**Official Game of Thrones: Season 5 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)**

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Zombie Jon Snow
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1:40p, 6/9/15
AG

Just some board/thread info I decided to look up....

I was of the opinion that this season was engendering more discussion amongst us...having gone past the books more and the epic level of some stuff (past 2 eps especially)....and debate about the direction going forward....

and to some degree I guess it has, but not as mch as I thought. It grew significantly from season 1 to 2 and to 3...but has been pretty steady since then.

These are the number of posts on the Spoiler/Book reader thread by season:

1 - 700
2 - 1100
3 - 2000
4 - 2150
5 - 2089 and counting of course thats through 9 episodes so it will certainly pass the others, just not as much as I thought it was...probabaly settle around 2400 maybe a bit more (averaging 230ish per episode although the last may have more).

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rhutton125
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2:20p, 6/9/15
AG
Perhaps Stannis's cold, merciless sense of justice and duty reasoned that sacrificing one to save the many was the right thing to do. Can't retreat, can't advance. Kill the girl and the army lives.

Or perhaps it's just the macro level that matters - "The Iron Throne is mine by right," all the details will sort themselves out as long as they serve that end.

/shrug
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OnlyForNow
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2:56p, 6/9/15
AG
Well if the recap posted on the previous page is any indication of the book's timeline future, I could see that very quickly in the next book that Sylene and Mel burn Shireen probably at the same time the men are burning Jon(note I am changing my previous statement of funeral prye which shows respect to just burning his body to keep him from changing into a wight), this keeps the NW occupied and the ladies can do their sacrifice. Then Jon walks out of the fire. And bam opening chapter of book 6.
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MSCAg
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3:51p, 6/9/15
AG
I'm gonna go on a limb and say Ollie tries to save Jon when he's attacked.
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LawAg05
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In reply to MW03 • 3:55p, 6/9/15
AG
I think you make a lot of good points and agree with everything you said about Stannis. However, I think a distinction needs to be drawn between show Stannis and book Stannis. Jenn96's summary on the last page was spot on:
quote:
The problem is that there's no way for STANNIS to sacrifice her in the books, they're hundreds of miles apart. But Melisandre and Selyse are at the Wall with Shireen. Maybe they feel that this decision was necessary to show who Stannis really is, but I think it might be more interesting to set Stannis against his wife, a religious fanatic, or Melisandre, desperate to do anything to appease her god, particularly if the sacrifice brings the promised results. Stannis is obsessed with justice. There is not justice in this.
Many readers, myself included, didn't believe that Stannis would ever willingly sacrifice Shireen. This is a guy who ate boot leather and rats while on the brink of starvation rather than surrender while under siege at Storm's End. Yet in the show he burns his daughter because its cold and they are low on food? Not to mention he claims to be King then burns his only child. The children of royalty are incredibly valuable for more than just king's blood. Wouldn't it have made more sense to marry her to another house for an alliance? When Shireen first contracted greyscale at Dragonstone, why did he go to such lengths to try and save her when keeping her alive risked further contamination of his "kingdom"?

Bottom line, it just doesn't make sense for Stannis to order Shireen burned. But it makes a lot more sense for Mal/Selyse to burn her at the wall while Stannis is away, which is what will likely happen in the books.
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redline248
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4:32p, 6/9/15
AG
No way patch face let's her be burned.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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4:36p, 6/9/15
AG
Patchface vs. Butterbumps, trial by combat, who wins?
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W.C. Griffin '09
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In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 4:49p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Patchface vs. Butterbumps, trial by combat, who wins?


I know I know oh oh oh
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The Dog Lord
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In reply to AggieHank86 • 4:50p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
quote:
I think that one of Dany's visions in the house of the undying is of Rhaegar saying "and his is the song of ice and fire" in reference to his son (believed to be Aegon though because Ellia is also in the vision I believe). Is that the only reference to "a song of ice and fire" in the books that anyone can remember?
I just re-read the passage from the House of the Undying, and there is no description of the woman in the bed or of the infant. Likewise, there is no description of the surroundings, which would allow us to determine whether the vignette took place at the Red Keep or at the Tower of Joy.

The woman in the vision could have been Elia Martell in the Red Keep, and the infant could have been his son with her. The use of the name Aegon in this passage seems to be intended to make us THINK that, but the sentence "Aegon is a good name for a king" is never tied directly to THIS infant.

The woman in the vision could ALSO have been Lyanna Stark at the Tower of Joy, and the infant could have been the child later known as Jon Snow. I have never been able to figure the timeline as to whether Rhaegar was present at the Tower of Joy with Lyanna (including when she gave birth) and left to fight in the war, leaving her there.

Lastly, it is possible that the woman/infant are Lyanna/Jon, but that Rhaegar is actually talking about his other son (Aegon) back in Kings Landing.
I believe that Rhaegar was present at the ToJ at one point, but it isn't clear whether he was there during the birth. One of the Kingsguard not already there (I believe Gerold Hightower) was sent to get him and stayed in his place (I'm assuming at his command). Rhaegar had been ordered by his father to meet Robert with the royal army. I can't remember where I got this from though. I'll try to found the source and post about it.

I guess another explanation about the vision could be that Rhaegar assumed Aegon would be the PtwP, but really it turns out to be his other son (Jon).
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jenn96
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6:09p, 6/9/15
AG
Obviously we're guessing at exactly what happened here, but Rhaeger died at the Trident well before Ned found Lyanna in her "bed of blood" - enough time passed after the Trident for Ned and Robert to fight there and kill Rhaeger, go to Kings Landing after the sack, find out about Elia & the kids, and then for a disgusted Ned to travel to Dorne to the TOJ. Now, the bed of blood may not have been a birthing bed but it's a fair assumption. Even if she didn't die of childbirth/childbirth complications, I just don't see any way Rhaegar could have been present for the birth and seen his son.
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redline248
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6:33p, 6/9/15
AG
The vision doesn't have to be a perfect match with reality, imo. Similar to Jojen seeing the sea drown Winterfell. Although, this particular vision in house of the undying is less metaphorical.
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jenn96
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6:44p, 6/9/15
AG
Going back to Stannis, if it turns out that in the books he wasn't the one to choose to sacrifice Shireen and it was Mel or Selise, then the show writers need to seriously figure out what they're doing. Because in 5 minutes they destroyed him as a sympathetic character. I am one of the many readers who found myself silently, almost grudgingly rooting for Stannis as I re-read the books over the years. Because despite his rigidity and his willingness to follow Mel in order to achieve his goals, he was honorable and just even while rigid and unyielding about his rights. His willingness to kill the other Kings, including his brother, by witchcraft was a means to an end to gain his rightful throne, and they were usurpers. He is, in fairness, the only legitimate heir to the throne both by conquest (as Robert's rightful heir) and by blood (he and his brothers had Targaryan blood on both sides, and his grandmother was the daughter of King Aegon V). He took care of his family, and his men, and had kept the lifelong loyalty of Davos Seaworth, who is probably the most morally centered character in the entire ASOIAFverse. He was the only lord in Westeros to come to the aid of the Night's watch when they needed it. He's the guy who said this: "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne." And he had the best sense of dry humor in the books.

And now, most show viewers are hard-pressed to decide who is worse, Stannis or Ramsey.

I have to think that Stannis in the books was going to sacrifice Shireen to bring forth Lightbringer, and the show writers did this instead. Because if they were the ones who chose to make him into someone who would watch his little girl - his only heir - burn to death in order to win the throne, then they truly don't understand why we readers love this story so much.

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6:56p, 6/9/15
jenn96
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7:15p, 6/9/15
AG
Definitely. He's not a genuinely good guy the way Davos is, or Ned was. But I would have been (will be?) just as shocked if BookStannis burnt Shireen as an offering to the Red God. At least if he sacrifices her to bring Lightbringer, to make her his NissaNissa, it's because she is the most precious thing in the world to him and he is making the ultimate sacrifice. Not that I'd like it, but it is something I can see happening a bit more. But to burn her just because she has King's blood? She's his heir! I just don't think it fits his character.

Again, who knows what will happen in the books. But Stannis is now a Bad Guy on the show, and I'm sorry because I was hoping he'd be more nuanced through the rest of the series.
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redline248
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In reply to jenn96 • 7:17p, 6/9/15
AG
He already thinks he has Lightbringer
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In reply to jenn96 • 7:19p, 6/9/15
LawAg05
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7:28p, 6/9/15
AG
He does think he already has Lightbringer, but I think Jenn96 was just posing a situation in which the sacrifice would actually make sense i.e. NissaNissa. Here, he just burns Shireen for more favorable weather.

If Shireen wasn't precious to him, he would have sent her away when she got Greyscale. He wouldn't have kept her around for as long as he did either. She lives her life in seclusion and is somewhat of an albatross because of her condition. There isn't a reason for Stannis to put up with this is he doesn't care for her. If you still doubt it, just ask yourself what Walder Frey would do if one of his kids got grayscale? I doubt they would stick around very long.
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jenn96
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7:44p, 6/9/15
AG
That's a good point, although I would argue that if any human being is precious to him it would be her - if he had to choose someone to sacrifice to actually "become" Ahor Azai, she would be the one. But that's actually all to the point I was making (badly, it turns out) - I'm very curious to see what reason Stannis has in the books for killing his daughter. Because what has been building up in the books, as I read them at any rate, is that Mel is going to kill Shireen. That when she realizes that Mances's son isn't at the wall and there is no one else with the Kings blood she needs, she sacrifices Shireen (probably with Selysye's help although who knows). And that sacrifice will have some role to play in the goings-on at the wall, be it Jon's resurrection, the attack of the Others, The Night's Watch mutiny, the Wall coming down, etc etc etc.

And that is really the thought I'm trying to get out here, is wondering if the decision to make Stannis the one who kills her was a show decision or if that came from GRRM.

ETA - yes, LawAg, thanks! That is what I was trying to say.
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In reply to LawAg05 • 7:56p, 6/9/15
Old School Rucking
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9:05p, 6/9/15
AG
Ned was the most dishonorable character in the show - if only for his hypocrisy. He had honor when it didn't cost him anything. He was happy to lop of someone else's head or spill someone else's dirty secret. He wasn't willing to tell King Robert a hard truth or stick up for what he believed when his children's lives were on the line.

Rob was dishonorable for breaking his vow to Walder Frey. He got exactly what he deserved and I quite enjoyed it. That sly smile on Roose's face when the Catelyn noticed his chain mail was priceless. You can say Walder Frey was dishonorable for how he killed Rob and his arrogant **** of a mother, but it was no less cowardly than Rob refusing to fight Jamie Lannister in single combat. Each knew they wouldn't win playing the game that way, and each chose another path instead of losing.

Oberyn was dishonorable for poisoning his weapon. Though it's fitting that he used a woman's weapon since he seemed to enjoy playing the role of a woman. He certainly got what he deserved. His rat-faced wife's scream when his head exploded was one of my favorite moments on the show. (Toss up with the Red Wedding)

Jon Snow was dishonorable for shooting Mance. Mance was not his prisoner and that was not his right. I wouldn't mind seeing Jon get the Theon treatment if for no other reason than I can't take his character seriously. Not sure how such a well cast show could blow it that bad on a major character. I don't think we'll get that storybook Reek II ending for Jon, but I'm not sure I can keep watching if he lives much longer.
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to Old School Rucking • 9:13p, 6/9/15
I agree with all of yours but jon...that is kind of nit picky
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redline248
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In reply to Old School Rucking • 9:14p, 6/9/15
AG
A- troll. Bravo.
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15
Zombie Jon Snow
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In reply to Old School Rucking • 9:23p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Ned was the most dishonorable character in the show - if only for his hypocrisy. He had honor when it didn't cost him anything. He was happy to lop of someone else's head or spill someone else's dirty secret. He wasn't willing to tell King Robert a hard truth or stick up for what he believed when his children's lives were on the line.

Rob was dishonorable for breaking his vow to Walder Frey. He got exactly what he deserved and I quite enjoyed it. That sly smile on Roose's face when the Catelyn noticed his chain mail was priceless. You can say Walder Frey was dishonorable for how he killed Rob and his arrogant **** of a mother, but it was no less cowardly than Rob refusing to fight Jamie Lannister in single combat. Each knew they wouldn't win playing the game that way, and each chose another path instead of losing.

Oberyn was dishonorable for poisoning his weapon. Though it's fitting that he used a woman's weapon since he seemed to enjoy playing the role of a woman. He certainly got what he deserved. His rat-faced wife's scream when his head exploded was one of my favorite moments on the show. (Toss up with the Red Wedding)

Jon Snow was dishonorable for shooting Mance. Mance was not his prisoner and that was not his right. I wouldn't mind seeing Jon get the Theon treatment if for no other reason than I can't take his character seriously. Not sure how such a well cast show could blow it that bad on a major character. I don't think we'll get that storybook Reek II ending for Jon, but I'm not sure I can keep watching if he lives much longer.
if those are your criteria name ONE honorable character? especially male.

maybe Barristan Selmy (dead)
maybe Maester Emon (dead)

maybe Doran but something tells me he is up to something longterm - and in the books he was trying to overthrow Robert and destroy the Lannisters

maybe Davos Seaworth - but he is convicted smuggler

Brienne is probably the most honorable character period.


Tyrion - killed his dad for revenge only, he could have escaped
LF - dirty as hell, threw lyanna out the moon door because she was annoying and in his way
Varys -same, arranged murder of Joffrey
Stannis - killed his daughter for the hope of advancing an army through snow
Robert - no
Viserys - no
Jamie - no
Theon - no
Tywin - no, what he did to Tyrion and his young love
Ramsay - NO
Roose - no
long list.....NO NO NO
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Saxsoon
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In reply to Zombie Jon Snow • 9:40p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
quote:
Ned was the most dishonorable character in the show - if only for his hypocrisy. He had honor when it didn't cost him anything. He was happy to lop of someone else's head or spill someone else's dirty secret. He wasn't willing to tell King Robert a hard truth or stick up for what he believed when his children's lives were on the line.

Rob was dishonorable for breaking his vow to Walder Frey. He got exactly what he deserved and I quite enjoyed it. That sly smile on Roose's face when the Catelyn noticed his chain mail was priceless. You can say Walder Frey was dishonorable for how he killed Rob and his arrogant **** of a mother, but it was no less cowardly than Rob refusing to fight Jamie Lannister in single combat. Each knew they wouldn't win playing the game that way, and each chose another path instead of losing.

Oberyn was dishonorable for poisoning his weapon. Though it's fitting that he used a woman's weapon since he seemed to enjoy playing the role of a woman. He certainly got what he deserved. His rat-faced wife's scream when his head exploded was one of my favorite moments on the show. (Toss up with the Red Wedding)

Jon Snow was dishonorable for shooting Mance. Mance was not his prisoner and that was not his right. I wouldn't mind seeing Jon get the Theon treatment if for no other reason than I can't take his character seriously. Not sure how such a well cast show could blow it that bad on a major character. I don't think we'll get that storybook Reek II ending for Jon, but I'm not sure I can keep watching if he lives much longer.
if those are your criteria name ONE honorable character? especially male.

maybe Barristan Selmy (dead)
maybe Maester Emon (dead)

maybe Doran but something tells me he is up to something longterm - and in the books he was trying to overthrow Robert and destroy the Lannisters

maybe Davos Seaworth - but he is convicted smuggler

Brienne is probably the most honorable character period.


Tyrion - killed his dad for revenge only, he could have escaped
LF - dirty as hell, threw lyanna out the moon door because she was annoying and in his way
Varys -same, arranged murder of Joffrey
Stannis - killed his daughter for the hope of advancing an army through snow
Robert - no
Viserys - no
Jamie - no
Theon - no
Tywin - no, what he did to Tyrion and his young love
Ramsay - NO
Roose - no
long list.....NO NO NO

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5
Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to Old School Rucking • 9:42p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
Ned was the most dishonorable character in the show - if only for his hypocrisy. He had honor when it didn't cost him anything. He was happy to lop of someone else's head or spill someone else's dirty secret. He wasn't willing to tell King Robert a hard truth or stick up for what he believed when his children's lives were on the line.

Rob was dishonorable for breaking his vow to Walder Frey. He got exactly what he deserved and I quite enjoyed it. That sly smile on Roose's face when the Catelyn noticed his chain mail was priceless. You can say Walder Frey was dishonorable for how he killed Rob and his arrogant **** of a mother, but it was no less cowardly than Rob refusing to fight Jamie Lannister in single combat. Each knew they wouldn't win playing the game that way, and each chose another path instead of losing.

Oberyn was dishonorable for poisoning his weapon. Though it's fitting that he used a woman's weapon since he seemed to enjoy playing the role of a woman. He certainly got what he deserved. His rat-faced wife's scream when his head exploded was one of my favorite moments on the show. (Toss up with the Red Wedding)

Jon Snow was dishonorable for shooting Mance. Mance was not his prisoner and that was not his right. I wouldn't mind seeing Jon get the Theon treatment if for no other reason than I can't take his character seriously. Not sure how such a well cast show could blow it that bad on a major character. I don't think we'll get that storybook Reek II ending for Jon, but I'm not sure I can keep watching if he lives much longer.


I didn't realize Ramsey has Internet.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to Old School Rucking • 10:20p, 6/9/15
AG
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Old School Rucking
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10:28p, 6/9/15
AG
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redline248
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 10:30p, 6/9/15
AG
Brian, why do you spend so much time on this thread...I thought you didn't read the books?

Not hating, just curious.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to redline248 • 10:37p, 6/9/15
AG
Why do you spend so much time in the tv only thread?

The answer is I don't, I hardly open this thread.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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10:41p, 6/9/15
AG
I've gotten a bit braver about opening this thread in the past few weeks the more and more the show has deviated from the books. The only storylines that can even be spoiled anymore are Arya's and Jon Snow's (that I care about at least), and luckily I've avoided being spoiled on those so far.
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Saxsoon
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10:46p, 6/9/15
AG
Jon Snow




is





fabulous
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redline248
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 10:50p, 6/9/15
AG
quote:
The only storylines that can even be spoiled anymore are Arya's and Jon Snow's (that I care about at least), and luckily I've avoided being spoiled on those so far.
You're skating on thin, thin ice, there.

As to me on the other thread, I like reading the tv viewer's perspective, especially on things that aren't from the books. I've tried to avoid most conversation except for strictly tv stuff here and there. Think of it as wanting to know what it's like for the first time star wars viewer that doesn't know Anakin's story and just watched the scene on Cloud City.

Let me know if I'm going over the line in that thread and I'll stop posting
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Duncan Idaho
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In reply to redline248 • 10:55p, 6/9/15
Oh snap! I am on the wrong thread.

But I thought everyone in the red wedding deserved killin'
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Agustus Caesar
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11:07p, 6/9/15
AG
You mean you don't know that Jon snow "dies" and comes out as Caitlyn Snow to the shock and horror of his nights watch brothers?
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marble rye
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In reply to redline248 • 12:16a, 6/10/15
AG
quote:
Brian, why do you spend so much time on this thread...I thought you didn't read the books?

Not hating, just curious.


He and several posters on that thread are huge crybabies and he is spoiler police...yet he is reading this one? -_-
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