**Official Game of Thrones: Season 5 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)**

342,251 Views | 2543 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by Al Bula
Fat Bib Fortuna
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Jeez, you know we need another book or episode when we're fighting over the true identity of a bird.

Jon Snow looking a bit suspicious of his brothers, who appeared at least somwhat armed, in a preview picture from Episode 9.



DTP02
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If the Raven is anythijng other than a normal raven, I will be shocked.


Yeah my skepticism is skewed from Harry Potter. I was convinced the Phoenix in dumbledores office named ****es was really snape who was a animagi like Harry's father and his classmates Sirius, Remus and Peter Pettigrew. Went so far as to research and snape and ****es were never present in his office at the same time. Turns out he was just a very emotional and well informed Phoenix.
Lol TexAgs censors Fawkes.
That's hardly surprising, given TexAgs staff's widely known support of King James I.
LawAg05
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In Bran's dream with the three-eyed crow(BR), the crow asks him if he has any corn. That's a coincidental link between Bloodraven and Mormont's raven which is constantly asking for corn.

Wouldn't all trained ravens, if they could talk, ask their human masters for corn?
This isn't a trained raven. This is the three eyed crow speaking to Bran in a vision. The fact that the three eyed crow asks for the same treat as Mormont's raven is significant. The fact that Mormont's raven asks for corn is not significant by itself. Here, the entity we know to be Bloodraven is communicating with Bran and asks for the same thing that Mormont's raven asks for. Why? GRRM is big on foreshadowing and subtle clues. This is simply one of those.

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When the wight attacked Mormont, the raven started sqwaking "Burn" i.e. exactly what Jon needed to do to kill the wight and save his life. That's huge and can't be explained by simply repeating words.
Bloodraven knows that fire kills wights:
Quote:Jon tried to shout, but his voice was gone. Staggering to his feet, he kicked the arm away and snatched the lamp from the Old Bear's fingers. The flame flickered and almost died. "Burn!" the raven cawed. "Burn, burn, burn!"He says burn after Jon picks up the lamp. Could it be possible that the bird associates flame with the word 'burn?'
It could, but this is a castle in a winter tundra. They have to almost always be using lamps and torches, right? This is the first time the raven says anything about it. Why now? Shouldn't he be squawking on about burning every time someone tries to light one or picks it up? He doesn't. He uses the word here without parroting what anyone said and it just so happens to be the only way to kill the wight. Thats too big of a coincidence imo.

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After Jon has the dream where he is holding a red flaming sword and fighting the undead, he wakes up with the raven on his chest. This implies BR has some connection to the dreams. Dreams have been sent to other characters in this story too, so it isn't that unusual. See Quaithe & Dany. Also, the raven then says Jon's full name and flat out calls him "King."
If Jon is AA reborn, like many believe, he won't ever become a king. Also, one has to first believe the connection b/w the bird and bloodraven to consider this encounter as implication that bloodraven is connected to the dreams. Does bloodraven also control Jon's wolf dreams or Arya's?
Whether or not he sits the iron throne is irrelevant. He is the rightful Targaryan king by blood. Bloodraven knows that and points it out.

With respect to wolf dreams, those seem to be unconscious warging by the Starks and there is no evidence BR is behind it. In the wolf dreams they just run around as wolves. In all likelihood they are just warging in their sleep. The dream I am talking about (and Dany's dream with Quaithe) is chalked full of visions and deeper meaning. It seems that visions can be sent through dreams i.e. the AA dream or Dany's dream with Quaithe. But to imply that BR controls all dreams is a silly attempt to marginalize the argument.
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The Longclaw = Blackfyre theory might not be true, but Mormont's raven having special significance and/or tied to Bloodraven is almost canon. Not even close to "almost canon"
Disagree. I would offer to make a wager with you, loser donates to the 12th man foundation, but there is a danger Martin doesn't finish the books for another 10+ years, if ever.

Regardless, here is some more textual support for you, just to ensure my last couple work days have been some of my least productive, ever:

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Ghost was the only protection Jon needed; the direwolf could sniff out foes, even those who hid their enmity behind sly smiles. Ghost was gone, though. Jon peeled off one black glove, put two fingers in his mouth, and whistled. "Ghost! To me." From above came the sudden sound of wings. Mormont's raven flapped from a limb of an old oak to perch upon Jon's saddle. "Corn, it cried. "*Corn, corn, corn."
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The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the room to the other, past the cold forge and back again. "Easy Ghost," Jon called. "Down. Sit, Ghost. Down." Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf blistered and bared his teeth.It's that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. Mormont's raven seemed agitated too. "Snow," the bird kept screaming. "Snow, snow, snow." Jon shooed him off had Satin start a fire, then sent him out after Bowen Marsh and Othell Yarwyk.
The first passage is GRRM foreshadowing the raven's significance to Jon. Martin talks about Ghost as a protector for Jon, then the raven just happens to come to Jon after this little internal dialogue about Ghost being his ally.

The second passage is more of the same. Ghost AND the raven are agitated by Bowen Marsh. Jon doesn't get the warning, and he gets stabbed by Marsh shortly after this, but the fact that both Ghost and the raven are agitated by Jon's proximity to danger indicates Ghost is more than just a wolf and the raven is more than just a raven.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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The dream I am talking about (and Dany's dream with Quaithe) is chalked full of visions and deeper meaning.
MW03
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I'm starting to worry that Jon's really gone, GRRM killed another badass, and we're going to get confirmation of that within the next 2 weeks. I've been living with this idea of resurrected Jon/warged ghost Jon so long that I have almost taken it as fact, and I rarely consider that he's about to be killed off the series.

If he does die, and they do bring him back, though...

Agustus Caesar
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SpreadsheetAg
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I just came across an interesting theory on reddit while looking up the Jon death stuff in the book. I'm sure many of you all have heard it, but there is a theory that Stannis was actually the one who wrote the "Pink Letter" with the help of Theon.

Link
Isn't it more likely that it's Abel/ Mance? Stannis could be dead... And Ramsay could be dead. Abel is the known mummer with the ability to make a forgery like this.

Could also be Theon
SpreadsheetAg
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There is also compelling evidence that it's Reek & Asha together
mid90
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There is also compelling evidence that it's Reek & Asha together

Interesting theory, but I just can't buy the fact that Reek/Theon has enough to gumption to write a letter that will bring Jon Snow/Night's Watch down on the Boltons. He had to be prodded at spearpoint by Mance's spearwives just to get "Arya" and escape. There's no way he suddenly has the guts to completely turn against his old master.
SpreadsheetAg
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There could be a million different reasons why any house acquired a sword before another. Maybe a Mormont did some favor to an old Valyrian noble across the sea.

As to why he gave it to Jon. He has no other sons, took Jon as his steward to teach him how to command...maybe he looked at Jon as his adopted son of the watch.
Maybe VS swords were so common back then that Kings and High House Lords were buried with them; and it wasn't until after the Doom that they were handed down to preserve them?

Or maybe the Kings and lords of the North had other swords besides Ice before Ice was forged?
SpreadsheetAg
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There is also compelling evidence that it's Reek & Asha together

Interesting theory, but I just can't buy the fact that Reek/Theon has enough to gumption to write a letter that will bring Jon Snow/Night's Watch down on the Boltons. He had to be prodded at spearpoint by Mance's spearwives just to get "Arya" and escape. There's no way he suddenly has the guts to completely turn against his old master.
Didn't he spill his guts to Asha in the Theon I teaser chapter of TWOW?
SpreadsheetAg
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My wife (non-reader) had an interesting question if anyone knows the answer.

What happened to the baby boys Craster gave to the WW? Did they eat them? Did they raise them to become the Others?

I told her I had no idea and that the book really doesn't reveal much about the WW in general. Any thoughts?
Books do not answer this question. In the TV series, they are converted to White Walkers by some sort of WW upper caste priests
What if it turns out the WW are the "good guys"?

Or the "Night" God is the good God?


The Night's King is apparently an old Crow Lord Commander #13. Night's Watch. Night's King. Lord of Darkness (night). Bran being told not to fear the dark.
SpreadsheetAg
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Re: Joer's Raven saying "King"

Whoa!
OnlyForNow
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I was thinking about that. If the "OTHER" is bad that means bloodraven is bad, which means he is fighting his own family line potentially in Dany.
mid90
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If Bloodrave/Bran are on the side of the "Other", then why did the wights try to kill them as they were going into Bloodraven's cave?
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag
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Yeah, I've never understood the theory that the three-eyed crow and the children of the forest are on the side of the others, the children of the forest helped the First Men fight the WWs.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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Episode 10 synopsis from DVR guide - Stannis Baratheon commences his march; Daenerys Targaryen is encircled by a group of strangers; Cersei Lannister is able to overcome her sundry of emotions and appeals for forgiveness; Jon Snow confronts a life-changing challenge.
W.C. Griffin '09
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quote:
Episode 10 synopsis from DVR guide - Stannis Baratheon commences his march; Daenerys Targaryen is encircled by a group of strangers; Cersei Lannister is able to overcome her sundry of emotions and appeals for forgiveness; Jon Snow confronts a life-changing challenge.


A knife in the abdomen or chest is pretty life-changing
ellebee
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Life changing as in he goes from alive to dead? Life changing as in not the same person when he is resurrected? Hmmmm....
Zombie Jon Snow
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Life changing as in he goes from alive to dead? Life changing as in not the same person when he is resurrected? Hmmmm....
either way...me thinks the interwebs are gonna be freakin out again.

ellebee
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Life changing as in he goes from alive to dead? Life changing as in not the same person when he is resurrected? Hmmmm....
either way...me thinks the interwebs are gonna be freakin out again.




Oh please let this happen! Although if he really is dead dead and isn't resurrected by the end of the finale then we will be freaking out right along with them!
mid90
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Life changing challenge =letter from Sansa saying "please save me "?

Jon musters the wildlings + some of the NW to attack Winterfell, which is then the last straw for Ser Alliser, Ollie, etc. Who then stab him?
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ellebee
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I'm on the fence now about ollie. Part of me thinks his talk with Sam cemented ollie's decision to knife him, but then I think another poster mentioned that's the obvious path and maybe he'll do the unexpected by trying to save him. Oh maybe ollie gets killed trying to help him. Who knows...
Zombie Jon Snow
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non readers thread is not prepared...they are concentrating on the jon is half targaryen thing...from maester aemon talking about targaryens every time just before jon walks in....of course i think someone "predicted"/"spoilered" that many pages ago.....trying to look smart....

bangobango
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I'm going to be disappointed if Jon doesn't get stabbed in tonight's episode. The ninth episode has either had a shocking death or a huge battle every year - Ned's execution, Battle of Blackwater Bay, Red Wedding, & the Battle at the Wall.

If they keep with past seasons, then tonight's episode is going to have a lot of fireworks. The previews showing Dany in the ring being attacked by Harpies and the episode guide saying that Dany witnesses a celebration of athleticism makes me think the big scene will be the Harpies attacking her and not Jon's death. I am going to be really frustrated if they kill him in the 10th episode and leave it like that for the next year. It is looking like that is what they're going to do, though. Jon will decide to go to Winterfell and then he'll get stabbed. Season will end with him dying or dead. Cersie will take her **** walk and Arya will kill that King's Guard and probably go blind. Stannis will be on the march for Winterfell.

From that episode guide, it sounds like the series will leave off in exactly the same point as the books.
bangobango
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Here is the episode nine guide: Stannis confronts a troubling decision. Jon returns to the Wall. Mace visits the Iron Bank. Arya encounters someone from her past. Dany reluctantly oversees a traditional celebration of athleticism.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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I will probably be dead wrong, but I keep thinking Alliser Thorne won't be part of whatever happens to Jon. He might oppose his decisions but he's a knight and he's been in the Watch for a good long while (is there a reason why he's there?) He may be an a-hole, but he's duty-bound. Just doesn't seem like his character.
PascalsWager
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Mace visits the Iron Bank.

This is what I'm looking forward to the most. Just might be enough comedy to save tonight's Silicon Valley on the DVR for next week.
Fat Bib Fortuna
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Would love the Iron Bank to take Mace hostage and hold him for ransom until the throne starts paying off its debt; they send word to KL that they have Mace and the response is, "Eh, whatever."
Saxsoon
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What time does GoT air in the Central Timezone. Just curious as I am a pacific coaster
SoTXAg09
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8pm
jenn96
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Alister Thorne was a major Targaryan supporter during RR and was sent to the wall in lieu of execution. That's one of the big reasons he hated Jon so much from the start, he wasn't a big Stark fan. No idea if that was even mentioned on the show but that's why he's on the wall.

However, Thorne has always struck me as a major a-hole and hardazz but a genuinely honorable man. Like a modern day drill sergeant who treats his men like utter crap to toughen them up so that can survive the war to come. Not nice at all, but that's his job. And he genuine supports the Watch and respects the chain of command. I feel like that's come across in the show as well.

Honestly, if Jon is attacked I see Thorne being a lot more likely to try to save Jon than to kill him. He's the Lord Commander. If they just summarily execute Jon, with no trial or hearing, then they're no better than the Wildlings, to a man like Thorne.
mid90
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quote:
Alister Thorne was a major Targaryan supporter during RR and was sent to the wall in lieu of execution. That's one of the big reasons he hated Jon so much from the start, he wasn't a big Stark fan. No idea if that was even mentioned on the show but that's why he's on the wall.

However, Thorne has always struck me as a major a-hole and hardazz but a genuinely honorable man. Like a modern day drill sergeant who treats his men like utter crap to toughen them up so that can survive the war to come. Not nice at all, but that's his job. And he genuine supports the Watch and respects the chain of command. I feel like that's come across in the show as well.

Honestly, if Jon is attacked I see Thorne being a lot more likely to try to save Jon than to kill him. He's the Lord Commander. If they just summarily execute Jon, with no trial or hearing, then they're no better than the Wildlings, to a man like Thorne.

Alliser Thorne is the show seems very much like the character you describe. But in the books, he seems very petty.


But it would be awesome to see him become Jon's biggest supporter when it's revealed he's a Targ.
AggieHank86
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quote:
Alister Thorne was a major Targaryan supporter during RR and was sent to the wall in lieu of execution. That's one of the big reasons he hated Jon so much from the start, he wasn't a big Stark fan. No idea if that was even mentioned on the show but that's why he's on the wall.

However, Thorne has always struck me as a major a-hole and hardazz but a genuinely honorable man. Like a modern day drill sergeant who treats his men like utter crap to toughen them up so that can survive the war to come. Not nice at all, but that's his job. And he genuine supports the Watch and respects the chain of command. I feel like that's come across in the show as well.

Honestly, if Jon is attacked I see Thorne being a lot more likely to try to save Jon than to kill him. He's the Lord Commander. If they just summarily execute Jon, with no trial or hearing, then they're no better than the Wildlings, to a man like Thorne.
I tend to agree with your analysis of Thorne, except the highlighted language.

Ser Alister was hardly a "major supporter" of the Targaryens.

Remember that Robert gave all of the Lords and members of the great Houses the option of bending the knee in exchange for a pardon.

Ser Alister was not a Lord ... only a knight in service to House Thorne. It is never stated explicitly, but he was probably a younger son of a younger son or some such. House Thorne itself seems to have been rather insignificant, holding its fief in the Crownlands.

Ser Alister was one of the defenders of Kings Landing when Tywin took the city. Lord Tywin gave him the Wall or Death option (apparently along with all highborn defenders too-insignificant to warrant earning a pardon by bending the knee).

I suspect that "being too unimportant to bend the knee" rather bothered Alister, given that he WAS a member of a Lordly House (however minor). It is probably one reason he was so *****ly at Castle Black.

EDIT: TexAgs appears to censor the word "p r I c k l y."
 
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