Some of you are equating Littlefinger's resources with Varys'. Littlefinger's information network is limited by comparison, and we know that Varys doesn't share information with Littlefinger unless there's a reason to. It is completely plausible that Littlefinger wouldn't know any details about Ramsay. The Boltons are bannermen to the Starks, so they are definitely not a major house. I suggest you argue the point with the producers, who have been very clear that Littlefinger did not knowingly hand over Sansa to a sadist.

I understand the limitations of Book 4 and 5 and certainly don't need to see Brienne wandering aimlessly throughout the 7 Kingdoms or lengthy descriptions of blood sausage. Changes were going to happen and that's fine, I just disagree with some of the changes and think they left out some of the best parts of Books 4 and 5 while fundamentally changing some characters in a way that shifts their stories so they don't make as much sense. The 2 biggest issues the show has right now imo is the lack of badasses, either good or bad. Many are now dead and the ones that are around seem stuck in the mud plot wise. They seem to be keeping many of the most boring or puzzling parts of the story (and creating more) while cutting the good stuff.

Why do 1 flashback and cut it off with talking about how Cersei's friend would die and more importantly how Cersei would be killed by her "younger brother"? It would take almost no addl screen time and would explain her motivations.

Why no "wolf dreams" for Arya? Ayra still connected with Nymeria who is tearing up the Riverlands and eating Freys is a pretty cool and easy storyline.

No LSH. They could also combine the LSH storyline and maybe have Blackfish hook up with the BwB. More badasses wreaking havoc.

The Iron Islands story was great, it was just too long but easily shortened. The Kingsmoot would have been great. Victorion and Euron are awesome characters. Also would love to see Euron invading The Reach and putting additional pressure on Highgarden.

No Manderley or Frey Pie. Another cool character that everyone underestimates but is a freaking badass.

The choice to make Tommen older and able to consummate the marriage with Margarey also fundamentally changes that story significantly. In the books Tommen doesn't react because he doesn't have real power because of his age and he is being told that she essentially betrayed him. Now he just looks like a wimp.

Why make the Faith Militant so fervently opposed to homosexuality, sex in general, and even wine? It's completely inconsistent with the books and makes them far more simplistic.

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Some of you are equating Littlefinger's resources with Varys'. Littlefinger's information network is limited by comparison, and we know that Varys doesn't share information with Littlefinger unless there's a reason to. It is completely plausible that Littlefinger wouldn't know any details about Ramsay. The Boltons are bannermen to the Starks, so they are definitely not a major house. I suggest you argue the point with the producers, who have been very clear that Littlefinger did not knowingly hand over Sansa to a sadist.

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I think you are missing the point. The producers may say that LF handed her off to Ramsay without knowing who he was but that only reflects poorly on them. It is completely out of character for LF and doesn't make sense for him to do so. LF is a guy who takes risks but they are very calculated and thought out risks, instead the Show is making him look like he is taking wild gambles and just hoping for the best. It's just weak.

It's similar to how they are trying to combine Sansa and Jeyne Poole, all in the same episode. Is Sansa "Sansa" or is she Jeyne? You build up Sansa as this burgeoning Game player, complete with strong jabbing comments at dinner and with Ramsay's sidepiece. Then she acts like a lost little girl when she is alone with Ramsay, gives up all control and lets him treat her like a *****? If you must have her consummate the marriage at least show HER taking control of the situation. Make it look like she is setting up Ramsay for the fall. You have been showing for the last 2 seasons how she has learned how to control her emotions and the situation she is in, often when she didn't know what to expect, and yet even with all the buildup she just looks lost? Why, because Jeyne Poole did in the books? It's just poor writing and not well thought out.

Dorne stuff bored me in the books and it's even worse on tv. Having Sand Snakes meet Jamie/Bronn in the garden at same time was laughable. Now even more laughable with the instant replay of the fighting. Jamie has become so spare in the show.

One thing that always confused me in the books and more so on the show is the amount of distance the characters seem to travel overnight. I know in fiction we have to ignore realism, but they have had LF go from Vale to Winterfell to King's landing in just a couple episodes. They even stated on the show that King's Landing is 1000 miles from Winterfell. I'm almost certain in the book it's further than that because it's mentioned that Moat Calin is 1000 leagues from Winterfell. Again, I know we are supposed to just not worry about all that. I did feel like in the book it was all too convenient how characters kept randomly running into each other

As for Sansa... everybody should have known that was coming, but like someone said, just very poor timing after 2 episodes of making her stronger.

They are milking as much as they can without trying to actually show something that could be book 6 material

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I think you are missing the point. The producers may say that LF handed her off to Ramsay without knowing who he was but that only reflects poorly on them. It is completely out of character for LF and doesn't make sense for him to do so. LF is a guy who takes risks but they are very calculated and thought out risks, instead the Show is making him look like he is taking wild gambles and just hoping for the best. It's just weak.

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Disagree. Ramsey is the newly minted heir to the north, but who's family isn't liked at ALL by the north. LF knows that. Having him marry Sansa (or fake Anya) helps bring the north under control. And House Bolton = indebted to LF (even without the double-cross he's planning). A gamble? Sure, but that's the game.

He's also gambling that Sansa will survive the battle between Stannis and House Bolton. Which is a safe gamble. Stannis won't kill her and she's Ramsey wife. So if LF and the Veil can conquer Winterfell and save Sansa, he's now the "Savior of the North".

Agree to disagree on LSH I suppose. She takes over the BwB and is reigning terror and revenge on everyone that has wronged the Starks and Tullys, mainly the Freys. In the books you have Manderley and LSH causing the Frey's pain and they are setting up the fall of their House, in the Show none of that has developed. Thus no revenge storyline on one of the most evil characters in the series even though they have set up how important "guest right" is in Westeros. LSH also holds Brienne accountable to her promise and is about to have her bring her Jaime and we don't know what will happen there. She also has sent Tom to Riverrun to setup the retaking of that castle.

Maybe you cut LSH and put Blackfish in that role to combine characters and not have to pay Michelle Fairley. Blackfish is a boss and they purposefully saved him in the Show, yet nothing... The BwB have also been abandoned as a story and they have some interesting characters with Thoros and crew, you can keep Beric or no.

Or do you not think viewers would be interested in seeing the Frey's world crumble beneath them and be brought to justice?

The whole theme of Books 4 and 5 is building up massive amounts of pressure on all sides of Westeros and Mereen and setting up a situation where no one has the upper hand and everything is about to blow up.

I am hoping we get some Randyl Tarly though.

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I think you are missing the point. The producers may say that LF handed her off to Ramsay without knowing who he was but that only reflects poorly on them. It is completely out of character for LF and doesn't make sense for him to do so. LF is a guy who takes risks but they are very calculated and thought out risks, instead the Show is making him look like he is taking wild gambles and just hoping for the best. It's just weak.

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Disagree. Ramsey is the newly minted heir to the north, but who's family isn't liked at ALL by the north. LF knows that. Having him marry Sansa (or fake Anya) helps bring the north under control. And House Bolton = indebted to LF (even without the double-cross he's planning). A gamble? Sure, but that's the game.

He's also gambling that Sansa will survive the battle between Stannis and House Bolton. Which is a safe gamble. Stannis won't kill her and she's Ramsey wife. So if LF and the Veil can conquer Winterfell and save Sansa, he's now the "Savior of the North".

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No, he specifically tells Sansa that she can wrap Ramsay around her finger if the Bolton's win (which became significantly more likely now that the Bolton's are "backed" by the Starks in the eyes of the North). So if Bolton wins then you theoretically have The Vale attacking the North in Winter (just cruising through Moat Cailin that is controlled by the Boltons mind you which no one has done in 10k years) and taking Winterfell (which also is no easy task). Then even though the Bolton's know that Sansa is deeply loved by LF and the Bolton's know this (since he has told him so) they don't think to use that leverage to get the Vale to stand down. Oh, and since they have aged up Sweetrobin he has to go along with all of this btw even though LF has left him with the Lords of the Vale. He is going to "save" Sansa who he was promised to but has now married Ramsay Bolton?

Yes, they can connect the dots but they are leaving a lot of gaps. Gaps are generally ok except in this case they are being left by the guy who is least likely to do so. I mean it is a fantasy show so they can do whatever they want but that doesn't mean there aren't huge flaws.

Doesn't Victorian and Co. roll up on Mereen trying to hook up with Dany? I kind of assumed that would be her navy to get to Westeros. Of course, now she's back dilling around in the Dothraki Sea or whatever, but I figured she'd get back to Mereen somehow to hook back up with Selmy and Gray Worm.

Then again, the previews don't seem to show Dany in the pit trying to save Drogon, but rather he in the pit with Jorah and a couple of Unsullied trying to fend off the Harpies. So maybe she doesn't even ride Drogon off anyway.

I think that she will end up riding him, we have been waiting for it to happen basically the whole season, and it is about as season "finale-y" as you can get. Plus I think the next step in the books is for Dany to take control of the Dothraki using Drogon as her source of power, and after resuming being Khaleesi, takes them back to Mereen and wipes out the insurrection. If I am right about that, then that seems like too big of a plot point to edit out, as it is her gaining a whole army.

One quick thought, and one question:

1) LSH killing Freys wouldn't make good television at this point, because we don't know a single Frey aside from Walder Frey. There'd have to be a lot of exposition - like "hey we're the Freys, remember when we killed Robb 2 years ago? That was crazy. Let's all go for a walk," followed by them being captured and lynched, and then some exposition about how the hell Catelyn Stark is still somewhat-alive - if anyone can even recognize her at that point.

The Riverlands is so far out of the average viewer's mind right now.

2) A question for you all - do you think GRRM has a plan? I mean, obviously he must know some of the main points (Jon's parentage, who will win in the end), but how much do you think he knows about how he wants all these stories to wrap up?

The reason I ask is because nearly everything this season has been a modified or tidied-up version of what we got in the books. In comparison to the show (which obviously isn't perfect), I feel like the books may have spiraled out of control a bit. Or perhaps, in light of what the show has kept, we're seeing some ideas that have been introduced in the book that may amount to a lot of worthless pages in the end.

Let's put it this way: we're 5 books in with 2 to go. We have a Stannis / Bolton battle about to happen, there's drama at the Wall, Bran is a tree, Arya still hasn't amounted to much, Aegon is invading, Daenerys is in the middle of nowhere, Mereen is besieged, Cersei and Margaery are in captivity to the church, Littlefinger and Sansa are sitting around. Also, Lady Stoneheart, Jaime and Brienne, Samwell Tarly, the Ironborn, the Martells, Coldhands, the Others, Dragons, Jorah and Tyrion, Tower of Joy, prophecies.

How confident are you, with two books left, that these stories will wrap up in a satisfying way?

Personally, I feel like the show will do a better job of that because they've trimmed a lot of fat. I'd like to think that GRRM has a plan for it all, but I'm not sure. Perhaps if he did, the books wouldn't have gone from a trilogy, to 5, to 7. But that's just my two cents.

I think either of you (CHamp or MW03) could be right. But as I already posted, I think we are seeing a huge contraction/simplification of the story line in Essos.

No Griff. No Quentin. No Victarion naval assault and as of yet, no mention of the free cities marching on Slaver's Bay. Barristan is dead. Jorah's return being fast tracked. Tyrion joining Dany being fast tracked. Daario not being held hostage. Honestly, I don't think there will be a siege of Mereen. Too many moving parts to put in to action now and battles are expensive to film.

My guess is that the season will end in the fighting pits. Jorah gets redemption and dies. Tyrion essentially becomes the hand of the Queen. Daario is the main man with Selmy and Jorah dead. The Harpy attacks in force with Dany and her council trapped in the fighting pits. The dragons come to the rescue. Dany rides Drogon in the battle, at some point. The Dothraki are not brought back in to the story.

Season 6 will be whatever (loosely) Dany is doing in book 6, post siege of Mereen, and in preparation to return to Westeros.

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2) A question for you all - do you think GRRM has a plan? I mean, obviously he must know some of the main points (Jon's parentage, who will win in the end), but how much do you think he knows about how he wants all these stories to wrap up?

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It is my understanding that Martin spent several days with some HBO execs and an attorney for each side in which he provided the ends to each story arc and how it would all wrap up.

So yes, I think there is a plan. In fact, I think there was a plan when he wrote Game of Thrones. He has said himself it was to be a three book series, that morphed to five, and eventually he decided it would take seven with the last two being roughly 1500 pages each. But I do believe he knows how it ends and so does HBO.

it is not that far of a deviation from the book.

Instead of prancing around with a girl purported to be arya stark...who ramsey then abused...they substituted Sansa stark which made more sense with the way the TV show is going...

personally im much more disappointed with the Dorne storyline as others have said. Jaime isnt even there....and the daughters were much hotter...****tier and fun...

If Rickon ever shows back up, he's going to be wild as hell. He was already going that direction before he ran off with Osha, now he's been spending years growing up as a wildling. He probably knows nothing about the North or much about his family. In book terms he might be 8 years old, by now? 10 max?

In the show, that's all different bc he was headed to the Umbers'. I wonder when the show brings them back into play.

I'm really curious to see if/how Arya gets reintegrated into the bigger picture. Personally, I really like her story-line (I get why others don't), but she's for all intents and purposes no longer a Stark or even a Westerosianite . She's well on her way to being a faceless one. What does she do, quit the order and become Dany's personal assassin?

well if Arya's story ISN'T somehow going back to Westeros and playing a part then.....this has been a terrible long distraction.

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Then again, the previews don't seem to show Dany in the pit trying to save Drogon, but rather he in the pit with Jorah and a couple of Unsullied trying to fend off the Harpies. So maybe she doesn't even ride Drogon off anyway.

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See Urban Ag's post about Drogon coming in to save the day in the pits. She could then fly off on him and still meet the Dothraki, although with everything else they have cut, I don't think they really need to reintroduce them. They can simply use her Unsullied, sellswords, dragons, and any Westerosi who come to her cause as her army. I hope they do bring the Dothraki back, but who knows at this point.

Fighting Pit scene goes like this, to me.

Dany, Tyroin, Jorah, Darrio, Hizadtah, and grey worm are all down in the center of the circle surrounded by Harpys.

Jorah gets killed or mortally wounded, Darrio gets taken prisoner, Hizadath gets eaten by Drogon, Dany flies away on Drogon or he takes her away unwillingly, leaving Tyroin and grey worm, along with messandei (the chick who like grey worm).

That would leave it just about the same as the books.

I do think Martin has a plan, I just think he also has a habit of getting new ideas in the process of writing and going off on tangents. Realistically he needs 8 books to close all the loops and I don't think that happens. I think what will happen is he will close up most of the major characters but leave quite a bit still hanging out there. It bothers me less though because the characters are more consistent in their behavior and the story makes more sense. The Show is more about providing the Cliff Notes version of how we can make sure to get this story told one way or another in 7 Seasons. I get that but certainly don't prefer it.

GRRM just has an unlimited imagination and is trying to connect all the prophecies and stories together in the end which is far more difficult but also far more interesting than the Show. That is what is so brilliant, if you pay close attention each prophecy predicts the future and if you are able to understand the past you can understand where it is all going. The Show completely ignores flashbacks and prophecies for the most part and that's the best part. The books are designed so that you have to go back and re-read and look at maps to grasp all of the little things that connect the story together, the Show is just dumbed down. I'm ok with it being dumbed down, I just think they have made some poor choices on what was kept and what was dropped. It's an opinion and I understand the impossible choices the Show creators have, especially when they make a decision and then it is interpreted by a writer, a director, and actors. Martin just has to write and he doesn't have limitations on the size of his world or the length of his story and thus he can take his time and he can pull stuff from far earlier in the books into the present story, that's a big part of his allure, you have to pay attention to EVERYTHING if you want to understand the whole story. The Show is written so the casual viewer can be spoonfed the story and still miss big parts of it and still be entertained.

The only thing I have found to be consistent though is no one agrees. If you watch 10 reviews of the episode and you get some who think the Show has completely jumped the shark and they are ready to give it up and you have others that think it was the best episode yet. I guess that is part of what makes it great.

the bigger question is what happens first...GRRM dying, or him finishing the series.

I think at some point Littlefinger sits on the Iron Throne. And then Arya takes him out.

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I think at some point Littlefinger sits on the Iron Throne. And then Arya takes him out.

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Sometimes I fear he will endthe series like The Departed, with Arya being Mark Wahlberg.

What if GRRM's end-game is that he gets through with book 6 mostly through with book 7 then kills himself, either David Carradine style, by his unheathly lifestyle, or actual suicide. The ultimate cliff-hanger, he does it on purpose so no one really knows how it was supposed to end, just what people say he said.

and he does it in a Ned Stark-Red Wedding-esque way, to completely screw over the readers.

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kills himself...David Carradine style

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Thanks for burning THAT image into my brain.

i had heard that a large majority of the last book was actually written by a ghost writer...and that this was because of the length its taking to finish the books...has anyone heard anything similar?

a google search turned up no info on this, so im thinking its bogus.

Almost certain that isn't true about the ghostwriter, though there has been a lot of criticism of GRRM's book editor. Martin is crazy protective of his story and has made it clear that if he dies he does not want someone else to finish the series.

FWIW, it sounds like he is finishing up WoW. The key is if he takes another break or if he keeps writing. He admitted that much of the lost time on this book is that he took time off and got involved in other stuff and it took him a while to get back in the groove. Hopefully he sees the end in sight now and will just keep going.

Of course this is Martin we are talking about so I seriously doubt it will happen.

over under on page count for WoW?

1500?