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When I think of Moat Cailin, I think of The Neck. When I think of The Neck, I think of Howland Reed. When I think of Howland Reed, I think of the Tower of Joy. I think the High Sparrow is Howland Reed.

Somewhere on this thread I think there is a location shot of what is surely the Tower of Joy. I think that flashback is coming. Since the only living person left with any connection is Howland Reed, that flashback is surely coming from him.

Unless we're going to flashback to Ned flashing back. Or maybe Jon Snow has a "life flashing before his eyes moment" than ends at the TOJ. Hmmmm. Chew on that for a minute.

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i highly doubt the high sparrow is howland reed....

primarily because i am quite sure howland reed would be known by the lannisters and others...from his travels with Ned Stark.


but if not him, then who is the high sparrow....his background is relatively unknown except he was elected by the other sparrows. but he has to be someone important, you don't get jonathan price to play someone inconsequential.

i believe he may be a surviving Reyne from the Lannister crushing of the Reyne rebellion which is glorified in the popular song of the day the Rains of Castemere. Cersei in fact uses the story before Margaery's wedding to joffrey to intimidate her about what the lannisters are capable of.

why do you need to include that story, and song for that matter, unless it is important. the high sparrow may want revenge on house lannister because of the death of his entire family. had he been in the citadel studying the entire time he may not have been killed in the battle.

and now in the wake of the war the sparrows have become the leaders in effect of the Faith of the Seven religion because the current high septon and others are corrupted (by the lannisters and greed and their position, etc.).

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I don't think inclusion of the song is foreshadowing anything. They included it because it's a rich part of the history of the story and it made for some really badass moments in the story.

I'm not saying your theory is wrong, I just think that is the flimsiest of justifications.

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Note my emphasis was on the story cersei told not the song. I mentioned the song additionally.

I can't see any Reynes having survived Tywin Lannister. There would also be very few people around that knew what Howland Reed looked like (most of them being dead Northman who aren't anywhere near KL) and it's been more than 17 years since he essentially disappeared. The Howland Reed is the High Sparrow theory is very plausible, though it may not be true.

Howland Reed has been gone for 17 years? Then how did Meera and Jojen come along and didn't they claim their lord father sent them to Winterfell to pay honors for their house on his behalf?

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I don't think the High Sparrow is anyone of consequence (or at least his background is inconsequential). I think if he comes from wealth, or is high born, it takes away from his character. To me, he's someone who is not driven by a lust for power, and that makes him extremely dangerous in King's Landing, because he's the only major player who is not. He's driven by a fanatical devotion to his gods. That is something Cersei doesn't understand, so she can't manipulate him.

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I agree.

He means gone from public affairs, essentially. As far as we know he hasn't been outside of his own place since before book 1 started, and no one knows how to find their castle.

btw, what the hell is called...Gray water watch or something?

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I can't see any Reynes having survived Tywin Lannister. There would also be very few people around that knew what Howland Reed looked like (most of them being dead Northman who aren't anywhere near KL) and it's been more than 17 years since he essentially disappeared. The Howland Reed is the High Sparrow theory is very plausible, though it may not be true.

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Clan Reed are Northmen, and they follow the Old Religion. It seems unlikely that the titular head of the Clan would be leading a protestant movement within the Faith of the Seven.

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I can't see any Reynes having survived Tywin Lannister. There would also be very few people around that knew what Howland Reed looked like (most of them being dead Northman who aren't anywhere near KL) and it's been more than 17 years since he essentially disappeared. The Howland Reed is the High Sparrow theory is very plausible, though it may not be true.

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Clan Reed are Northmen, and they follow the Old Religion. It seems unlikely that the titular head of the Clan would be leading a protestant movement within the Faith of the Seven.

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I read about the Reed = High Sparrow theory before where someone mentioned how his depictions of the seven are faces carved in the wall (similar to what Weirwoods look like). He could have an interpretation of the old gods that includes the seven the way some religions include every other.

The fact the Reeds are followers of the Old Gods is the biggest fly in the ointment on the theory but it is minor. Another small issue is the actor they chose to play him is of average height but that isn't really that relevant either. All of that is easily dismissed imo though because the Knight of the Laughing Tree story speaks of how Howland traveled in disguise and how the people of the marshes are virtually unknown to the people of Westeros outside of the Starks.

The biggest reason I could see it happening is it has been made clear that Howland Reed was the most loyal follower of the Starks and Ned specifically. He has knowledge about Lyanna that no one else does. Yet we have not seen or heard from him and immediately after they found Lyanna he disappeared back in to the marshes and has not emerged since. Why make such a strong point that the Reeds are the most loyal of all the Houses to the Starks and yet they never emerge outside of Jojen and Meera?

In the books they are also mentioned as how Robb planned to get around Moat Cailin and where he sent the Lords with his Will that mentioned Jon Snow right before the Red Wedding. Yet those Lords have also not emerged since. Why have all that buildup around Howland Reed and have it amount to nothing or just a very late entry into the story? Having Reed as the High Sparrow makes a lot of sense. Doesn't mean that he is but it would follow logically.

Personally I have always found Howland Reed to be the most interesting character still alive that we haven't met.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that Howland Reed is a total spare. We didn't hear jack about him in the two seasons where his two children were wandering around aimlessly - where meaningful foreshadowing or set-up would have been very much appreciated. Instead we got Three Eyed Raven talk.

Tower of Joy will come up again in some fashion in the books, but I wouldn't hold my breath for it on the show. If it does, fantastic. But I don't really expect it.

But I certainly don't expect some twist where an obscure Northman who hasn't appeared in the books, or appeared in the show, or really been foreshadowed at all in the show, suddenly becomes the new Pope. That'd be weird. And would require quite a bit of setup for a "gotcha!" moment that nobody anticipates.

The show isn't that clever. Oberyn talked about hating the Lannisters about 8 times before he told Tyrion he would be his champion against the Mountain. You had about 10 different warnings about not trusting the Freys. Etc. Bringing back Benjen Stark (not seen since like, season 1 episode 3) or introducing Howland Reed in a "gotcha" moment would be so far out of the blue that I think most non-readers would be perplexed. And if TV viewers are perplexed, the show kind of fails.

It hasn't failed yet. If we're going to get Howland Reed, there are going to be a lot more blatant references than "Moat Cailin = Neck = Howland Reed". We'll probably get some long-winded exposition and history lessons first.

Just my two cents.

BTW I'm talking strictly show here

This is my biggest hang up on why Reed/crannogs are NOT at Moat Catlin, there is no way he would let Sansa Stark through there without something happening.

I think their (little finger and Sansa) travel through MC was specifically left out of the show, to imply that Moat Catlin is empty.

Granted it hasn't been mentioned in the show but in passing, but you'd think they would include a scene from inside MC or the swamplands if there were people there... At least I do.

All we see is them looking at MC and the next time we see them they are at winterfell

Isn't Moat Cailin the place Roose sent Ramsey to remove the Ironborn in the show, right before he legitimized him? So, doesn't that mean the Boltons are holding it?

Curious to see how they reconcile Sansa and the Crown. Sansa is Public Enemy 2, is she not? Charged with killing a king. She pops up the wife of a lordlng, isn't the King going to demand they turn her over? Weakened Lannisters or not, they will at least demand she be brought to Kings Landing for questioning. Are LF and the Boltons planning open defiance? That seems unlikely.

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Curious to see how they reconcile Sansa and the Crown. Sansa is Public Enemy 2, is she not? Charged with killing a king. She pops up the wife of a lordlng, isn't the King going to demand they turn her over? Weakened Lannisters or not, they will at least demand she be brought to Kings Landing for questioning. Are LF and the Boltons planning open defiance? That seems unlikely.

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I think open defiance and revolt is exactly what they have planned. In typical Littlefinger fashion though, his involvement won't be obvious, at least initially.

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Curious to see how they reconcile Sansa and the Crown. Sansa is Public Enemy 2, is she not? Charged with killing a king. She pops up the wife of a lordlng, isn't the King going to demand they turn her over? Weakened Lannisters or not, they will at least demand she be brought to Kings Landing for questioning. Are LF and the Boltons planning open defiance? That seems unlikely

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i think Littlefinger thinks the Lannister days are numbered...he is currently playing the long game and he can likely avoid them until then....they can't afford to go after him in the north right now...he has protection anyway with the Vale and now Sansa/Winterfell (which they don't know about).....

this is the problem with Cersei...she is so busy fighting her personal battles in KL and doing nothing about the political battles and alliances building elsewhere. without Tywin they are doomed.

meanwhile I think Littlefinger is taking care of some business in the north - payback to the Freys and Boltons while he does it right under their noses.

gonna be some interesting showdowns up there with the:
Freys
Boltons
Sansa/winterfell
Theon
Stannis
Nights Watch
free folk
mountain people

...only thing I'm sure of....Littlefinger will survive....and gain from it.

Can the High Septon legitimize *******s? If so, it would make the Howland Reed theory interesting since he presumably knows John's true lineage.

Plus there is still Stannis, he has to still be on the radar of KL. Seems like a sizable force that could wreck some havoc with the rest of the North and the Vale.

I don't remember exactly what LF said to Sansa to help convince her to follow through with the marriage, did it include anything on Stannis?

Sansa escapes, with Theons help, goes to Stannis to rally the North and retake Winterfell. What then does LF do? He will probably stay on the sideline.

Which tees up the showdowns you listed.

With many alliances/back-stabbings to go around. Should be fun

Yes, and anoite the true King, and marry people.

Only the King can legitimize them. In the end though I don't think it will be relevant in Joh's case because if he wanted to be Jon Stark he already could have been. The only other thing he may do is find out he is Jon Targaryen, but that will be an entirely new thing.

The Septon, if he is Reed, will likely just focus on destroying the Lannisters and Tyrells.

As for LF, one of the things that really doesn't make sense about this change with Sansa is it is so outside of his character. It's a very overt move and makes him an enemy of the Lannisters while gaining an alliance with the Boltons, who are weak and vulnerable. It also likely makes the Tyrells into an enemy as well because like Marg is still married to Tommen and without Tommen on the throne they are out of power (Stannis is next in line and then it gets really messy). In the books the logic is that Sansa will marry Harry the Heir and then go and fight the Bolton's for the North behind the Vale and the loyalist Northmen. This makes it so that the Northmen would be allied to the Bolton's through Sansa. So why would LF want to be caught between Stannis and the Lannisters/Tyrells? LF has been careful to avoid taking sides so why decide to jump in now with someone he admits to knowing so little about in Bolton?

It's just sloppy. They can fix it but it will require some reaches in terms of logic.

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Plus there is still Stannis, he has to still be on the radar of KL. Seems like a sizable force that could wreck some havoc with the rest of the North and the Vale.

I don't remember exactly what LF said to Sansa to help convince her to follow through with the marriage, did it include anything on Stannis?

Sansa escapes, with Theons help, goes to Stannis to rally the North and retake Winterfell. What then does LF do? He will probably stay on the sideline.

Which tees up the showdowns you listed.

With many alliances/back-stabbings to go around. Should be fun

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LF essentially said to Sansa that she should go through with it so she can go home and stop running and that someday she can get revenge. Of course how she is supposed to get revenge on the people who most betrayed her family by marrying them was just left hanging out there. Technically if Ramsay knocked her up and she had a son then she is of no further value to them, not really.

The only thing that makes sense is for Sansa to escape/get kidnapped before the wedding or before it is consummated. I don't even see how she could marry Ramsay and then kill him because she could be pregnant and I don't know how she could escape while being surrounded by Boltons after she just killed their Lord and/or his heir.

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Plus there is still Stannis, he has to still be on the radar of KL. Seems like a sizable force that could wreck some havoc with the rest of the North and the Vale.

I don't remember exactly what LF said to Sansa to help convince her to follow through with the marriage, did it include anything on Stannis?

Sansa escapes, with Theons help, goes to Stannis to rally the North and retake Winterfell. What then does LF do? He will probably stay on the sideline.

Which tees up the showdowns you listed.

With many alliances/back-stabbings to go around. Should be fun

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LF essentially said to Sansa that she should go through with it so she can go home and stop running and that someday she can get revenge. Of course how she is supposed to get revenge on the people who most betrayed her family by marrying them was just left hanging out there. Technically if Ramsay knocked her up and she had a son then she is of no further value to them, not really.

The only thing that makes sense is for Sansa to escape/get kidnapped before the wedding or before it is consummated. I don't even see how she could marry Ramsay and then kill him because she could be pregnant and I don't know how she could escape while being surrounded by Boltons after she just killed their Lord and/or his heir.

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Why would she be pregnant again?

And obviously, she'd have to kill them in a way that didn't implicate her.

She could whisper in Ramsay's ear to overthrow his dad.

Does tv show Littlefinger know what a sadistic pos Ramsey is? Seems like he would, but if he did I'm not sure he'd put Sansa at risk.

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• Dany covered up last week; Margaery this weekwhat's up with all the modesty amongst the main female character?
  

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I don't know about the actress who pays Margaery, but I do know the actress who plays Dany has refused to do anymore nude scenes.

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Natalie Dormer plays Margaery. She and the kid who plays Tommen (who is 17) did some interviews. There was apparently discretion taken due to her being 33 and he being 17. They were originally supposed to get it on in the season 4 scene (he was 16 at the time) where she sneaks into his room but she shot it down and she insisted on being mostly covered up for the consummation scene this season. The boy was apparently pretty intimidated by the whole thing as well.

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Plus there is still Stannis, he has to still be on the radar of KL. Seems like a sizable force that could wreck some havoc with the rest of the North and the Vale.

I don't remember exactly what LF said to Sansa to help convince her to follow through with the marriage, did it include anything on Stannis?

Sansa escapes, with Theons help, goes to Stannis to rally the North and retake Winterfell. What then does LF do? He will probably stay on the sideline.

Which tees up the showdowns you listed.

With many alliances/back-stabbings to go around. Should be fun

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LF essentially said to Sansa that she should go through with it so she can go home and stop running and that someday she can get revenge. Of course how she is supposed to get revenge on the people who most betrayed her family by marrying them was just left hanging out there. Technically if Ramsay knocked her up and she had a son then she is of no further value to them, not really.

The only thing that makes sense is for Sansa to escape/get kidnapped before the wedding or before it is consummated. I don't even see how she could marry Ramsay and then kill him because she could be pregnant and I don't know how she could escape while being surrounded by Boltons after she just killed their Lord and/or his heir.

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Why would she be pregnant again?

And obviously, she'd have to kill them in a way that didn't implicate her

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The point was if Ramsay actually marries Sansa and they consummate the marriage then there is a possibility Sansa would be pregnant from that point onward and it alters the storyline, of course with the number of changes they are making they can just gloss over that as well.

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Does tv show Littlefinger know what a sadistic pos Ramsey is? Seems like he would, but if he did I'm not sure he'd put Sansa at risk.

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LF told Roose that he didn't know anything about Ramsay. If you take that at face value, then LF doesn't know about Ramsay's tendencies. Also, Sansa isn't useful to LF if she's "damaged goods".

I think LF was bs'ing Roose & Ramsay about not knowing anything about Ramsay. LF is an information broker second only to Varys, no way he wouldn't know what that kid is like, he doesn't exactly hide his behavior.

I'm still on team "Sansa rallies the North before marrying Ramsay".

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I think LF was bs'ing Roose & Ramsay about not knowing anything about Ramsay. LF is an information broker second only to Varys, no way he wouldn't know what that kid is like, he doesn't exactly hide his behavior.

I'm still on team "Sansa rallies the North before marrying Ramsay".

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Yeah, with the history of weddings in this show/books, I wouldn't bet on the Sansa/Ramsay nuptials going smoothly...

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I think LF was bs'ing Roose & Ramsay about not knowing anything about Ramsay. LF is an information broker second only to Varys, no way he wouldn't know what that kid is like, he doesn't exactly hide his behavior.

I'm still on team "Sansa rallies the North before marrying Ramsay".

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Yeah, with the history of weddings in this show/books, I wouldn't bet on the Sansa/Ramsay nuptials going smoothly...

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Easier to say which ones DID go smoothly. Only Margery/Tommen, Robb/Talisa, right?

Any thoughts on the consummation of the Tommen/Margery marriage in the show and how that might impact the books?

I know in seasons past we have used the show to prove/disprove theories in the books based on decisions in the show i.e. Robb's wife and whether or not he has an heir

I don't think that ever would have come into play in the books. Unless they go a direction about proving her maidenhead by inspection of the sheets on the night of the wedding.

The show is going to have to find a different rift than each queen's sex affairs. Cersei doesn't look like she's hooking up with any knights anytime soon. Unless Lancel becomes her accuser. As stated, little late to accuse Margery of being a ho.