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Yes. He would've freed from his oath, have an army of wildings sympathetic to his cause, and thinks Ramsey is doing horrible things to his sister.

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I dunno, it seems that Jon's fate is tied to the wall. If he truly is Azor Ahai, seems strange that GRRM would have him take a detour to save his "sister" when Stannis has essentially already taken care of that.

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I think jon is going to learn about his parentage soon. I think this will make him go south and try to take the throne, and then he will come back with a force big enough to stop the WW.

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Yes. He would've freed from his oath, have an army of wildings sympathetic to his cause, and thinks Ramsey is doing horrible things to his sister.

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I dunno, it seems that Jon's fate is tied to the wall. If he truly is Azor Ahai, seems strange that GRRM would have him take a detour to save his "sister" when Stannis has essentially already taken care of that.

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If Jon and Sansa are actually first cousins (R+L=J), couldn't they marry under Westerosi law?

I just came across an interesting theory on reddit while looking up the Jon death stuff in the book. I'm sure many of you all have heard it, but there is a theory that Stannis was actually the one who wrote the "Pink Letter" with the help of Theon.

Link

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Oh, and I've written most of the first sentence.

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The first draft was a real corker, in truth. But I've already rewritten it. I think that's enough for today. Time for lunch!

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I just came across an interesting theory on reddit while looking up the Jon death stuff in the book. I'm sure many of you all have heard it, but there is a theory that Stannis was actually the one who wrote the "Pink Letter" with the help of Theon.

Link

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Without reading the link....wut? Is any of the theory based on new chapters that have been released?

I fully intend to read the link, now.

Just thought of something, still without reading the link, I suppose Stannis could still want Jon to march the watch down to help. He could figure that letter would do the trick.

Another interesting reddit theory that Longclaw is actually Blackfyre, ancient ancestral sword of house Targaryen.

Does that give dates on the time frame of when Blackfyre was lost vs when the Mormont family acquired Longclaw?

From a couple of pages back, I think the any White Walker can reanimate a dead person, but the Night's King did his little parlor trick as a show of strength directly to Jon Snow, since he was the one who killed the WW. It was a way of saying "You killed one of mine, but look what I can do. My army is limitless."

I wouldn't even be surprised if that sort of effort took a lot out of him - sort of akin to Yoda lifting Luke's XWing out of the swamp in Empire Strikes Back - you're showing how much power you have, but it comes at a cost. If you've seen the extended edition of ROTK, they leave in the scene where Aragorn looks into the palantir they capture from Saruman to show himself to Sauron. There's nothing tactical to be gained by that move, because he can't attack Sauron there, but he's showing him "This is the face of your enemy. I'm the guy who can actually use this thing that drives everybody else nuts." Same show of force by the Night's King - those newly reanimated soldiers couldn't run out into the water (and why is that?) but it's a great way of showing Jon - who I'm sure is now enemy #1 for them - this is what I can do.

On the Valyrian steel front, I'd love to see the second or third to last episode of Game of Thrones ever include a scene where a huge homogenous army of Northerners, Southerners, and Wildlings is in the snow led by Valyrian steel wielding commanders Jon Snowgaryen, Jamie Lannister, and Brienne of Tarth; and just as the White Walkers and the Army of the Dead begin their attack, Dany, Tyrion, and you guessed it, Hodor, I mean warging Bran, fly over on the 3 dragons to take the fight to them.

*Unsupported tinfoil hat tv only theory*

While reading up on the Daario = Euron theory, I had a thought. With the show's need to combine and consolidate characters and the seeming elimination of the Greyjoy succession and Aegon storylines, could there be some sort of unholy merging that results for the show only that Daario = Aegon? Just a fun thought.

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Does that give dates on the time frame of when Blackfyre was lost vs when the Mormont family acquired Longclaw?

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As much contextual evidence as exists. The theory sponsor put in some time setting up a timeline for the last known location of Blackfyre and the earliest documented origin of Longclaw. Apparently, the only Valyrian Steel ******* swords ever mentioned in all the texts are Longclaw and Blackfrye. The timeline for Longclaw predates the Stark's acquisition of Ice, which doesn't make sense. Why would a lesser house have a VS sword before their liege lord? Why would the Old bear give away a priceless ancestral sword of his house to a guy he barely knew? Surely others have saved the Old bears life in his time with the NW? Remember Tywin tried very, very hard to acquire a VS sword for his house and never could even with all that Lannister gold, yet Jeor just gives his House's sword away to some *******?

I don't want to steal the author's thunder by summarizing his high points, but the timeline fits and it is a plausible theory. It also is the type of "hiding in plain sight" that Martin likes to do regularly i.e. Hound/Gravedigger, Robert Strong/Mountain, etc. Having an unknown Targaryen king(R+L=J) carry an incredibly famous, but currently unknown ancestral sword of house Targaryen, has some poetry to it. The theory makes for a good lunch read or some time on the crapper.

A Wiki of Ice and Firse says Mormonts have wielded Longclaw for 500 years and cites when it was stated here:

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/A_Game_of_Thrones-Chapter_60

That would be around 298 AC. Bittersteel carried Blackfyre in the 4th Blackfyre Rebellion in 236 AC. Timeline doesn't work if we take Jeor at his word on how long they have had it.

None of those are bad points but there are other examples of lower households holding Valyrian steel when their liege lords do not. Tarly has had Heartsbane even while Tywin was trying to replace Brightroar. I'm not saying the theory isn't possible but it is also possible we are so used to hidden connections that we look for them everywhere.

Also Harlaw and Drumm each have one, Greyjoy does not. For ray has one, Arryn does not. In fact, it looks like only Stark and Targaryen had one among the Great Houses prior to Ice being reforged

I never came up with the Longclaw=Blackfyre portion. But I've wondered about Mormont's raven (easy to do even when reading the first time, kinda like wondering about the things Patchface says) being a conduit to Brynden Rivers. I haven't yet gone back and read that book after reading Dance though.

Why does House Mormont have a VS sword 100 years before the Starks? And if his family has, in fact, had it for 500 years as their property, then why does he give it away? I think the theory assumes Longclaw's origins are secret for a reason. No one knows how a lesser house acquired such a windfall. Saying they have had it for a longer period of time than they did would be a good way to cover tracks.

Here is the chain of custody for both from the reddit post, including the actual text of the Jon VIII chapter you linked via wiki:

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CHAIN OF CUSTODY OF Blackfyre
After my stark realization (turbo pun, Har!), I dug into my newly acquired World of Ice and Fire and I further examined the Dunk and Egg novels to try and figure out just what happened to Blackfyre since nobody seems to know. For those who don't know the story, Aegon IV Targaryen slept around and had a bunch of *******s. He knighted one of them, Daemon Rivers, and gifted him with the sword of Targaryen Kings, Blackfyre. Daemon thus took that for his last name and started his own branch of house Targaryen, House Blackfyre. After being spurned by his half brother, Daeron, the King's trueborn son (we'll discuss that coincidence later), Daemon rose up in rebellion, aka the Blackfyre Rebellion. In essence, there were FIVE Blackfyre Rebellions, the first of which is where we see the legendary sword in combat. Daemon Blackfyre and Gwayne Corbray fought an epic duel in the midst of the Battle of Redgrass Field. It was speculated that after the rebels were defeated by Bloodraven, Bittersteel took Blackfyre with him across the narrow sea and formed the Golden Company. This is where things get foggy. everyone assumes Bittersteel took the sword with him because the sword disappeared after the battle. Well we just so happen to have a first hand account of that battle, courtesy of Ser Eustace Osgrey from the Sworn Sword. Please keep in mind this is the ONLY first hand account in ASOIAF of the last time Blackfyre was seen. Note how there is no mention of Bittersteel taking the sword.

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"Young Aemon took up Blackfyre when the blade slipped from his dying father's fingers, so Bloodraven slew him, too, the younger of the twins. Thus perished the black dragon and his sons. "There was much and more afterward, I know. I saw a bit of it myself . . . the rebels running, Bittersteel turning the rout and leading his mad charge . . . his battle with Bloodraven, second only to the one Daemon fought with Gwayne Corbray . . . Prince Baelor's hammerblow against the rebel rear, the Dornishmen all screaming as they filled the air with spears . . . but at the end of the day, it made no matter. The war was done when Daemon died."
-Ser Eustace, The Sworn Sword.

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So what do we know? We know that Bloodraven defeated Daemon I Blackfyre at the battle of Redgrass field. We know that a whole damn civil war started over the King's sword going to a non-heir. Tinfoil Time We assume that Bloodraven is smart enough to realize the implications of the sword falling into the wrong hands, so instead he seizes the sword and hides it (More about BR being a warg/green seer later). Presently, there is only one piece of damning evidence against my theory. This excerpt is from the World of Ice and Fire concerning redgrass field:

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"This was followed by Bittersteel's mad charge, with Blackfyre in his hand, as he attempted to rally Daemon's forces. Meeting with Bloodraven in the midst of the charge, a mighty duel ensued, which left Bloodraven blinded in one eye and sent Bittersteel fleeing."
-WOIAF

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Please don some tinfoil and allow me to explain this one away. The World of Ice and Fire is 'written' by an in-story character, Maester Yandel. I think we cannot take every word in this work as literary canon because the context of the book is skewed by the view of a Maester who is only writing down what he heard/studied. I believe we can place stronger emphasis on Ser Eustace Osgrey's first hand POV of the battle over this passage from WOIAF. This is the shiniest the Tinfoil will get in this theory.
Now many of you ask, "but wait, what about the other Blackfyre Rebellions?" Well there's a first hand account of the Second rebellion as well in the Mystery Knight, and you guessed it, no sword.

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"He does not bear the sword! If he were his father's son, Bittersteel would have armed him with Blackfyre."

• Lord Butterwell, The Mystery Knight, talking about the alleged Daemon II Blackfyre at the tourney at Whitewalls

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In fact, if you read WOIAF, in all of the follow up rebellions, there is no mention of Blackfyre being seen or used in combat, even when Bittersteel accompanied the attempted rebellions. Why the hell wouldn't Bittersteel arm the Blackfyre 'kings' he supported if he had the sword? Simple, because he DIDN'T have it. The solution to a problem is often the simplest explanation. Now before you start ranting about the sample Tyrion chapter and hearing something about a sword in another language, just remember that Varys arming his 'trueborn Targ' with Blackfyre would likely weaken his claim as a trueborn heir, so he wouldn't do it. Additionally, the sword made no appearance when Aegon finally met up with the Golden Company near the end of ADWD. Conclusion of Chain of custody of Blackfyre: In possession of Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers after the Battle of Redgrass Field.

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CHAIN OF CUSTODY OF LONGCLAW
In short, there is none. We first see Longclaw in A Game of Thrones when Jon is given the sword from the Old Bear.

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" This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel. "It is," the Old Bear told him. "It was my father's sword, and his father's before him. The Mormonts have carried it for five centuries. I wielded it in my day and passed it on to my son when I took the black." "
-Jon VIII, AGOT

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This is probably where you will all criticize me, but I have a real problem with this exchange between Jeor Mormont and Jon. How the hell did the Mormonts get a hold of a Valyrian steel sword 100 years before the Starks?

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" Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. It had been forged in Valyria, before the Doom had come to the old Freehold, when the ironsmiths had worked their metal with spells as well as hammers. Four hundred years old it was, and as sharp as the day it was forged. "
-Catleyn I, AGOT

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The Mormonts are bannermen to the Starks, and the Mormonts are a relatively poor house from the North. Hell, the Starks GAVE them Bear Island they didn't even have an established seat. I just don't buy the fact that the Mormonts had the means to acquire a VS sword, especially one century before their liege lord acquired his own. Furthermore, there is no mention of Longclaw's history by anyone in the entire series other than the Old Bear. We have had interactions with Jorah, Maege, and plenty of other people who have crossed paths with Mormonts, yet none ever mention Longclaw, ever. To me, that is quite strange considering the emphasis that is placed on Valyrian steel swords in Westeros. People gossip about the weapons, people crave their own, people talk about seeing them in battle, yet no mentions of Longclaw. Surely the sword would have been left with Maege on Bear Island until a male heir came along to wield it. These swords are the ONLY thing some of the old houses cling to. No amount of money can be spent to acquire an ancestral blade (as seen by Tywin's failure), and these swords are status symbols of houses. Giving one away (outside of your own bloodline) would surely be frowned upon by the people of Westeros. Hmmm. But why would Jeor Mormont make up this lie about the sword? Well, that leads into Tinfoil Territory concerning Bloodraven.
Longclaw chain of custody: Questionable?

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Let's not forget that these "hidden in plain sight" examples are still unconfirmed.

There could be a million different reasons why any house acquired a sword before another. Maybe a Mormont did some favor to an old Valyrian noble across the sea.

As to why he gave it to Jon. He has no other sons, took Jon as his steward to teach him how to command...maybe he looked at Jon as his adopted son of the watch.

Also, 5 centuries could be Jeor rounding up. Same with 400 years old for Ice. They could be the same age.

A few points to consider:

House Mormont isn't dead. They still live on Bear Island and could possibly have a male heir sometime in the future. Giving away that sword is a permanent act. It would make more sense to send it back to bear island and keep it on the mantle waiting for the next male heir to come along. Keep in mind the ONLY person who has ever talked about Longclaw is the Old Bear. No one else in any other house has ever talked about it, which is odd considering the reverence given to these swords.

If Bittersteel retained Blackfyre after the battle of Redgrass field, then why didn't any of the following Blackfyre claimants to the throne use it? It would have certainly strengthened their cause.

Also, if Bloodraven and Jeor were working together, and this is an old theory relating to Jeor's raven, then it makes sense that Coldhands(Bloodraven) would temporarily abandon his escorts on their way to the cave in order to kill the mutineers. Would BR care that much about any ordinary NW deserters? Or would killing the people who killed your friend make more sense?

I'm not saying this theory is canon, but it sure answers a few questions that previously didn't make sense.

Does Jorah ever mention the sword?

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Does Jorah ever mention the sword?

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No. Which is also odd.

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SEARCH TERM: Longclaw
Total Occurrence: 54
Total Chapters: 24

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SearchBot

I couldn't post the results, so I linked it

But he doesn't know his dad is dead in the books, right?

Other than Jorah, none of the others are major characters with more than a few lines of conversation. It's no surprise to me that Maege (sp?) doesn't stop in the middle of one of Robb's councils to say "I could really use longclaw right now." As for Jorah, he gave up everything to go across the sea, and believing himself still honorable, I can totally buy that he gave the sword back to his dad. He never discussed much of his past with Dany. When she got him to talk about why he was exiled his first thought was probably not to say "I had this awesome sword...sigh"

Sure, but no other characters anywhere ever mentioned an allegedly 500 year old badass sword? No one?

Jorah could have mentioned he previously owned a VS sword when he and Dany were talking about Dany's reward to him for his service -- a VS sword.

Why would he, when he previously told her nothing else of his past.

Look, it's possible. I'm just saying the evidence is shaky.

Sure. I'm not saying its canon either. I just enjoy these type of theories and discussion in between books.

As for Jorah, he opened up to Tyrion a bit and could have mentioned it there, or complimented Dany by saying the sword she would give him would be worth more to him than the ancestral sword of his house. This isn't the strongest evidence for the theory and we appear to be on a tangent. My point was merely that no one else has ever mentioned Longclaw, ever. This seems odd.

Ol Jock - to my knowledge, Jorah doesn't know in the books, but its been ahwile since I read them.

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My point was merely that no one else has ever mentioned Longclaw, ever. This seems odd.

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Is the sword Blackfyre ever mentioned at all in the 5 main books, or just the novellas?

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I agree that I really don't have a problem with the way the books have played out so far. Truthfully if we had been given something like Hard Home in book 4 I would be even more pissed about the waste of time some characters were in book 5. If there is too much action with the WW too quickly it will be hard for the rest of the show to have meaning. That might be a problem with the show from this point forward, but I suspect they can make it work for the remaining two seasons.

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There was a reviewer on YouTube who basically said the same thing. They said Hardomme was cool, but the problem with it is that now nothing happening in King's Landing really matters anymore. Lannisters, Starks, Boltons, etc. It doesn't really matter who is king when the Whitewalkers come down. I suppose Dany's story still matters, but only because her dragons need to get to Westeros.

When one takes that view, nothing else has mattered since the attack at the fist of the first men. We've known Winter (or the walkers) has been coming for a long time, with a big ass army.

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There was an article interviewing GRRM a while back about characters from the books he wanted to put in the show. I think this is relevant re: Jon.

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"Lady Stoneheart does have a role in the books," Martin said. "Whether it's sufficient or interesting enough I think it is, or I wouldn't have put her in. One of the things I wanted to show with her is that the death she suffered changes you."

Continues Martin: "I've talked about Gandalf [in The Lord of the Rings], and how the impact of his death was enormous. When I was a 12-year-old kid reading The Fellowship of the Ring and 'Fly, you fools!' and he goes into the chasm it was 'Holy ****! [J.R.R. Tolkien] killed the wizard! That's the guy who knew everything. How are they going to destroy the ring without him?' And now the 'kids' have to grow up because their 'daddy' is dead. If Gandalf could die, anybody could die. And then just a few chapters later Boromir goes down. Those two deaths created in me the 'anyone could die' thing. At that point I was expecting [Tolkien] to pick off the whole Fellowship one by one. And then we also think in The Two Towers that Frodo is dead, since Shelob stung him and wrapped him up. I really bought it because he set me up with those other deaths. But then, of course, he brings Gandalf back. He's a little strange at first, but then he's basically the same old Gandalf. I liked the impact we got from him being gone."

Martin's explanation initially sounds like an argument against including Lady Stoneheart, but Martin then noted: "Lady Stoneheart is not Cateyln. I've tried to set it up beforehand with Beric Dondarrion and his repeated [resurrections]. There's a brief appearance by Beric in Book One and he rides into the city and he's this flamboyant Southern knight. That's not that man we meet later on."

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So according to Martin, when you are resurrected, you are not the person you were. Sounds like he's pretty adamant about that. If Jon is resurrected, and he is "not" Jon in the same way Catelyn is not LSH or Beric is not the same guy, then there's your loophole for Jon's vows.

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I think this makes the most senese, but even if Jon still is "Jon" and not something/someone else (Lord Snowheart?), I doubt he is just going to bounce right back up and stay with the group who just killed him. He can still fight the Others regardless of whether he belongs to the Night's Watch, House Stark, House Targaryen, or has just been a true ******* of commoner all along. He doesn't have to abandon the big picture of fighting the Others even if his personality and approach are different.

He could arguably do more good as the Warden of the North by rallying the North to the Wall, as king by rallying the realm, or as AA by potentially rallying everyone that will follow someone like Dany that seems to be a supernatural hero.

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I think this makes the most senese, but even if Jon still is "Jon" and not something/someone else (Lord Snowheart?), I doubt he is just going to bounce right back up and stay with the group who just killed him. He can still fight the Others regardless of whether he belongs to the Night's Watch, House Stark, House Targaryen, or has just been a true ******* of commoner all along. He doesn't have to abandon the big picture of fighting the Others even if his personality and approach are different.He could arguably do more good as the Warden of the North by rallying the North to the Wall, as king by rallying the realm, or as AA by potentially rallying everyone that will follow someone like Dany that seems to be a supernatural hero.

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You don't think Jon being raised by the dead won't make him seem supernatural?

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Another interesting reddit theory that Longclaw is actually Blackfyre, ancient ancestral sword of house Targaryen.

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Martin likes to foreshadow. If this was his plan there would be a reference, something to blackfyre in the books and not a side book mostly written by fanboys (brilliant studious fanboys but fanboys nonetheless)

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Another interesting reddit theory that Longclaw is actually Blackfyre, ancient ancestral sword of house Targaryen.

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Martin likes to foreshadow. If this was his plan there would be a reference, something to blackfyre in the books and not a side book mostly written by fanboys (brilliant studious fanboys but fanboys nonetheless)

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You mean like a description of Longclaw followed by a cleverly hidden reference? Something like this:

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"My father believed the same," said the Old Bear. "Let me have a look at that skull."
Jon dismounted. Slung across his back in a black leather shoulder sheath was Longclaw, the hand-and-a-half ******* blade the Old Bear had given him for saving his life. A ******* sword for a *******, the men joked. The hilt had been fashioned new for him, adorned with a wolf's-head pommel in pale stone, but the blade itself was Valyrian steel, old and light and deadly sharp.
He knelt and reached a gloved hand down into the maw. The inside of the hollow was red with dried sap and blackened by fire. Beneath the skull he saw another, smaller, the jaw broken off. It was half-buried in ash and bits of bone.

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A Clash of Kings - Jon II



Redline -

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Is the sword Blackfyre ever mentioned at all in the 5 main books, or just the novellas?

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A quick keyword search of Blackfyre only came up with mentions of Daemon in the 5 books, but plenty of references to the sword in a World of Fire and Ice plus the novellas. Conversely, Longclaw is not mentioned AT ALL in any of the novellas or a world of fire and ice. This isn't surprising for the novellas, but it is for a WOFAI. I did a quick search for Brightroar too and Tyion once mentions it in Tyrion IV and it is mentioned a couple times in a World of Fire and Ice. The Tarly's sword Heartsbane is also mentioned a few times in the novels plus in a world of Fire and Ice.

Quick description of what World of fire and ice is?