**Official Game of Thrones: Season 5 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)**

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redline248
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11:49p, 5/3/15
AG
So who is going to teach Dany more about Rhaegar?

We have Littlefinger filling in some of the tourney of Harrenhal stuff. I wonder how many non readers will put that info together with Oberyn's story last season. Seems like it's still a long way to go to R+L=J based on info shown in the show.
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mid90
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In reply to redline248 • 11:50p, 5/3/15
AG
quote:
So who is going to teach Dany more about Rhaegar?

We have Littlefinger filling in some of the tourney of Harrenhal stuff. I wonder how many non readers will put that info together with Oberyn's story last season. Seems like it's still a long way to go to R+L=J based on info shown in the show.

When Sansa mentioned Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Littlefinger seemed to give her a knowing look.....as if he knew the truth.
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redline248
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11:51p, 5/3/15
AG
Agreed.
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AggieSouth06
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11:51p, 5/3/15
Excellent episode. Bummed about Barristan but it accelerates the importance of a plot that seemed like it was manufactured to create a story for Dany. Watchers now hate the SOTH and see them as a real, imminent threat.

The Stannis scene was great too. The books make it clear that his daughter is his one emotional weakness. But I have a feeling based on this scene and the ominous "she has to come to the wall" stuff that something really heartbreaking is coming for our little grayscale survivor.
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The Dog Lord
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11:52p, 5/3/15
AG
Agreed that it will suck if he is dead, but the preview sure made it look like his body was ok display in the pyramid. Dont think grey work is dead though due to season preview images that I believe included him and haven't happened yet. Do you think Selmy dying makes it easier for Dany to take Jorah back? Getting one of her advisors and Westori Knights back could be huge for her.

Also, love all of the Rhaegar and Lyanna talk. Does it seem obvious that R+L=J now though? I mean all of the talk of them in the same episode where Melisandre discusses Shireen's royal blood and then tells Jon there is power in him and tries to make a smoke baby with him. She obviously knows something about him.
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The Dog Lord
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In reply to mid90 • 11:53p, 5/3/15
AG
quote:
quote:
So who is going to teach Dany more about Rhaegar?

We have Littlefinger filling in some of the tourney of Harrenhal stuff. I wonder how many non readers will put that info together with Oberyn's story last season. Seems like it's still a long way to go to R+L=J based on info shown in the show.

When Sansa mentioned Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Littlefinger seemed to give her a knowing look.....as if he knew the truth.

I thought the same thing. It seemed like he was on the verge of saying something about it.
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bangobango
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In reply to The Dog Lord • 12:16a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
Agreed that it will suck if he is dead, but the preview sure made it look like his body was ok display in the pyramid. Dont think grey work is dead though due to season preview images that I believe included him and haven't happened yet. Do you think Selmy dying makes it easier for Dany to take Jorah back? Getting one of her advisors and Westori Knights back could be huge for her.

Also, love all of the Rhaegar and Lyanna talk. Does it seem obvious that R+L=J now though? I mean all of the talk of them in the same episode where Melisandre discusses Shireen's royal blood and then tells Jon there is power in him and tries to make a smoke baby with him. She obviously knows something about him.
Yep. I was getting kind of stoked because this episode all but confirmed it for me. They wouldn't have included all that stuff if that isn't where they're going. Talk of the Lord of Light, attempted seduction of Snow, and talk of the tourney all packed back to back? R+L=J for sho.

Also, aggie93 is going to be piiiiissed.
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AustinAg2K
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12:18a, 5/4/15
I guess I'm the only one who didn't like the episode. I felt like Barristan's death was somewhat predictable. Maybe I've just seen many characters die and now I expect everyone to die, but as soon as he walked in to save Grey Worm, I thought, "He's gonna die sacrificing himself for Grey Worm." I imagine Tyrion will take over Barristan's role as mentor for Dany, once he finally makes it. I don't think anything is ever mentioned in the books, but it wouldn't surprise me if Tyrion knew Rhaegar. Certain he knows a lot about Dragons, so he'll probably at least help her "train her dragons."

Also, the Sandsnakes in the TV show bore me as much as they did in the books. For whatever reason, I have no interest in the Dorne story line.
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pb488
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In reply to bangobango • 12:22a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:
Agreed that it will suck if he is dead, but the preview sure made it look like his body was ok display in the pyramid. Dont think grey work is dead though due to season preview images that I believe included him and haven't happened yet. Do you think Selmy dying makes it easier for Dany to take Jorah back? Getting one of her advisors and Westori Knights back could be huge for her.

Also, love all of the Rhaegar and Lyanna talk. Does it seem obvious that R+L=J now though? I mean all of the talk of them in the same episode where Melisandre discusses Shireen's royal blood and then tells Jon there is power in him and tries to make a smoke baby with him. She obviously knows something about him.
Yep. I was getting kind of stoked because this episode all but confirmed it for me. They wouldn't have included all that stuff if that isn't where they're going. Talk of the Lord of Light, attempted seduction of Snow, and talk of the tourney all packed back to back? R+L=J for sho.

Also, aggie93 is going to be piiiiissed.


jon stabbed and dead, brought back to life via melisandre and the sacrifice of shireen?
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aggie93
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In reply to bangobango • 12:36a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:
Agreed that it will suck if he is dead, but the preview sure made it look like his body was ok display in the pyramid. Dont think grey work is dead though due to season preview images that I believe included him and haven't happened yet. Do you think Selmy dying makes it easier for Dany to take Jorah back? Getting one of her advisors and Westori Knights back could be huge for her.

Also, love all of the Rhaegar and Lyanna talk. Does it seem obvious that R+L=J now though? I mean all of the talk of them in the same episode where Melisandre discusses Shireen's royal blood and then tells Jon there is power in him and tries to make a smoke baby with him. She obviously knows something about him.
Yep. I was getting kind of stoked because this episode all but confirmed it for me. They wouldn't have included all that stuff if that isn't where they're going. Talk of the Lord of Light, attempted seduction of Snow, and talk of the tourney all packed back to back? R+L=J for sho.

Also, aggie93 is going to be piiiiissed.
I'm not pissed, I said a LONG time ago that the show would diverge farther and farther from the books. I don't agree with all the choices they have made but it is essentially just becoming a new story. I did go back though and realize that there wasn't a single segment of this episode that comes from the books. Many had portions of the books of course but essentially everything at this point is at least somewhat altered. That's ok, it just is dangerous because most of the changes are in the interest of simplification.

I was very excited to hear the Tourney of Harrenhall brought up though and the significance of Lyanna and Rhaegar. It was still a god episode, just a new story.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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12:41a, 5/4/15
AG
The sand snakes' intro was terrible. Blah costumes, blah dialogue, blah.

Really heartbroken that Barristan Bold bit the dust, and my wife felt the same way about Grey Worm.
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redline248
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12:57a, 5/4/15
AG
Sand snakes were pretty boring.
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OnlyForNow
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7:09a, 5/4/15
AG
This is what i picked up, posted it on the leaked thread and will now post it here.

LF tells Sansa what Reagar gave Layanna after he won the tourney of Harrenhal, winter roses kissed blue from the cold. I think that sets up the Jon = R+L theory to a T,, what with Danys vision of the blue rose in the wall of ice.

Secondly, I think Meleaandre basically have it up to Jon that he is Azor Ahai, he will die by getting stabbed but will be brought back to life by fire. (I figure they try to burn his body due to the others). Maybe Sherrien plays a roles in this haven't figured it out.
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AggieSouth06
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7:45a, 5/4/15
quote:
it is essentially just becoming a new story.


I disagree. I think they are taking a more direct route to the conclusion. Yes, Barristan is alive in the books, but I bet he dies in the Battle of Slaver's Bay.

When the show and books are all completed (in 2017 and 2073, respectively), I bet the consensus will be "same story, less meandering."
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to AggieSouth06 • 8:34a, 5/4/15
AG
Yeah if you have read any of the pre released chapters that GRRM has done, it seems like a lot of foreshadowing in it to him dying.
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AgLaw
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In reply to OnlyForNow • 8:46a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
he will die by getting stabbed but will be brought back to life by fire. (I figure they try to burn his body due to the others).
I hadn't thought about that. I figured Melisandre would bring him back with the kiss. Would be a cool bookend to Daenerys, if Jon walks out of the fire from his own funeral pyre.
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AgLaw
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In reply to The Dog Lord • 8:50a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
So who is going to teach Dany more about Rhaegar?

We have Littlefinger filling in some of the tourney of Harrenhal stuff. I wonder how many non readers will put that info together with Oberyn's story last season. Seems like it's still a long way to go to R+L=J based on info shown in the show.

When Sansa mentioned Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna, Littlefinger seemed to give her a knowing look.....as if he knew the truth.

I thought the same thing. It seemed like he was on the verge of saying something about it.
Same here.

My wife asked me after that scene what LF was up to. All I could say: Who knows, but he's sure up to something.

Side note: I like the apprenticeship of Sansa under LF re: how to the play the game.
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OnlyForNow
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9:10a, 5/4/15
AG
I also read alot of the reddit stuff a few weeks ago.

A lot of people believe that buried with Lyanna is Reagar's harp, we heard a TON about Reagar in the last episode from Selmy and LF. So this is what I get out of that.

The show people are really trying to make sure people know who this Reagar guy was, and beat it into their brains. Why else do that if he is so "unimportant" to the future of the story???

And yes, Jon walking out of his own funeral pyre is EXACTLY what I think will happen or is what would have happened (who knows now, GRRM might change the entire story to fit his ego)
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aggie93
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In reply to AggieSouth06 • 9:22a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:
it is essentially just becoming a new story.


I disagree. I think they are taking a more direct route to the conclusion. Yes, Barristan is alive in the books, but I bet he dies in the Battle of Slaver's Bay.

When the show and books are all completed (in 2017 and 2073, respectively), I bet the consensus will be "same story, less meandering."
The end will likely be very similar or the same but there is no doubt it is a different story at this point. I am ok with it, I'm actually looking at it from the perspective of "what if this had happened instead" but I think it cheapens the books to say that just because the primary conclusion is similar that it is the same story.

Agree the Sand Snakes are looking a bit cheesy and way too much "Fox Force 5". We will see though. I am lost on the Sansa diversion because it is pretty sloppy. LF still seems to know nothing about Ramsay and yet he wants the marriage to happen. Then he thinks Stannis will win but then Stannis will just pardon Sansa for marrying by choice someone he sees as a traitor, of course this will happen after Ramsay and Roose are killed theoretically. Then LF is heading to KL to meet with Cersei and she will now know that LF hid Sansa all this time and married her off to Ramsay? The leaps of logic are pretty big there.

I liked the Tyrion/Jorah interaction. The Loras/Cersei/Tommen stuff is interesting but a pretty significant change. Not sure why they went out of their way to have Melisandre convince Stannis she should go with him when that goes against the whole arc in the books where she sees Jon as AA and stays with him at the Wall. The "You know nothing Jon Snow" line was awesome but I'm still trying to figure out where they are going with all that. The Jaime/Bronn stuff is fun but it's hard to see how it will work out.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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9:24a, 5/4/15
AG
One thing the TV only thread noticed is that they are sending Meryn Trant across the ocean. It will be interesting to see how long the show takes before he gets to be introduced to ninja Arya.
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Bigsteve713
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In reply to OnlyForNow • 9:31a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:

And yes, Jon walking out of his own funeral pyre is EXACTLY what I think will happen or is what would have happened (who knows now, GRRM might change the entire story to fit his ego)
Didn't he burn his hand fighting the whit when he first got to the wall?
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In reply to aggie93 • 9:34a, 5/4/15
AggieSouth06
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9:54a, 5/4/15
Maybe I'm overly defensive of the show seeing as I was overly critical of books 4 & 5. I don't mind world-building and I actually liked book 4 significantly more than book 5, but there was so much transparent retconning in both those books... There's no way you can tell me GRRM intended to have Jon and Dany sulk around for an entire book doing nothing but politicking while he introduced a random surviving Targ that's crucial to the plot.

The show is doing its best to move the CENTRAL plot forward, which the books have little interest in doing. And I think it's doing a better job of doing so.
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RyanC
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10:11a, 5/4/15
AG
Did anyone else find Cersei's motivation for reestablishing the Faith Militant as unconvincing? They had just finished discussing the crippling debt that the realm is under, then it looks like she just flippantly arms the radicals out of boredom and to spite Margaery. These are the variances from the book that annoy me, when they set themselves up where it makes sense to follow the books, then they do something that makes even less sense without really helping to condense the story.

I wonder if they are setting Meereen up for Tyrion to find his mojo again by working his way onto Dany's small council, then basically running the city while she goes on her trip. If Selmy and/or Grey Worm are actually dead now, I also have a hard time seeing Dany consenting to marry Hizdahr after this.
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redline248
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In reply to Bigsteve713 • 10:11a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:

And yes, Jon walking out of his own funeral pyre is EXACTLY what I think will happen or is what would have happened (who knows now, GRRM might change the entire story to fit his ego)
Didn't he burn his hand fighting the whit when he first got to the wall?


This would seem to put a debt in the theory of Jon being a Targ (fire can't burn a dragon), unless it's bc he's only half. Azor Ahai is a different matter.
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AgLaw
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In reply to RyanC • 10:29a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
Did anyone else find Cersei's motivation for reestablishing the Faith Militant as unconvincing? They had just finished discussing the crippling debt that the realm is under, then it looks like she just flippantly arms the radicals out of boredom and to spite Margaery. These are the variances from the book that annoy me, when they set themselves up where it makes sense to follow the books, then they do something that makes even less sense without really helping to condense the story.
Agree. Part of the Cersei's story is how she mishandles everything.
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redline248
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In reply to AgLaw • 10:33a, 5/4/15
AG
Well, she clearly doesn't see the trap she's setting for herself when Lancel comes clean to the faith. Or if they even suspect her kids are from incest.
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AggieSouth06
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In reply to RyanC • 10:37a, 5/4/15
quote:
They had just finished discussing the crippling debt that the realm is under, then it looks like she just flippantly arms the radicals out of boredom and to spite Margaery.


She did it because she thinks she is creating a powerful ally with a personal army that she can manipulate into eliminating any opposition. This due to the fact that she had essentially become powerless. Now, in her mind, she has an ally that doesn't even answer to the king.

It will backfire, of course.

How did you get "she did it out of boredom" from what you saw? You just want to be angry about deviations from the book, which is a perfectly acceptable stance, but just say that's what you're angry about.
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MW03
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10:47a, 5/4/15
AG
Has the show even mentioned Azor Ahai by name? I feel like we've heard "Prince that was promised" from Melisandre, and the red priestess in Volantis called Dany the savior, but thats it right? Any "salt and smoke" talk ive forgotten?
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redline248
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10:48a, 5/4/15
AG
Maybe in season 2 when first introduced to Stannis, I can't remember.
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AggieSouth06
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In reply to MW03 • 10:52a, 5/4/15
quote:
Has the show even mentioned Azor Ahai by name? I feel like we've heard "Prince that was promised" from Melisandre, and the red priestess in Volantis called Dany the savior, but thats it right? Any "salt and smoke" talk ive forgotten?


"Born of salt and smoke? Is he a ham" -Renly

Don't know how I just remembered that line. I need to re watch the whole thing after this season.
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BigTimeAlum
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In reply to AgLaw • 11:49a, 5/4/15
AG
quote:
quote:
Did anyone else find Cersei's motivation for reestablishing the Faith Militant as unconvincing? They had just finished discussing the crippling debt that the realm is under, then it looks like she just flippantly arms the radicals out of boredom and to spite Margaery. These are the variances from the book that annoy me, when they set themselves up where it makes sense to follow the books, then they do something that makes even less sense without really helping to condense the story.
Agree. Part of the Cersei's story is how she mishandles everything.

Cersei is good at executing "the next move". She always fails to see "the big picture" which is why her moves consistently fail. As mentioned above, she thinks she understands this "simple man of faith" and can control him, pointing him in the direction of her enemies. She hasn't thought through the fact that her own sins could come back to bite her.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to redline248 • 11:53a, 5/4/15
AG
I didn't mean to say that he is full Targ by that statement and can't be hurt by fire.

He most certainly can be hurt by fire because yes, he got burned when dealing with the wright.

However, I think this is foreshadowing that he will be re-born by fire.
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redline248
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In reply to OnlyForNow • 11:58a, 5/4/15
AG
I got you, I was just wondering how him being burned fits in with some of the theories. Who knows how the "dragon can't be burned" deal works...If it's only full blood Targs, or what? Btw, was Rhaegar/Viserys/Dany's mom a Targ or from some Westerosi family?

Probably, in regard to Jon, it means he won't be a dragon rider.
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JAggie2007
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11:58a, 5/4/15
AG
Fire can hurt Targaryen's though. Egg died in a fire at Summerhall and I thought Dany was burned by fire after she "gave birth," to her dragons but maybe I'm mistaken in that.
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