**Official Game of Thrones: Season 5 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)**

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jenn96
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1:36a, 6/9/15
AG
Honestly, they could just be talking about Cersei's perp walk. Especially since this entire season the show has been under a lot of criticism - some completely legitimate, some ludicrous "feminist" grievance mongering - about how the show portrays and treats women. Having Cersei stripped naked to be mocked at for her body and promiscuity is going to create a lot of Twitter outrage and Pointless. Use. Of. Pronunciation to emphasize how they just can't even.

I do agree that Jons death would also be epic, I just don't know that the setup is in place yet.
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SpreadsheetAg
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1:54a, 6/9/15
AG
Mother's Mercy - Cersie confesses and recieves mercy from "The Mother"
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marble rye
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In reply to SpreadsheetAg • 2:27a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
quote:
quote:
i really really wish we would see Jon's eyes pop open a moment before going to black. Cut to a closeup of a "dead" Jon, and then his eyes pop-open. end scene.....just something for the fans to get them to next season..


i hope....


I could see that happening.
What if his eyes pop open... and they're ice-blue? [dammit ryamkjr beat me to it]




...or fire-red?


...or dragon purple?


Red to match Ghost's.
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OnlyForNow
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In reply to marble rye • 2:29a, 6/9/15
AG
Not out of the question. Fire = red as well and is the anti-ice blue of the walkers.in the books I could see this being 100% happening I don't think the show will do it.
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bangobango
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3:27a, 6/9/15
AG
So, I know this will be an obvious reveal to many of you and I'm sure it's all over fan blogs and stuff, but I just decided that A Song of Fire and Ice is Jon Snow.
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The Dog Lord
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In reply to bangobango • 8:44a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
So, I know this will be an obvious reveal to many of you and I'm sure it's all over fan blogs and stuff, but I just decided that A Song of Fire and Ice is Jon Snow.

Just kidding. You are actually right that this is a widely thought theory, especially if R+L=J is true. I think that one of Dany's visions in the house of the undying is of Rhaegar saying "and his is the song of ice and fire" in reference to his son (believed to be Aegon though because Ellia is also in the vision I believe). Is that the only reference to "a song of ice and fire" in the books that anyone can remember?
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Zombie Jon Snow
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9:08a, 6/9/15
AG
Found a couple of interesting quotes in reviews I normally read, about this idea we have been discussing here a little (whether it is just a brutal "anyone can die" series, or whether some characters, and good ones, are destined to win out....whether evil can prevail basically) and whether that would be a good story or not. And also whether this is really a human story or a white walker/others story....



From HitFix about Dany and Jon (and this is a very show only, non book reader)
quote:
Another aspect the Hardhome and Meereen riots shared: the characters at the center of them are among the handful of "GoT" regulars who seem to exist outside the franchise's "anyone can die" ethos. For Dany to be killed before she gets to Westeros would be such terrible storytelling that it would call into question how much of the show has just been sadistic filler, and we're already asking that about Ramsay. And the White Walkers are such a clear part of the show's end game that some representative of the Night's Watch needs to be there for it, though I suppose Sam could wind up our eyes in that corner of the world if need be.

But "anyone can die" is also something of a parlor trick. Walter White wasn't going to die midway through the run of "Breaking Bad," but that knowledge didn't make the situations where his life was in danger any less suspenseful. That I suspected Jon would make it to the boats in time, and that Dany would find some way out of the fighting pit (a way likely to involve the one dragon she hadn't chained) didn't make the climaxes of these past two episodes any less exciting, or scary, or emotionally exhausting.


http://www.hitfix.com/whats-alan-watching/review-game-of-thrones-the-dance-of-dragons-the-unforgettable-fire#tJyhQ32uHtdjUyfO.99

And on Grantland...


quote:
I even want to give David Benioff and D.B. Weiss extra credit here, for committing the crime and then arguing, in absentia, for their own exoneration. When Tyrion quarrels with Hizdahr after the nightmare of House Baratheon and just before the fighting pits collapsed into wholesale slaughter the smallest Lannister gives voice to the noble viewers who remain, in the words of our Bohemian friends in Dorne, "unbowed, unbent, unbroken" despite Thrones' unending cavalcade of suffering. "There's always been more than enough death in the world for my taste," the Imp says. "I can do without it in my leisure time." Put out, Hizdahr huffs, "What great thing has ever been accomplished without killing or cruelty?" To which Tyrion replies, "It's easy to confuse what is with what ought to be, especially when 'what is' has worked out in your favor.

In other words, check your privilege, Death Merchant. As I suggested last week, there's a way to watch Game of Thrones not as a nihilistic doom spiral but as a real-time documentary of Hell's Ragnarok; it's not a celebration of terrible things happening, but a final spasm of the bad old ways before something radical and new arrives to take their place. AfterThrones's better episodes and in my better moments, I like to subscribe to this view. I even caught a glimpse of it last night as Daenerys ghosted on her friends and rode her magic dragon to unimaginable new heights and Tyrion, so often the audience's surrogate for moments of otherworldly wonder, stared as if the sky itself had cracked open. Perhaps it had. We'll know soon enough.


And about the endgame:


quote:
After the massive calamity of last week, I feared that Game of Thrones's apocalyptic endgame might bury its smaller stories like an avalanche. But the truth is, I needn't have worried. The rise of the Night's Kingdoes make minor skirmishes like the one between Stannis and the Boltons seem even more wasteful and petty than they already did. (And it makes unnecessary casualties like Shireen sting even more.) But not even an army of the dead can stamp out the vibrancy of life, especially when that life has been cultivated and cared for as opposed to shuttled about like so many figurines on the Baratheon war board. It's good, wholehearted writing that causes us to care for Arya, even when she's shucking up on the other side of the world, or Tyrion when he's pledged his wit to someone who, dragons aside, has yet to prove particularly worthy of it. Fire is exciting and terrifying and can easily consume anything in its path. But no matter what we're watching, audiences care chiefly about characters, not kindling. Any joker can sit back and. The mark of a great storyteller is someone able to marshal all those dangerous flames and use them to illuminate, not destroy.



The story isn't the white walkers, that is just the ultimate threat hanging over everything...and they will have to deal with it eventually (and now that time is getting closer)...but the WW/others are not characters we get to know and it's not going to end with either evil human characters or the white walkers/others winning.
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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9:13a, 6/9/15
AG
Great quote from that Grantland article:

quote:
I'm a dedicated watcher of the Thrones and that is not going to change. (Though if Olly the squire shivs Jon Snow next week in true Kenard/Omar fashion, I reserve the right to reconsider.)
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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9:48a, 6/9/15
AG
Things that could "break the Internet" in Episode 10. Feel free to add your own.


Brienne nude scene
Sam Tarly nude scene
Sansa simultaneously raping/flaying Ramsay Bolton
Olly stabs Jon Snow, then changes his face, he's actually Jaqen H'Gar, who then change his face again, and he's been Rickon all along.
White Walkers all bowing before a new Night's King - it's White Walker Hodor
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agmatt06
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9:53a, 6/9/15
AG
I wouldn't go that far haha...but yeah..the Cersei walk wouldn't be anything shocking...I'll be disappointed if it's just that (not watching it because Lena is hot, but because given what has gone on in this show, that wouldn't be dramatic at all).
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Ol Jock 99
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 10:07a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Brienne nude scene
You sure about that? (mildly NSFW maybe)

Gwendoline Christie is no Lena Headey, but they do a fair amount of work to ugly her up.
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Joe Cole
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10:14a, 6/9/15
I have been rereading book 5 and just the other night came across the scene of Val and Jon discussing Shireen. Val says several times something along the lines of "the girl is dead (greyscale) even if you can't see it, the girl is already dead". This kind of cemented to me that Shireern was going to be sacrificed just like it was foreshadowed earlier this season on the show.

Can someone explain the king's blood sacrifice ? The key to the sacrifice is that it's "king's blood" , but how does it work if Stannis really isn't a king? When he is acknowledged as "king" by his army, does the sacrifice then work?

I feel like the Arya/Trant setup was taking too long last night. So now what? Arya gets needle, becomes the "fresh" girl and kills him and then blinded ?

One of the biggest twists to me last night was Hizdar getting stabbed.

I also thought the show did a bad job of explaining what exactly happened with the attack on Stannis' camp and how do they know it was just "20 men" that did all the damage ?




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redline248
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10:32a, 6/9/15
AG
I think it's obvious she's going to use the vial given to her by Jaqen to poison Trant.

As far as Stannis and king's blood...it's an interesting question, but I would imagine by the current established laws of Westeros (which made Robert King, and his offspring full of king's blood) means that Stannis being the next legitimate one in line gives him king's blood. Or that the Baratheons married a Targaryen into their house however many years ago.
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W.C. Griffin '09
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In reply to Joe Cole • 10:56a, 6/9/15
AG
I agree with redline. If you accept that Robert's reign was legitimate, Stannis is the rightful king of Westeros
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W.C. Griffin '09
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10:57a, 6/9/15
AG
They should just shamelessly rip off Girl with the Dragon Tattoo when Sansa gets even with Ramsay
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Agustus Caesar
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In reply to W.C. Griffin '09 • 10:59a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
They should just shamelessly rip off Girl with the Dragon Tattoo when Sansa gets even with Ramsay
I think that is a rip off we could all get behind.

Then have Davos 'Marvin Gaye' Stannis; and Brienne cut Melisandre in two with Stark Valyrian Steel
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Texas Tide
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11:04a, 6/9/15
AG
What constitutes kings blood? Does Danny have it because she was born into an existing royal family? Did she loose it then gain it back? We're the Baratheons born with it or did the gain special status after the rebellion? Did the Starks get kings blood after Rob was proclaimed king in the north?

Just curious where the line is and how this works. Is this just a hand wave "magic" thing or is there a midichlorians reason or rhyme to all of this?
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W.C. Griffin '09
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In reply to Agustus Caesar • 11:04a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
I think that is a rip off we could all get behind.


I see what you did there
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Joe Cole
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11:11a, 6/9/15
Have they ever actually referenced there being a leader of the harpies on the show?
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to W.C. Griffin '09 • 11:18a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
I agree with redline. If you accept that Robert's reign was legitimate, Stannis is the rightful king of Westeros
I don't.

The Targaryens created the 7 Kingdoms....to me this has always been a Targaryen story, almost wiped out but they will reign again. Robert was a placeholder and his death led to this epic story and various claimants (2 brothers, 3 ******* children, crazy wife, 2 previous servants who are sesecretlycretyl controlling a lot with Varys and LF, former Hands of the king playing important parts with both Ned and his extended family and Tyrion). Without Robert you don't have any drama....but they are all fodder to the story.

Which is why Dany is an interesting and important story despite not being in Westeros...and why the R+L = J is not only interesting but damn near necessary...why all the subterfuge about Lyanna and focus on Jon if it is not true. And why all the references to the last Targaryen....and Dany being at least temporarily infertile....she will give birth again to Targs when she has a Targ mate (Jon).

In the end it's about ICE (WW and others and Jon in the north) and FIRE (Dany and her Dragons).

And more importantly its about ice AND fire.......together.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to W.C. Griffin '09 • 11:18a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
They should just shamelessly rip off Girl with the Dragon Tattoo when Sansa gets even with Ramsay
except tattoo it on his forehead...not on his chest.

edit = oh you mean the rape....well yeah that too.
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redline248
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In reply to Texas Tide • 11:20a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
What constitutes kings blood? Does Danny have it because she was born into an existing royal family? Did she loose it then gain it back? We're the Baratheons born with it or did the gain special status after the rebellion? Did the Starks get kings blood after Rob was proclaimed king in the north?

Just curious where the line is and how this works. Is this just a hand wave "magic" thing or is there a midichlorians reason or rhyme to all of this?
Dany would likely have it from birth, being born a Targaryen. Doubt she ever lost it...her son's death served as sacrifice to keep Khal Drogo alive, afterall.

The Baratheons could potentially have it from multiple sources. 1st, they were the rulers of the Stormlands, if I'm not mistaken. Meaning, they were kings before the Targaryen invasion. 2nd, one of the Baratheons married a Targaryen princess, and all of their offspring would have Targaryen (king's) blood. 3rd, Robert became king of the realm after his rebellion.

Same way the Starks could have it from old, due to Kings of the North before the Targaryens.

Then again, it could all be a load of bunk, and the king's blood from Robert's bsstard in the leeches didn't do anything magical, and the deaths were merely coincidence. After all, no one affiliated with Stannis had anything to do with killing Rob or Joffrey or Balon Greyjoy. Rob was likely to get killed one way or another, either by betrayal like he did, or in combat, or for treason if the Lannisters caught him. Joffrey had it coming with the Tyrells and LF conspiring even before Stannis attacked on King's Landing.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Joe Cole • 11:20a, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Have they ever actually referenced there being a leader of the harpies on the show?
no, but they never really did in the books either...they were just holding Hizdhar zo Loraq on suspicion of being the leader after the attempted poisoning. They had no proof.

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Joe Cole
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11:29a, 6/9/15
I thought they did in books and always called him "The Harpy" and there always seemed to be a suspicion about who it was.
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LawAg05
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11:37a, 6/9/15
AG
They always suspected him as the Harpy, which is why Hizdar's death in the show at the hands of the Harpy was significant. Hizdar was able to secure a temporary peace with the Harpies with his betrothal to Dany. The thinking among book readers was that he must have some influence on them in order to do this. But Hizdar = the Harpy was just a theory, just like the same theories about the Green Grace or Shavepate being the Harpy.

I guess it is still possible Hizdar = Harpy is true in the books, but I think the show put this to rest.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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11:45a, 6/9/15
AG
Speaking of the Sons of the Harpy, how did they smuggle their Harpy masks into the arena that day? Does Astapor Field at Shavepate Stadium not have a bag-check policy? Or did they just put them under the seats like they do for a free giveaway at the ballpark, but instead of a "Don't Blame Me, I voted for Another 10 Generations of Slavery" bumpersticker, you've got your own commemorative replica Son of the Harpy mask, and you're like, "Well, guess I'm a Harpy today, oh well, glad I brought my shiv."
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W.C. Griffin '09
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In reply to redline248 • 11:54a, 6/9/15
AG
The Baratheons actually weren't the Storm Kings. Orys Baratheon came to Westeros with Aegon the Conqueror and was his right hand man. It was rumored he was Aegon's half-brother. Orys killed the Storm King, a Durrandon, and married his daughter. They have royal Durrandon blood and possibly a double dip of Targaryen. That's kind of nitpicking though.
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Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 12:14p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Speaking of the Sons of the Harpy, how did they smuggle their Harpy masks into the arena that day? Does Astapor Field at Shavepate Stadium not have a bag-check policy? Or did they just put them under the seats like they do for a free giveaway at the ballpark, but instead of a "Don't Blame Me, I voted for Another 10 Generations of Slavery" bumpersticker, you've got your own commemorative replica Son of the Harpy mask, and you're like, "Well, guess I'm a Harpy today, oh well, glad I brought my shiv."

well they all wear long robes...easy to hide it under those.....

on my second watching my daughter and i were noting 1. how few unsullied they brought as protection (dumb) and 2. how stupidly close the queens stage was to the fan section behind it and there was basically 2 guards back there protecting her backside. the harpies just basically walked onto it from behind. and everyone (daario, the guards, tyrion, etc.) were just facing forward and not concerned at all with security from that side.

in the books at least they seemed to be in an isolated box that was better protected.
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jenn96
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12:15p, 6/9/15
AG
This is a snip from a book readers review at Pajiba that sums up my feelings really well on some of the show changes:

quote:
Then we come to a bewildering mid-episode major death. Apparently Martin told Benioff and Weiss that Shireen would die in the books. The problem is that there's no way for STANNIS to sacrifice her in the books, they're hundreds of miles apart. But Melisandre and Selyse are at the Wall with Shireen. Maybe they feel that this decision was necessary to show who Stannis really is, but I think it might be more interesting to set Stannis against his wife, a religious fanatic, or Melisandre, desperate to do anything to appease her god, particularly if the sacrifice brings the promised results. Stannis is obsessed with justice. There is not justice in this. And now a character who was previously reasonably sympathetic, who had his share of supporters among the viewers and readers (I see you, Stannis the Mannis people) is a villain through and through. It's not like this show has a shortage of villains, but it has had a shortage of sweetness and now more of that has been lost.
I think that's my biggest problem with a lot of these "shocking" changes. They seem to want to be shocking more than they want to be interesting. There was an interesting way to tell the story of Ramsay and Sansa, one that added shading to a character who is so fully a monster it's nearly laughable, but they didn't do that. There was a chance to show Meryn Trant as a typical bully, but nothing more, and see Arya actually struggle with the idea of killing a glorified palace guard and if it was worth losing her new life. There was a chance with the Stannis story to introduce serious conflict right in the middle of his leadership structure, between him and Melisandre or him and Selyse, but instead we're giving a new darker side to Stannis over either of the women. Selyse's last minute attempt to save her daughter was surprising, and touching, but I'll be interested to see if they build on that at all in the coming season.
Now, there's definitely a caveat here in that we don't know how Shireen dies in the books yet and it's still very likely that Stannis will be the one to kill her. But overall, I tend to agree with this assessment.
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AggieHank86
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In reply to The Dog Lord • 12:18p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
I think that one of Dany's visions in the house of the undying is of Rhaegar saying "and his is the song of ice and fire" in reference to his son (believed to be Aegon though because Ellia is also in the vision I believe). Is that the only reference to "a song of ice and fire" in the books that anyone can remember?
I just re-read the passage from the House of the Undying, and there is no description of the woman in the bed or of the infant. Likewise, there is no description of the surroundings, which would allow us to determine whether the vignette took place at the Red Keep or at the Tower of Joy.

The woman in the vision could have been Elia Martell in the Red Keep, and the infant could have been his son with her. The use of the name Aegon in this passage seems to be intended to make us THINK that, but the sentence "Aegon is a good name for a king" is never tied directly to THIS infant.

The woman in the vision could ALSO have been Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy, and the infant could have been the child later known as Jon Snow. I have never been able to figure the timeline as to whether Rhaegar was present at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (including when she gave birth) and left to fight in the war, leaving her there.

Lastly, it is possible that the woman/infant are Lyanna/Jon, but that Rhaegar is actually talking about his other son (Aegon) back in Kings Landing.
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JaneDoe02
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In reply to SpreadsheetAg • 12:38p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Mother's Mercy - Cersie confesses and recieves mercy from "The Mother"
I think this is correct.
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MW03
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12:58p, 6/9/15
AG
See, I don't think it's necessarily out of character for Stannis at all. I never thought he took some perverse pleasure in being a ********; rather, he found it to be his obligation to be a ******** because someone had to do it. For example, I never thought he wanted to cut off Davos' fingers, but he had to do it because he is a man of ultimate conviction. And he rewarded him with a knighthood to try and balance the scales in his own mind after he'd done as he was convicted to do.

In the show, Stannis is all in with the red god. He's convicted in that and consequently going to see it through to the end. If anything, Stannis wavering in his conviction to the red god and choosing to save Shireen would have been far more out of character than gritting his teeth and watching her burn. Not because he wanted to sacrifice his daughter. On the contrary, several episodes of exposition tell you he loves her very much. But he had to do it because it was what was called of him in his sense of obligation to the decision upon which he set his mind.

All of the potential suitors for the Iron Throne seemingly had/have tragic flaws. Robert was a drunk. Joffery was a tyrant. Tommen is too young. Viserys was too impatient. Renly was too pliable.

Stannis is defined by his rigidness.
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MW03
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1:14p, 6/9/15
AG
I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that he's set his mind on the red god being the means to his end, and he's not one to change his mind. Even when doing so would save the life of his little girl.
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