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I don't want to sound like "that guy," but I really don't care about Azhor Azai or most of the other prophecies in the series. I don't know. To me there's something more interesting about the Game itself, the battle royale where we'll see who is left standing at the end. The idea that some of these things are preordained, like "oh he can't win because it was foretold that he'd be betrayed" or something... it just kind of spoils things, and makes it a bit cheesier in a way.

That said... I suppose it's not much different than knowing that there's an Author behind it all, and he wouldn't have written Tyrion, Jon and Daenerys so prominently into all 5 books if they weren't going to amount to something in the end. So in a way, GRRM's style and storytelling in general is the biggest prophecy.

But I hate the idea of some old witch giving away how a story is going to end, even if vaguely. I remember in (sigh) the second Mummy movie where it was suddenly decided that the main character was prophesied to kill the Scorpion King or some such. He suddenly had a cryptic tattoo and stuff in the sequel. Why can't the heroes just be heroes without it being foretold in centuries past

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It took me a while to warm to the prophecies but now I love them. For instance I hated Patchface and the House of the Undying the first time I read the books. Then it occurred to me that those prophecies actually just show what an amazing writer Martin is. They do tel the future but they are done in such a way that it is extremely difficult to understand and they conflict. Thus they make the stories that much more interesting because you are essentially looking at a puzzle and trying to figure it out, yet you won't really know until it happens. It takes incredible writing talent to write those prophecies without actually giving away the answer. The reason you hated the Mummy was because it made the answer obvious, with Martin you still don't really know and that is what makes it even more interesting.

At least both characters and GRRM himself have mentioned that prophecy is tricky in this particular world. Some do seem to come true, others don't, and others come true in a way that wasn't predicted. Some still leave the possibility open of failure too.

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he is the prince that was promised and that if he fails the world fails with him

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There's no way he's AA. I go back to Aemon talking about his sword burning but there being no heat.

Another hint that he may sacrifice Shireen, if he truly believes himself to be AA, he'll do it. AA killed his own wife, right?

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"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him"

Could Longclaw be or become Lightbringer?

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I wonder if they will burn Jon with Longclaw.

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There's no way he's AA. I go back to Aemon talking about his sword burning but there being no heat.

Another hint that he may sacrifice Shireen, if he truly believes himself to be AA, he'll do it. AA killed his own wife, right?

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"There will come a day after a long summer when the stars bleed and the cold breath of darkness falls heavy on the world. In this dread hour a warrior shall draw from the fire a burning sword. And that sword shall be Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and he who clasps it shall be Azor Ahai come again, and the darkness shall flee before him"

Could Longclaw be or become Lightbringer?

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I wonder if they will burn Jon with Longclaw.

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That was my thought. He pulls it burning from the pyre after he is resurrected. The actual blade wouldn't be damaged by the fire, but some might be reluctant to put Valyrian steel into a fire instead of snagging it once he is dead.

I don't necessarily mind the prophecies in ASOIAF, but when Melisandre keeps talking on and on about AA reborn I can't help but roll my eyes a little bit. Maybe it's just that she's kind of annoying.

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That was my thought. He pulls it burning from the pyre after he is resurrected. The actual blade wouldn't be damaged by the fire, but some might be reluctant to put Valyrian steel into a fire instead of snagging it once he is dead.

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The NW lets nothing go waste for certain, and Valyrian steel is a rarity the world over, so it's hard to believe anyone would simply let the finest sword on the Wall be sacrificed. Then again, it may be considered bad taste to loot the possessions of the Lord Commander you just murdered over what was basically a difference in opinion on foreign policy.

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That was my thought. He pulls it burning from the pyre after he is resurrected. The actual blade wouldn't be damaged by the fire, but some might be reluctant to put Valyrian steel into a fire instead of snagging it once he is dead.

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The NW lets nothing go waste for certain, and Valyrian steel is a rarity the world over, so it's hard to believe anyone would simply let the finest sword on the Wall be sacrificed. Then again, it may be considered bad taste to loot the possessions of the Lord Commander you just murdered over what was basically a difference in opinion on foreign policy.

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Maybe they would simply salvage it after the fire died and redo the pomel, grip, etc. I'm sure the blade would suffer no damage.

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That was my thought. He pulls it burning from the pyre after he is resurrected. The actual blade wouldn't be damaged by the fire, but some might be reluctant to put Valyrian steel into a fire instead of snagging it once he is dead.

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The NW lets nothing go waste for certain, and Valyrian steel is a rarity the world over, so it's hard to believe anyone would simply let the finest sword on the Wall be sacrificed. Then again, it may be considered bad taste to loot the possessions of the Lord Commander you just murdered over what was basically a difference in opinion on foreign policy.

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I have no doubt that you're correct; however, it does strike me as funny the notion that we may murder you, but it would be uncouth to take your sword.

Exactly

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I don't necessarily mind the prophecies in ASOIAF, but when Melisandre keeps talking on and on about AA reborn I can't help but roll my eyes a little bit. Maybe it's just that she's kind of annoying.

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she is so cocky....no question her "OH SH*T" moment is coming when she realizes she has been wrong all along.....well right but wrong guy/person.

GRRM has a very biblical quality to him in my opinon, besides the prophecies and epic nature of the stories....he very much has a ""Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled; and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted." kind of theme that is rampant.....

except Ned of course...that was just WRONG!!!!....but set up everything.....

those that exalted themselves:
Robert - cocky kind of a d*ck, dead
Joffrey - cocky sadistic nut job, dead
Tywin - cocky and controlling and manipulative, dead
Renly - had no claim whatsoever and was just power hungry and "fancied" himself, dead
Viserys - cocky and power hungry and entitled, dead
Lysa - bat S crazy and malicious, dead

some "good" people of course died at the hands of sadistic nut jobs or other bad people....
Ned
Robb - you could say he was a bit power hungry too, but mostly a good guy
Catelyn
Ser Barristan
Drogo - well he was a bit power hungry too, but we liked him
Oberyn - likable of course, but cocky which cost him in the end, dead

of course many good characters also have died, but most were not the lead types....you gotta have fodder for the story:
guys at the wall
friends of Arya
jojen
etc.

and there are still bad people alive...i assume they have it coming
Cersei
Ramsay
Freys
Boltons
etc.

EDIT here
"smaller" characters who are good but not primary characters we would ever assume end up in power/exalted. these are also fate unknown in the show (and book really):
Brienne
Davos

meanwhile those that humble themselves or come from little or nothing....i assume will be exalted:

Daenerys - was supposed to not be the heir, left with nothing after Drogo died, you could say she has some power hungry motives now i guess but always painted as trying to be just (freeing slaves, doesn't like the killing but sometimes has to)

Jon - presumed a *******, takes the watch on the wall voluntarily, sacrifices a lot all along, always tried to chooe the right path, honor above all else, comes from respected family but he himself is not initially

Tyrion - outcast of his own family, always overcomes long odds in dicey situations, uses his brain to make up for what he lacks, a survivor for sure


I've thought this was the primary story arc since I read book 1 and i've never wavered....and amazingly those three are still alive throughout 5 books (even if Jon is possibly dead, but GRRM rarely leaves people in a questionable state - catelyn and the hound were/are exceptions of course)

I'd add Brienne to the humble list. Unless do we know for sure LSH killed her at the end?

Add Davos as well

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I'd add Brienne to the humble list. Unless do we know for sure LSH killed her at the end?

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i was talking more show based...this is the show thread....although yeah i did mention jon's impending situation which i assume does happen (signs) ...but given the tangent of Brienne's story at thsi point i don't think we can presume that ever happens in the show.

she is certainly a humble person though...fate unknown

ditto for Davos too

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The idea that some of these things are preordained, like "oh he can't win because it was foretold that he'd be betrayed" or something... it just kind of spoils things, and makes it a bit cheesier in a way.

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I think it's more complex than that, b/c as others noted they are all pretty vague and open to misinterpretation by the characters. The idea that Mel can be right about R'hllor and AA is pretty sketchy, for instance. Look at the difference b/w how she wields the power vs Thoros. Mel uses R'hllor to kill, Thoros uses it to grant life.

So, even with all the prophecy involved in the story, it's still a really messy story with a bunch of uncertainty for everyone involved. If Jon ends up being reborn as AA and defeats the White Walkers, I don't think the story is lessened b/c it was prophesized.

This is the book reader thread not the show thread.

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This is the book reader thread not the show thread.

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ummmm "Season 5 Thread"

didn't realize there was a book called Season 5.

Correct season 5 with the book/spoilers, not the show thread as you have listed there is no book only thread but there is a Tv show only thread.

As far as brienne goes pretty sure she is still alive and will be on a mission for LSH.

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Correct season 5 with the book/spoilers, not the show thread as you have listed there is no book only thread but there is a Tv show only thread.

As far as brienne goes pretty sure she is still alive and will be on a mission for LSH.

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not sure i what you think we are arguning about?

where did i list this as a show thread?.....as if it were a non spoiler thread...i didn't mean or imply that if thats what you are saying.

it's a show thread...yes with book spoilers, ok...most stories are beyond that anyway it's kinda irrelevant now....

the vast majority of my post was talking about dead characters (in the show and book) and other less central dead characters and the possible 3 main characters who may be exalted in the end (of the show and the book).....

arguing whether Brienne is alive or dead (and even you say "pretty sure")...is a moot point to this dicussion whether you are talking book or show...she isn't a major character and will never be the one (or one of the ones) exalted or eventually triumphant. she may live, or she may die, she may play a part in the finale . anyway i added her cuz she is a good character, surely, but not a major player.

anyway....whatever....you'll have to let me know what we are arguing about cuz i have no idea.

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i was talking more show based...this is the show thread....although yeah i did mention jon's impending situation which i assume does happen (signs) ...but given the tangent of Brienne's story at thsi point i don't think we can presume that ever happens in the show.

she is certainly a humble person though...fate unknown

ditto for Davos too

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This is why you're arguing

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i was talking more show based...this is the show thread....although yeah i did mention jon's impending situation which i assume does happen (signs) ...but given the tangent of Brienne's story at thsi point i don't think we can presume that ever happens in the show.

she is certainly a humble person though...fate unknown

ditto for Davos too

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This is why you're arguing

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yes...and that's true...this is the show thread....i was talking about current state of the characters mentioned in relation to the show....although i mentioned Jon's impending fate (which is book related).....

i thought he was bringing up Brienne as a possibly dead character and a good person - in reference to her fate in the books - although i didn't have a problem mentioning her or things from the book...just saying why i didn't list her (she isn't dead or even presumed dead in the show and unlike Jon right now i don;t think she is at huge risk of being killed).....

i know it's the book spoilers for the SHOW thread...meaning book info is ok...i just didn't include book info in this case....

so i still don't know what the argument is.

I know what you were trying to say, but those were the words that started the "argument" (which I'm not involved in)

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I know what you were trying to say, but those were the words that started the "argument" (which I'm not involved in)

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sure ok...appreciate it....i just don't get how someone takes a simple statement that it is the show thread...and extrapolates that to an anti book or don't mention the books stance...

wasn't my intention. just stating why i named the people i did....

anyway, as most everyone is thinking....let's just move on shall we.

This is a fair game thread where the book and show are mixed, nothing is out of bounds. It is noteworthy that GRRM hasn't killed Barristan or Jojen in the books yet, in fact Barristan has one of the released WoW chapters. They are 2 different stories now, very much connected and supposed to have essentially the same end, but still 2 different stories.

Also, Book 5 ends with Briene alive and meeting up with Jaime to go off and meet someone, presumably LSH. She appears safe for the moment, though I do think she eventually dies or joins someones KG in the end.

Yay, the weekly books vs show argument

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It is noteworthy that GRRM hasn't killed Barristan or Jojen in the books yet, in fact Barristan has one of the released WoW chapters. They are 2 different stories now, very much connected and supposed to have essentially the same end, but still 2 different stories.

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Don't rush me! I'm rewriting as fast as I can! So many characters to kill, so little time.

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That was my thought. He pulls it burning from the pyre after he is resurrected. The actual blade wouldn't be damaged by the fire, but some might be reluctant to put Valyrian steel into a fire instead of snagging it once he is dead.

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The NW lets nothing go waste for certain, and Valyrian steel is a rarity the world over, so it's hard to believe anyone would simply let the finest sword on the Wall be sacrificed. Then again, it may be considered bad taste to loot the possessions of the Lord Commander you just murdered over what was basically a difference in opinion on foreign policy.

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I have no doubt that you're correct; however, it does strike me as funny the notion that we may murder you, but it would be uncouth to take your sword.

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Maybe thats why the showrunners arent having Sam go to Oldetown. He will make sure Jon gets pyred with Longclaw.

I think with the way they've been setting everything up, Sam and Gillie will flee the wall when Jon gets killed.

If they flee without permission though then he will be an oathbreaker marked for death. I don't see how he escapes the North in that case. It would make a lot more sense for Jon to get back to Castle Black, see Aemon is dead, and send Sam to the Citadel. Then Jon gets whacked shortly thereafter.

If Sam doesn't take a boat to the Citadel, it will be winter, spring, summer, and another winter before his fat ass walks there.

Episode 10 (Mothers Mercy) description is: Stannis marches. Dany is surrounded by strangers. Cersei see eks forgiveness. Jon is challenged.

So obviously WoS for Queen Mother. Jon likely gets FtW'd but I think not resurrected (I just don't think they'll go that far past the books). War at Winterfell though?! The letter from Ramsey referred to it, but I think that part of his letter was BS in the book.

Also think Jon sends Sam and Gilly to Oldtown (see casting of Ser Randall for next season) prior to FtW. Probably episode 9 even.