abrams has said will make their way to the Blu-ray. I have a feeling some of this will definitely be addressed.
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TelcoAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 2:52a, 12/21/15
AG
Actually deleted my comment because I agree with you. It could have been much better. Hell, even the Maz scene could have been better if Maz, who recognized the force in Rey, just gave her the lightsaber instead of Rey wandering the tunnels to find it.

Almost would have been better to see it up on the pawn shop wall and have Han barter for it.
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TelcoAg
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In reply to mjpfeffer98 • 2:54a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
I'm more curious as to what got cut to make the running time 2:15 - I'm betting at least some rudimentary exposition got cut just to keep the movie from being 2.5+ hours long.


Yeah, I can't help but think the extended version will exonerate Abrams and put the blame squarely on Disney for trimming it down to maximize showings.
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TCTTS
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In reply to TelcoAg • 2:55a, 12/21/15
AG
Agreed. Even Maz actually giving it to Rey would have been a vast improvement. Which reminds me, that shot from trailer two of Maz's orange hand giving the lightsaber to Leia's hand wasn't in the final cut of the movie. I really do feel like a lot of Luke's lightsaber stuff was cut out or reshot for whatever reason. Interested to hopefully see more of that in the deleted scenes.
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TelcoAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 3:17a, 12/21/15
AG
The more I think about this movie, the more I get why JJ took his name off the list for VIII pretty quick. If a 2 hour and 45 minute extended release comes out that fills in a bunch of holes with much needed dialogue, then we can assume the final product got murdered by bean counters and marketing majors.

Things like C-3PO clearly didn't need to be involved at all, nor did R2D2 really, but gotta remind people that they're still there so they can sell that merchandise. I guarantee the run-time had a hard ceiling on it to optimize weekend multiplex ticket sales, so you have to wonder just how much of that time was eaten up by a desire to sell X-Wings and Tie-fighters, droids and stormtrooper axes. Kids aren't going to buy Maz dolls, so I'm sure she saw some cuts in favor of BB-8 thumping down the stairs.
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heddleston
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5:13a, 12/21/15
AG
I'm with you fellas.

Plot holes, contrivances, and rehashes of old plots? You betcha. But yeah i just dont know for sure how you write this movie without having to allow for all the nostalgia stuff, which is in some ways largely responsible for most of the quibbles we have with it. Some stuff could have been avoided, but not all of it i think.

That being said, i had a crap load of fun and cant wait to see it again. We had a power outage in our theater in the middle of the vision sequence and had to wait 15 minutes for the movie to come back and i still had a blast. Glad youre back, Star Wars. Glad youre back.
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AgMarauder04
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In reply to TCTTS • 5:33a, 12/21/15
AG
Jesus dude. You might not have wanted to crap all over the movie, but you just became the worst critic of the movie. . Good Lord.

You can't have come to all that on a causal viewing unless you were SEARCHING for things wrong with it.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to AgMarauder04 • 6:32a, 12/21/15
AG
I sort of have to agree.

It seems like you wanted to find things to be wrong with it, or were expecting perfection.

There were minor things that were bumps and what not, but your review doesn't even cover things like the ridiculousness of the other smugglers and the squid things.
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The Collective
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7:05a, 12/21/15
AG
Damn. This is one reason I'm glad my job isn't in the industry. I'd kick myself in the nuts if I couldn't sit back and watch a movie for enjoyment.
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jr15aggie
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7:30a, 12/21/15
AG
I definitely see a lot of over analysis going on. I think if you are that big of a Star Wars geek you have to give them some time to release more books to explain some of this. In terms of the movie, I think you have to take the audiences knowledge into account here. The whole Rey mind trick worked, IMO, because the audience was educated on such things in previous movies. We don't need an explanation. We've seen it before so we accept it, and I think she did a good job acting here... You see her reaching out and you know the second she realizes she can touch his mind.

And Her doing that with no training isn't much different than Luke deflecting blaster shots (while blind) the same day he heard about "the force". I personally take it as "watch out, we got a bad ass over here!" Excited to see what she can do.
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YouBet
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7:32a, 12/21/15
AG
I mostly agree with TC. The more time I've had to reflect on it the more disappointed I am about the movie. Love the characters and their individual roles but the plot was pretty average. Thinking back to my feelings when I walked out of the movie it was more "meh" than "Yes!"

Still had a blast watching it but I agree with an earlier post that said 7 could ultimately become forgettable once we get the other movies in play. This one could simply be a decent but disappointing appetizer compared to all of the courses ahead of us.
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YouBet
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7:38a, 12/21/15
AG
One other thing to note here....this Star Wars story is now being told across multiple media channels so there might be somewhat of an expectation by Disney (and completely unrealistic for most people) that folks have to consume all of this other material to get the complete picture if you will. Almost as if....hey, if you really want to know the whole story then you need to be reading the books, watching Rebels, etc all to get that money from you.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:44a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
True, but even Luke had a pretty big learning curve. I get exactly where you're coming from, though. Most of it I had no problem with it. The big one for me, though, for whatever reason, was when Rey just automatically knew to pull the Jedi mind trick on that stormtrooper. As I mentioned, Luke at least had the advantage of seeing Obi-Wan do it first. He knew because of that that it could be done. Here, Rey just... knew. And yes, I guess you could argue that the Force has come back bigger/faster/stronger this go around, but again, I needed Abrams to give me more of a hint that that is, in fact, the case. Just a hint. Rather than the radio silence / we'll-cover-that-in-the-next-installment we continued to get over and over in that regard during TFA.

Ok but.....Rey might have known all of those stories. Remember when she and Finn are on the MF and meet Han and Chewie BEFORE she does any of that and BEFORE she touches the light saber and Maz talks to her...Han tells her that all the stories about the Jedi and the force are true.

Perhaps she KNOWS all the stories about mind tricks and what Jedis can do. We don't really know her background of course, but maybe she has been told about or read about the Jedi a lot. Whereas Luke knew nothing.

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Bruce Almighty
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7:45a, 12/21/15
AG
I don't think we need all the answers right now. They'll come with other movies. This is just 1/3 of a story. It's no different than the original trillogy.

And I also believe that Rey has already been trained in the force.
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Texaggie7nine
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In reply to TCTTS • 7:47a, 12/21/15
As one who usually is very annoyed by overly simplified coincidences in movies, I have to say that the ones you bring up didn't really bother me that much. To me they were so perfectly timed that it leaves no other conclusion that the force was involved in one way or another. Be it Luke himself bringing them together or the force in Rey or the force in general. Those things were all things that had to happen so that Rey would find Luke. Just like the droids in ep IV had to find Luke in order for him to find Obiwan. I think the force guides events in that universe.

As for Luke's saber. Wasn't it in the original Jedi temple that was full of Jedi artifacts? Seems like the most logical place for it. And Rey didn't stumvle on it. She was called to it.
7nine
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The Collective
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7:55a, 12/21/15
AG
If you listen to the Ticket in Dallas, here is TC's movie review podcast for TFA (TC usually has profanity in his podcasts - just a warning):
http://tcsmoviepodcast.com/2015/12/tcmp-33-star-wars-the-force-awakens-w-justin-bell/
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Flashdiaz
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8:00a, 12/21/15
AG
So, why did they go to Maz's in the first place? wasn't it to get a 'clean' ship? Maybe i'm missing something but they didn't exactly avoid using the Falcon after that... they used it to sneak onto the first order planet and they used it to go find Luke (both times they could have used a different ship). Two major blunders if the Falcon was being tracked.

Maybe, Han just needed an excuse to see Maz. Maybe he knew the lightsaber was there and was taking Rey to it because he knows more about her than we know at this point. </crazytheory>
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tx4guns
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8:01a, 12/21/15
AG
Han mentioned that some thought Luke went to the original Jedi temple, so maybe Maz's place was originally the Jedi temple and Luke left the lightsaber there knowing people would come there looking for him. Just a thought.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Texaggie7nine • 8:07a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
As one who usually is very annoyed by overly simplified coincidences in movies, I have to say that the ones you bring up didn't really bother me that much. To me they were so perfectly timed that it leaves no other conclusion that the force was involved in one way or another. Be it Luke himself bringing them together or the force in Rey or the force in general. Those things were all things that had to happen so that Rey would find Luke. Just like the droids in ep IV had to find Luke in order for him to find Obiwan. I think the force guides events in that universe.

As for Luke's saber. Wasn't it in the original Jedi temple that was full of Jedi artifacts? Seems like the most logical place for it. And Rey didn't stumble on it. She was called to it.

Agreed completely none of those coincidences bothered me....not near as much as


  • the FO building a bigger death star, nobody can come up with any other weapon?
  • 30 years later and Admiral Akbar and Nien Numb are still in the same positions ,does nobody but Leia get promoted or retire?
  • Kylo Ren decides he doesn't need the droid because he has Rey and she has seen the map...really???
  • Kylo Ren then pulls a James Bond and leaves the captive alone conveniently so she can escape...in fact he ironically leaves her guarded only by James Bond (Daniel Craig playing the Storm Trooper)

None of those can be excused by the force guiding things or can be explained in back story, thats just lazy.....but still I loved it.
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mjpfeffer98
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In reply to Flashdiaz • 8:07a, 12/21/15
AG
Well, a lot changed after they went to Maz's - they weren't expecting to get attacked by Kylo and have Rey captured and the whole place destroyed. Maybe they were planning on getting a clean ship until all that happened.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to mjpfeffer98 • 8:09a, 12/21/15
AG
quote:
Well, a lot changed after they went to Maz's - they weren't expecting to get attacked by Kylo and have Rey captured and the whole place destroyed. Maybe they were planning on getting a clean ship until all that happened.
...and it wasn't that they were tracked there by the MF tracking....apparently....

it was the people in the bar reporting their position that drew the FO there.
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mjpfeffer98
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 8:10a, 12/21/15
AG
Yep.
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