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I know we all read this uber fantasy about dragons and zombies, but y'all some nerds.

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Reading all this reminded me of the days of trying to figure out what was going on with Lost.

Some people have way to much time on their hands to figure this stuff out...and frankly I love it...

Actually now that I'm thinking about it, whoever said it would be impossible to keep the wraps over whether Jon is dead or not is right. So I'm thinking that the 2nd to last episode will mainly focus on the NW, ending with Jon getting stabbied by his bros. Then the last episode will focus on Cersei going down, and the any attention on the NW will be them preparing Jons funeral. And then, with strong allusions the end to season one, Jon will rise from the ashes. Probably won't be as hot though, cuz you know, boobs.

In their defense, they've had close to 20 years to think about it all. Stupid Martin.

I can't tell if people would actually like melisandre if she gave her life to resurrect Jon.

I like the idea of Jon dying as the 9th episode shocker and reviving him in 10.

So how many episodes until Cersei's big walk? Getting close.

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I like the idea of Jon dying as the 9th episode shocker and reviving him in 10.

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What's the fun of killing a major character if a week later you're like "psych!"

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SIAP -- What if Melisandre tells Stannis that they need to sacrifice someone of royal blood to the red god before Stannis heads south to Winterfell. The only one that fits is Shireen. Maybe not though...

Melisandre knows Stannis is devoted to his daughter and that he would never agree to her sacrifice. Maybe she also knows Jon Snow is of royal blood. So she and Stannis get the rest of the KW brothers to betray Jon and stab him, thus setting up for his sacrifice to favor Stannis' march south. However, end of the season shows Jon arising from the fire.

Just a ridiculous thought...

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Maester Aemon is still there in the show

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I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar are more than half Targaryen and less than half Blackwood even if no other bloodlines were introduced.

First of all you have to suspend knowledge of any previous Targaryen history if you assume Egg is full Targaryen.

Egg's kids (Jaehaerys II and Shaera) would be half Blackwood and half Targaryen. Jaehaerys II and Shaera had two kids from incest, Aerys II and Rhaella. They would both be 3/4 Targaryen and 1/4 Blackwood, and they mated as well.

Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar should be more like 7/8 Targaryen and 1/8 Blackwood each because the Blackwood genes would be diluted by repeated incest.

Still, that doesn't work out because we know various families intermarried with the Targaryens. I took a quick look at the Targaryen family tree. If I read correctly, Egg's mother (Dayne), grandmother (Penrose) and great-grandmother (Martell) were not Targaryens.

In summary, Dany has lots more Targaryen blood in her than just half (but I am not a geneticist, LOL).

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Actually, if Egg's kids were each half Targaryen and half Blackwood, their children would also be half Targaryen and half Blackwood. They couldn't become more Targaryen unless one parent was more than half Targaryen. If you have 2 mixing bowls, each filled with half sugar and half flour uniformly mixed, and you take half of each bowl and place it in a third bowl, the third bowl is still half sugar and half flour. The mixture is 1/4 flour from bowl A, 1/4 flour from bowl B, 1/4 sugar from bowl A, 1/4 sugar from bowl B, and thus half sugar and half flour.

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Thank you. The response from ThirdCoast made my head hurt.

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Lots to like in this episode
R+L= J references
Melisandre seducing
Sansa looking good
Dany looking good on balcony, but not having to deal with her for several scenes

Definitely some kind of setup for a Shireen sacrifice

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I'm not seeing Stannis deciding to sacrifice his daughter after hugging it out with her.

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My (completely unsubstantiated theory: Stannis is killed by Brienne during the siege of Winterfell at the same time Jon is killed by his brothers. Melisandra sacrifices Shireen in an attempt to "raise Azor Ahai." Stannis stays dead, and amid her distraught and confusion, Jon's eyes open.

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That seems rather plausible

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I just thought of this, but since we all are assuming Jon is going to die and be brought back to life, wouldn't that release him from his vow to the Night's Watch? He could then theoretically leave and become a major player with a bunch of wildlings sympathetic to his cause.

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"From this day, until the end of my days"...

SO unless he actually ceases to be Jon Snow and actually becomes AA, I don't think he can make this leap. They do seem to get alot of fun by teasing out the vow (even Maester Aemon) with technicalities though.

Been re-reading the first novel of late and had 2 thoughts.

1) How the hell did that dire wolf get south of the wall? Dumb question, but it is odd. Did it jump? Did it take a boat?

2) I suspect Robert Baratheon actually knew that Lyanna had chosen Rhaegar over him and everything from then on was a lie he perpetuated to give acceptance to his rage. A lot of his "selective memory" about things during conversations with Cersei, Eddard, etc. makes me think he's just unable to accept that the woman he wanted picked someone else.

Is it clear that Lyanna picked Rhaegar?

It doesn't seem like Eddard ever thought that?

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Danerys' great-grandfather (Aegon V) married a Blackwood, meaning that his children (Dany's grandparents) were half-Blackwood. When they married and reproduced, THEIR children (Dany's parents) were also half-Blackwood.

So, Damerys herself is (genetically) half Blackwood and half Targaryen.

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I'm pretty sure it doesn't work that way. Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar are more than half Targaryen and less than half Blackwood even if no other bloodlines were introduced.

First of all you have to suspend knowledge of any previous Targaryen history if you assume Egg is full Targaryen.

Egg's kids (Jaehaerys II and Shaera) would be half Blackwood and half Targaryen. Jaehaerys II and Shaera had two kids from incest, Aerys II and Rhaella. They would both be 3/4 Targaryen and 1/4 Blackwood, and they mated as well.

Dany, Viserys and Rhaegar should be more like 7/8 Targaryen and 1/8 Blackwood each because the Blackwood genes would be diluted by repeated incest.

Still, that doesn't work out because we know various families intermarried with the Targaryens. I took a quick look at the Targaryen family tree. If I read correctly, Egg's mother (Dayne), grandmother (Penrose) and great-grandmother (Martell) were not Targaryens.

In summary, Dany has lots more Targaryen blood in her than just half (but I am not a geneticist, LOL).

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I am very certain that ancestry DOES "work that way."

Teacher: "If I have a glass that is half juice and half water, and I blend that glass with another glass that is half juice and half water, what are the percentages of juice and water in the combined beverage?"

ThirdCoast: "Three-quarters juice and one-quarter water."

Teacher:


I actually spent some time trying to understand this mysterious "increasing percentage of Targaryen ancestry," and I think I may have found the thought process that ThirdCoast followed. It is based upon entry-level genetics.

Let's assume that every Targ trait is dominant and that every Blackwood trait is recessive. Let's also assume that all of these traits are found on a single gene, which passes from generation to generation as a whole. The Targ gene is "T" and a "pure Targ" would be "TT." The Blackwood gene is "B" and a "pure Blackwood" would be "BB."

If we breed a Targ and a Blackwood (Generation 1 or G1), the results (Generation 2 or G2) would LOOK like a Targ, despite the fact that one half of the genes of each (the recessive half) would be Blackwood. The genetic makeup of each G2 offspring would be TB, with the T being dominant.

Now, G2 brother and sister breed. Assuming four offspring (Generation 3 or G3), we would expect one child to be TT, two children to be TB, and one child to be BB. TT would be "pure Targ," the two TBs would look Targ but still carry one-half Blackwood genetics, and BB would be "pure Blackwood."

If two offspring from G3 with TT genotype breed, you are back to "pure Targ" in G4. If a G3-TT and a G3-TB breed, you would expect 3/4 of the G4 offspring to be TT (pure Targ) and 1/4 to be TB (looking fully Targ, due to the dominant gene, but still carrying the Blackwood gene).

As long as any TB is born into the family, there still exists the possibility of a "throwback" to a BB.

Of course, genetics aren't nearly that simple.

I thought Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martel when he scorned her at the Harrenhall tournament.

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Is it clear that Lyanna picked Rhaegar?

It doesn't seem like Eddard ever thought that?

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The Targaryen dynasty had to go. It seems that at least half of them were BSC, as Selmy explained to Daenerys. Eddard just did not have it "in him" to subordinate the good of the realm to his sister's happiness. That stubborn Stark honor.

Of course, it is also possible that Eddard did not learn the truth until he spoke to Lyanna after he "rescued" her down in Dorne, long after he and Robert had killed Rhaegar up at the Ruby Ford.

When he learned the truth, he had to keep it a secret for the good of the realm ... and because he promised Lyanna to keep the secret and to protect little Jon.

The internal dissonance between the obligations associated with his promise to Lyanna and his friendship with Robert was a constant heartache for him.

Was it ever discussed WHERE Lyanna was when she was supposedly kidnapped? The wiki simply says Rhaegar, Oswell Whent, & Arthur Dayne kidnapped her sometime after the tourney at Harrenhall but not exactly when or where. This info apparently came from Rhaegar's section of the World of Ice & Fire.

While it is still possible that Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna and raped her the odds are very long. It starts with the fact that it is completely out of character for both Rhaegar and Lyanna. Rhaegar by all accounts was learned, melancholy, and a true gentleman prince. Lyanna was essentially an older Arya clone that was able to kick her brother's asses at times (and her brothers were tough SOB's). The idea that Rhaegar was able to kidnap and rape her while keeping her captive just doesn't make sense. She would have killed him or gotten herself killed first is a far more likely scenario if that were to happen.

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Was it ever discussed WHERE Lyanna was when she was supposedly kidnapped? The wiki simply says Rhaegar, Oswell Whent, & Arthur Dayne kidnapped her sometime after the tourney at Harrenhall but not exactly when or where. This info apparently came from Rhaegar's section of the World of Ice & Fire.

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It is never implicitly stated but it would have had to have been almost immediately after the Tourney before the Starks went North. I just don't see how anyone could kidnap a Stark in the North and escape.

You know they could get away with killing John Snow in the last episode, and not having it leak that he was shooting for the next season...... If he is actually dead for good.

Maybe they shot a bunch of extra stuff during filming for this season that is intended for next.

Though I think it's unlikely

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You know they could get away with killing John Snow in the last episode, and not having it leak that he was shooting for the next season...... If he is actually dead for good.

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Seems to me that you'd want Snow to come back in the season finale if in fact he were to come back. It's a much better "hanger" than bringing him back to start a season or midway through a season.

If you're going to resurrect a major character, kill them in the penultimate episode, create a bunch of exposition to move the next season in the finale, and then close on the shocking resurrection.

I mean... I agree that is what should happen. It just seems very GRRM to devote almost a hundred chapters to a guy and then just snuff his plot line out with no warning or closure.

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Is it clear that Lyanna picked Rhaegar?

It doesn't seem like Eddard ever thought that?

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Eddard didnt ride against the Targaryens because of Lyanna, he rode because the Mad King slayed his father and brother.

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I thought Rhaegar was already married to Elia Martel when he scorned her at the Harrenhall tournament.

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Correct. There is a possibility of a Rhaegar/Lyanna legitimate marriage. The sack of KLs happens, Elia is murdered. Stark takes a week or two to ride to Storms End, Stannis is starving, Davos helps, Eddard arrives and the Tyrells bend the knee. THEN Eddard takes 6 dudes all the way down into dorne to find Lyanna, which likely takes a few more weeks. Rheagar is the one who renamed it the Tower of Joy. So one could certainly claim there was a shotgun marriage after Rhaegar was widowed.

But does it matter if a dragon is a basterd? A dragon is a dragon.

Im becoming more and more convinced of the three dragons. Tyrion, Jon, Dany.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Joanna_Lannister

See the quote from Barristan at the bottom. I think Tywin sought to resign Hand not because of the verbal insult (I dont think he is that thin-skinned) but because his wife returned to her old lover, King Aerys. The following year, Tyrion was born. She is the third person we see who has died in childbirth. Queen Rhaella and Lyanna being the other two...both known to be sexed by Targaryens (King Aerys and Rhaegar)

Wasn't Rhaegar killed by Robert at the trident before the sack of KL?

Wow...looking into King Aerys, he had 7 legitimate kids with Queen Rhaella. The 5th one is Jaehaerys who was born a year after Tyrion. Jae's birth made the Mad King joyful and young again, but the child died in the same year spiraling him toward depression. After weeks of fasting and praying, he renounced mistresses.

Meaning he had many, why not Joanna?

I have always said Tywin hates Tyrion because of the lechery he sees Tyrion engage in. Tywin was cuckolded by Aerys, Aerys screwed as much as Robert lol (its good to be the King). Legally Tyrion is a Lannister, but Tywin would never let Tyrion be Lord of Casterly Rock. Why?! Its his only son and legal heir (if its his son). Why not? Tywin has always known/seen Aerys in Tyrion.

Its all there, you have to connect the dots.

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But does it matter if a dragon is a basterd? A dragon is a dragon.

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In Jon Snow's case, I think it matters more than anything in the world to him.

Who is going to be around (that knows the truth) to tell either Jon or Tyrion of their 'true' parentage, if any of these theories are correct?

Also, if Tywin wouldn't give Tyrion the rock b/c of Aerys, why would he let him be king's hand?

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Wasn't Rhaegar killed by Robert at the trident before the sack of KL?

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Yep. Damnit.

So that presents the questions, why did he rename the tower if it wasnt his sex tower, or his re-marriage tower? Looking at it now, he never traveled into Dorne himself because he commanded the armies.

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Wow...looking into King Aerys, he had 7 legitimate kids with Queen Rhaella. The 5th one is Jaehaerys who was born a year after Tyrion. Jae's birth made the Mad King joyful and young again, but the child died in the same year spiraling him toward depression. After weeks of fasting and praying, he renounced mistresses.

Meaning he had many, why not Joanna?

I have always said Tywin hates Tyrion because of the lechery he sees Tyrion engage in. Tywin was cuckolded by Aerys, Aerys screwed as much as Robert lol (its good to be the King). Legally Tyrion is a Lannister, but Tywin would never let Tyrion be Lord of Casterly Rock. Why?! Its his only son and legal heir (if its his son). Why not? Tywin has always known/seen Aerys in Tyrion.

Its all there, you have to connect the dots.

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I hate to ruin all the fun, but would Tyrion be the only Targaryen in history who does not have eyes in some shade of purple and hair in some shade of silver/gold?

We need a copy of the Maester Malleon book "The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms, With Descriptions of Many High Lords and Noble Ladies and Their Children."

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Also, if Tywin wouldn't give Tyrion the rock b/c of Aerys, why would he let him be king's hand?

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He didnt, Tywin was legally Hand, Tyrion was sent to work in Tywin's absence. A surrogate if you will.

But Hand isnt a Lordship, not like Head of Household and Bloodlines of House Lannister. When Tywin returned after Blackwater, Tyrion asked for "the Rock" and Tywin said he would never let him have CR, but he would find a job and title befitting a (legal) lannister.