Thumbs up if you've ever thought about creating a sock and ruining the TV only thread with as many real and fake spoilers as you can think of.
**Official Game of Thrones: Season 5 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)**
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Last: 8 yr ago by Al Bula
Nevermind. 
quote:I think there is a big assumption being made by the audience here (us) that Modern Honor (Arthurian Honor/Chivalry) is somehow present in Westeros...quote:Not to argue something to death, but I disagree. He keeps her around because it is the morally righteous thing to do. Killing or abandoning you child is never noble or honorable. That is why Frey wouldn't have kept a kid with dragon scale, he has no honor.
Stannis arrogantly assumes that he is noble and righteous so he is duty bound to keep his kid alive and around regardless of the fact he is disappointed and ashamed of her and has little affection for her. The show has made him have feelings for her, not the books.
I am not sure if that's entirely their morality. Without knowing what the 7 teaches, or what examples it gives in its Dogma regarding sacrafice (because Stannis' troops used to all be of the 7) or what the Red God teaches of Sacrafice (since all of Stannis' troops have converted to the R'Hllor) we cannot make assumption about the honor of what he's done from their perspective, only our own.
For example: I read an article today in the West Australian (newspaper in Perth) about a Senator here in Australia, with Chinese decent, who thinks that China acted justly at Tienenman Square because they had the might to murder hundreds of people to prevent democratic uprising. He ties that into the South China Sea controversy by saying whichever nation is mightier (USA or China) will win the argument (presumably through force) because "might makes right".
Can we please not have an argument about the show thread on the BOOK thread?
I've been thinking a lot about the D&D comment that GRRM "told them" about Shireen. I do think Shireen will be sacrificed but I think the context will be very different. At this point I think the far more likely scenario is Mel sacrifices her at the Wall to bring back Jon Snow without Stannis' knowledge. In the end Shireen's death is a minor plot point so I could see how they changed it, though it completely shifts how viewers look at Stannis. I also think this means that Stannis will die and die soon which would allow for his actions with Shireen to be far less important.
I also think there is a chance that Stannis may have sent Davos to the Wall with a different version of the "pink letter".
I also think there is a chance that Stannis may have sent Davos to the Wall with a different version of the "pink letter".
quote:I think this is more right in the Show than the books, especially if you count Dunk and Egg. The Books emphasize the rituals of knighthood more and it is a major reason why The Hound does not wish to be knighted because he sees his brother as a hypocrite and thus all knights to be hypocrites. Ser Duncan in the D&E stories is also very much a true knight, as is Ser Barristan and the knights of the KG from when the Targs still ran things. I guess the point is that honor and chivalry in relation to knighthood is supposed to matter but it has deteriorated, that is part of why the Faith Militant has grown.quote:I think there is a big assumption being made by the audience here (us) that Modern Honor (Arthurian Honor/Chivalry) is somehow present in Westeros...quote:Not to argue something to death, but I disagree. He keeps her around because it is the morally righteous thing to do. Killing or abandoning you child is never noble or honorable. That is why Frey wouldn't have kept a kid with dragon scale, he has no honor.
Stannis arrogantly assumes that he is noble and righteous so he is duty bound to keep his kid alive and around regardless of the fact he is disappointed and ashamed of her and has little affection for her. The show has made him have feelings for her, not the books.
I am not sure if that's entirely their morality. Without knowing what the 7 teaches, or what examples it gives in its Dogma regarding sacrafice (because Stannis' troops used to all be of the 7) or what the Red God teaches of Sacrafice (since all of Stannis' troops have converted to the R'Hllor) we cannot make assumption about the honor of what he's done from their perspective, only our own.
For example: I read an article today in the West Australian (newspaper in Perth) about a Senator here in Australia, with Chinese decent, who thinks that China acted justly at Tienenman Square because they had the might to murder hundreds of people to prevent democratic uprising. He ties that into the South China Sea controversy by saying whichever nation is mightier (USA or China) will win the argument (presumably through force) because "might makes right".
That's a really good observation. And very historically apt. Anarchy and civil war are not good conditions to have a society where chivalry has any role. Look at England during the first Anarchy after King Henry I died, or during the War of the Roses. Brutality was a lot more important than honor when the cost of being "honorable" could be everything you loved.
quote:
I've been thinking a lot about the D&D comment that GRRM "told them" about Shireen. I do think Shireen will be sacrificed but I think the context will be very different. At this point I think the far more likely scenario is Mel sacrifices her at the Wall to bring back Jon Snow without Stannis' knowledge. In the end Shireen's death is a minor plot point so I could see how they changed it, though it completely shifts how viewers look at Stannis. I also think this means that Stannis will die and die soon which would allow for his actions with Shireen to be far less important.
I also think there is a chance that Stannis may have sent Davos to the Wall with a different version of the "pink letter".
I think Mel saw Sans a in the flames and it tells Jon that she is there and marries to Ramsey.
I really wonder if Shireen will have the same fate in Winds of Winter. She's at Castle Black with mom and Mel. I guess if Stannis loses early in WoW, he could send a raven back to Castle Black to have them burn her.
I'm still pro Stannis, not necessarily as King of Westeros, but just as an asswhipper.
I'm still pro Stannis, not necessarily as King of Westeros, but just as an asswhipper.
If you watch the "Inside the Episode" through HBO On Demand, it sounds pretty clear that GRRM told D&D that the Shireen sacrifice was forthcoming.
I think the only thing that saves the dorne story at this point is for Doran to do the R+L=J reveal. He has to also know the history as they were in Dorne right?
Interesting quote I saw on reddit relating to the Stannis discussion we are having:
quote:
"It is not a question of wanting. The throne is mine, as Robert's heir. That is law. After me, it must pass to my daughter, unless Selyse should finally give me a son. I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother."
-Stannis, ASOS
quote:My point is they said the sacrifice is coming because GRRM said so but that doesn't mean the context might be completely different. If Mel sacrifices her with his wife but Stannis is not there it is very different and I could see that happening.
If you watch the "Inside the Episode" through HBO On Demand, it sounds pretty clear that GRRM told D&D that the Shireen sacrifice was forthcoming.
quote:
That's a really good observation. And very historically apt. Anarchy and civil war are not good conditions to have a society where chivalry has any role. Look at England during the first Anarchy after King Henry I died, or during the War of the Roses. Brutality was a lot more important than honor when the cost of being "honorable" could be everything you loved.
With all respect to a fellow British history lover, I think you've read Pillars of the Earth or the Phillipa Gregory novels one too many times. There was absolutely a code of chivalry in those periods and there were very real consequences for those who breached it (e.g. Richard III and the Princes in the Tower). It's true that customs like "the right of ransom" were suppressed during those dynastic conflicts where anailation of entire bloodlines became an objective, but I've never considered mercy a key component of chivalry or personal honor. I would be interested to know what actions you found lacking chivalry that went unpunished by either retribution or public humiliation. I could cite numerous examples of chivalrous acts from those conflicts, but this is a topic for another forum.
To me, chivalry is grounded in being true to one's word, true to one's beliefs, and acting with absolute courage. Ned, Rob, Oberyn and Jon all violated this code with their dishonesty and/or extreme cowardice.
I truly don't care that much about Ned due to the fact that he didn't even last one book in a 7 book series, so dont think I'm some fanboy. But when Robert's impending death was certain, he was approached and told to seize the throne and have Cersei neutralized, but he refused solely due to honor. It's why he held onto that stupid piece of paper as if it meant anything to those looking to take power; he had too much faith in honor and duty. JMO
I fully admit that I have been a Stannis homer as the tv series goes. One of my favorite characters with some of the best lines and dialogue written for that part, IMO. The same is not true for the books. He is not a POV and not very developed.
That being said, I just watched episode 9 this evening and that was one of the most f'ed up things I have ever seen on tv. I actually muted the tv when she started screaming.
I predict that once word of this reaches Davos he will leave the company of Stannis for good. In fact, I would wage a paycheck on it. Davos is a free agent now. And whereas I had come to really enjoy both Mel and Stannis as characters, the Others can take them at this point.
That being said, I just watched episode 9 this evening and that was one of the most f'ed up things I have ever seen on tv. I actually muted the tv when she started screaming.
I predict that once word of this reaches Davos he will leave the company of Stannis for good. In fact, I would wage a paycheck on it. Davos is a free agent now. And whereas I had come to really enjoy both Mel and Stannis as characters, the Others can take them at this point.
quote:
"I know the cost! Last night, gazing into that hearth, I saw things in the flames as well. I saw a king, a crown of fire on his brows, burning burning, Davos. His own crown consumed his flesh & turned him into ash. Do you think I need Melisandre to tell me what that means? Or you?"
- Stannis
quote:stannis knew this...he did not send him to the wall just for reinforcements....in fact it may not have been for that at all...or maybe that and to tell him to stay or tell jon to keep him. remember the letter he gave davos was sealed. davos tried to say anyone could deliver it, stannis made a premeditated argument that davos might have to convince jon...unlikely jon showed he pretty much obeyed the kings orders.
I fully admit that I have been a Stannis homer as the tv series goes. One of my favorite characters with some of the best lines and dialogue written for that part, IMO. The same is not true for the books. He is not a POV and not very developed.
That being said, I just watched episode 9 this evening and that was one of the most f'ed up things I have ever seen on tv. I actually muted the tv when she started screaming.
I predict that once word of this reaches Davos he will leave the company of Stannis for good. In fact, I would wage a paycheck on it. Davos is a free agent now. And whereas I had come to really enjoy both Mel and Stannis as characters, the Others can take them at this point.
quote:
Selyse throwing her arms around Stannis's legs and begging him to have Edric Storm sacrificed.
"He is mine own blood. Stop clutching me woman."
quote:
Clayton Suggs - "A sacrifice will prove our faith still burns true, Sire."
Godry the Giantslayer - "The old gods of the north have sent this storm upon us. Only R'hllor can end it. We must give him an unbeliever."
Stannis - "Half my army is made up of unbelievers. I will have no burnings. Pray harder."
Earlier:
quote:
Davos: I do not know this Lord of Light, but I knew the gods we burned this morning. The Smith has kept my ships safe, while the Mother has given me seven strong sons.
Stannis: Your wife has given you seven strong sons. Do you pray to her? It was wood we burned this morning.
good point. Probably the last decent thing Stannis would do was to send Davos to the Wall knowing what was coming and sure, the letter could say anything.
Such as: Lord Davos, enclosed you will find a round trip ticket aboard the luxurious Bravossi galley Titan's Paramour. That's right Onion Knight, you've earned it. I'm sending you on an all expense paid tour of the Free Cities with two female companions trained in the pleasure houses of Myr. So fuel up at the Wall and get yourself down to Duskendale in a fortnight to catch your ship. You need some time off. Look me up in the spring. If I'm not dead or a wight, I'll have a cushy Master of Ships post open for you. Your bestie, Stannis.
PS. We intercepted a raven from the Dreadfort bound for Winterfell. It appears that that Ramsey Bolton is going to start a malicious rumor that I allowed Mel to sacrifice my daughter to the red god so this f'ing snow would stop falling a couple of days. Granted, that would be great, but it's bullsh**. I mean you know Mel, she does some pretty twisted sh** but we have standards. Alright, enough of my problems, go party your dick off in Volantis and keep in touch. Peace out.
Such as: Lord Davos, enclosed you will find a round trip ticket aboard the luxurious Bravossi galley Titan's Paramour. That's right Onion Knight, you've earned it. I'm sending you on an all expense paid tour of the Free Cities with two female companions trained in the pleasure houses of Myr. So fuel up at the Wall and get yourself down to Duskendale in a fortnight to catch your ship. You need some time off. Look me up in the spring. If I'm not dead or a wight, I'll have a cushy Master of Ships post open for you. Your bestie, Stannis.
PS. We intercepted a raven from the Dreadfort bound for Winterfell. It appears that that Ramsey Bolton is going to start a malicious rumor that I allowed Mel to sacrifice my daughter to the red god so this f'ing snow would stop falling a couple of days. Granted, that would be great, but it's bullsh**. I mean you know Mel, she does some pretty twisted sh** but we have standards. Alright, enough of my problems, go party your dick off in Volantis and keep in touch. Peace out.
quote:
"Edric" he started.
"is one boy! He may be the best boy who ever drew breath and it would not matter. My duty is to the realm." His hand swept across the Painted Table. "How many boys dwell in Westeros? How many girls? How many men, how many women? The darkness will devour them all, she says. The night that never ends. She talks of prophecies . . . a hero reborn in the sea, living dragons hatched from dead stone . . . she speaks of signs and swears they point to me. I never asked for this, no more than I asked to be king. Yet dare I disregard her?" He ground his teeth. "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must . . . we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty.
quote:
"When I was a lad I found an injured goshawk and nursed her back to health. Proudwing, I named her. She would perch on my shoulder and flutter from room to room after me and take food from my hand, but she would not soar. Time and again I would take her hawking, but she never flew higher than the treetops. Robert called her Weakwing. He owned a gyrfalcon named Thunderclap who never missed her strike. One day our great-uncle Ser Harbert told me to try a different bird. I was making a fool of myself with Proudwing, he said, and he was rightThe Seven have never brought me so much as a sparrow. It is time I tried another hawk, Davos" [religion/god]
On the AA stuff with Stannis:
quote:
"Enough!" Stannis roared. "I will not be mocked to my face, do you hear me? I will not!" He yanked his longsword from its scabbard. The steel gleamed strangely bright in the wan sunlight, now red, now yellow, now blazing white. The air around it seemed to shimmer, as if from heat.
I have to admit...it was disturbing, but I was more affected by Ned killing Lady and that horse being on fire in Stannis' vamp than Shireen's scene.
quote:We have different definitions of "developed." To me, Stannis is one of the most intriguing characters in ASOIAF. Some of the quotes on this sixty-second page of this thread are proof. Not being a POV character does not mean he is not well-developed character. Other characters have done fine (IMO) at laying out Stannis' development.
I fully admit that I have been a Stannis homer as the tv series goes. One of my favorite characters with some of the best lines and dialogue written for that part, IMO. The same is not true for the books. He is not a POV and not very developed.
GRRM surrounded all things Stannis-related in GoT (book not show) with a sense of fear and foreboding. Like me, a lot of other readers have probably been waiting a long time on the big Stannis payoff. I hope he finally gets to retake Winterfell or some notable badass feat before he goes bye-bye.
****Winds of Winter Spoiler****
Part of why I am so frustrated about this is the Theon chapter from WoW that has been released. It is easily the best chapter with Stannis in the entire series and he is a full on bad ass. Having him be the one that sacrifices Shireen vs having Mel sacrifice Shireen (though that doesn't happen in the chapter) completely changes how those characters are viewed. Here is a key quote as he sends off Justin Massey to Braavos to buy sellswords:
Part of why I am so frustrated about this is the Theon chapter from WoW that has been released. It is easily the best chapter with Stannis in the entire series and he is a full on bad ass. Having him be the one that sacrifices Shireen vs having Mel sacrifice Shireen (though that doesn't happen in the chapter) completely changes how those characters are viewed. Here is a key quote as he sends off Justin Massey to Braavos to buy sellswords:
quote:
"It may be that we shall lose this battle," the king said grimly. "In Braavos you may hear that I am dead. It may even be true. You shall find my sellswords nonetheless."
The knight hesitated. "Your Grace, if you are dead "
" you will avenge my death, and seat my daughter on the Iron Throne. Or die in the attempt."
I really don't think this will happen, but how sick would it be if "The Mother's Mercy" = Lady Stoneheart????
Out of nowhere, she shows up at Winterfell and starts hanging some dreadfort bastages.
Out of nowhere, she shows up at Winterfell and starts hanging some dreadfort bastages.
quote:Would be pretty awesome, but probably a bit jarring for the TV audience. Given that there's a lot to take care of in the finale, it would be difficult to set up LSH and have it work imo.
I really don't think this will happen, but how sick would it be if "The Mother's Mercy" = Lady Stoneheart????
Out of nowhere, she shows up at Winterfell and starts hanging some dreadfort bastages.
quote:
I have to admit...it was disturbing, but I was more affected by Ned killing Lady and that horse being on fire in Stannis' vamp than Shireen's scene.
That's really messed up.
I always find it funny when people get upset about animals dying in tv or film. Is it bc we don't eat horses or dogs? No problem with some chickens or cows being killed?
I'll take you one step further. I was getting mildly upset watching a damned CGI dragon getting speared.
Yeah, but that's bc you are more emotionally invested in that as a named character, that you've watched grow from a hatchling, and is crucial to the story.
AeroAg2012
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