The fact that there are no other POV characters at or near the wall is probably the best argument for why we will be hearing from John again. Martin has said he won't be introducing any new POV's.

Then again my theory is that we may never see another book and will have to wait with all of the illiterate masses to find out what happens to John Snow.

^ Stannis (if he returns) & Melisandre...Davos could always return as well.

[This message has been edited by The Dog Lord (edited 4/8/2014 9:12a).]

pretty sure he released a stannis chapter on the website because stannis had possession of the artist formerly known as theon.

Melisandre is at the Wall currently and is POV. Bran is North of the Wall and POV.

That said, I can't imagine that was the end for Jon, just too many loose ends and too much that wouldn't add up.

I don't think Jon ever sits the Iron Throne though for many reasons. First off, he will either come back undead or warged in all likelihood and either would make it hard for him to be King. Second, the only person who could possibly verify his parentage are Howland Reed and he is an outcast amongst the people of Westeros so who would care or believe him? Third, Jon has no army and in order to win the Iron Throne he needs one. I just don't see who fights for him outside of maybe the wildlings but they aren't taking over Kings Landing. Finally, I just don't think that is what Jon wants. Nothing we have seen from him indicates he would want to rule as King down South. He's also an idiot and wouldn't be a very good King.

That said, I think Jon has an important part to play but think he also ends up dying before all is said and done. I also think he ends up marrying Dany because of the HOTU prophecy about a "blue flower in the Wall".

Who knows. Personally I am kind of worn out by Dany and Jon from Book 5, they just kept making one stupid decision after another. Any way you slice it though some big things have to shift in order to get to a resolution, just too many plots going different ways.

I would actually like for the Seven Kingdoms to go back to being independent, I think that is the only sustainable solution really. It makes no sense for Dorne, The North, The Vale, and the Iron Islands especially to be a part of the same Kingdom.

This interesting post from the non-spoilers thread:

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I re-watched a handful of Season 3 episodes before the premier and noticed that when Theon was being tortured, he admitted to Bolton's bastage that he didn't actually kill Rickon and Bran.

I'm wondering if this is going to play a significant role later on and if Bolton will begin trying to hunt them down

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This is a significant change from the books and I also wonder how it might play out in the show. Maybe crazy ass Ramsay doesn't even care about them, since one can't walk and the other is 6.

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The way I read Jon's death was that he warged last minute like whats his face with the eagle. Wasnt there a chapter opening that book that went into detail about that? Why else have that chapter because the players involved aren't relevant.

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Ugh I hope that's not the case as it will be a direct rip-off of Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy.

I think GRRM is trolling. It took so long for him to get this far people we're able to dissect every plot twist. He got so mad at the R+L=J theories he just killed him off instead. A big fat middle finger to the internet community.

I've heard, not sure if true, that when the HBO people came to Martin about doing a show he asked them "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" He agreed to let them do the show b/c they knew the correct answer.

Maybe some of y'all know how true (or not) that is. If it is true, I don't think he'd change his plans just b/c people figured it out.

I think Jon lives and in no small part to Melisandre saving him. Yeah, he got stabbed a bunch, but the wildlings more or less respect and probably save him quickly after he is attacked.


I think what happens is the Freefolk and the Watch go at it and the Freefolk win, only to have to now be in charge of the Wall.

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I would actually like for the Seven Kingdoms to go back to being independent, I think that is the only sustainable solution really. It makes no sense for Dorne, The North, The Vale, and the Iron Islands especially to be a part of the same Kingdom.

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I think this is what happens.

I think somewhere Sansa will get her wolf-balls back and ends up the Queen in the North. Danny will invade Westeros but probably ends up in some epic battle with the Others.

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I've heard, not sure if true, that when the HBO people came to Martin about doing a show he asked them "Who is Jon Snow's mother?" He agreed to let them do the show b/c they knew the correct answer.

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I've never heard that...but I feel pretty confident that Martin didn't make the decision on whether or not to license his life's opus(and unleash a veritable money-making operation) based on whether the HBO people were up to date on their fanfic.

In order for the Boltons to have the North they need Tyrions marriage to be unconsumated, and all boys to be dead, then Ramsey marry sansa

http://www.hypable.com/2014/03/14/game-of-thrones-a-long-short-story-benioff-weiss/

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Benioff and Weiss had to pass a tricky test before series author George RR Martin agreed to the show. “[Martin] said, ‘Who do you think is Jon Snow’s real mother?’” Benioff relates. “We threw out our guess… and then slowly he smiled, and then we were in.”

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In order for the Boltons to legally have the North they need Tyrions marriage to be unconsumated, and all boys to be dead, then Ramsey marry sansa

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FIFY. Much like with King's Landing, if they have the power to hold Winterfell they will hold it, regardless of the 'rules.' Besides, didn't Tywin name Bolton warden of the North?

From the Grantland article on the Season 4 Premiere:

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The most notable of these betrothals, for our purposes, are the Lannisters sending Joffrey’s younger sister, Myrcella (who you probably don’t remember), to Dorne for nuptials to a Martell to be named later, and, of course, the fateful marriage of Elia Martell and Rhaegar Targaryen.*

(*We put an asterisk here because we’re about to go deep: In many ways, the marriage of Elia and Rhaegar is the seed from which the entire narrative structure sprouts. To recap: Elia Martell of Dorne married Rhaegar Targaryen, son of the Mad King and the crown prince of Westeros. She loved him and bore him two children, but … something happened, that something caused a separation, and that separation became a war. In the Season 4 premiere, Oberyn says, flat-out, that Rhaegar left Elia for another woman. Thinking back to Season 1, we know that Ned’s father and brother went south to King’s Landing to protest something involving Rhaegar and Ned’s sister Lyanna, who was betrothed to Robert Baratheon. The death of Ned’s father and brother at the hands of the Mad King sparked Robert’s rebellion, which ended with Robert as king and Elia and her babes murdered. Coincidently, Ned Stark, a.k.a., The Most Honorable Man in the Realm, returned from said war with a ******* child whose mother he refuses to speak of. It all comes back to Rhaegar and Elia.)

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Trying to get the non-readers to buy into the "R+L=J" motif

quote:

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quote:
Benioff and Weiss had to pass a tricky test before series author George RR Martin agreed to the show. “[Martin] said, ‘Who do you think is Jon Snow’s real mother?’” Benioff relates. “We threw out our guess… and then slowly he smiled, and then we were in.”

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Nicely done. And after reading that, I STILL don't believe that Martin made his decision based on whether or not the producers had figured out who Jon's mother was. But I believe that he said he did.

MW, I kind of wish that wasn't out there for the non-readers already, but maybe the show/Martin decided it's time to start dropping some hints about Jon. Most of the viewers probably don't think about his mom at all.

quote:

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quote:I re-watched a handful of Season 3 episodes before the premier and noticed that when Theon was being tortured, he admitted to Bolton's bastage that he didn't actually kill Rickon and Bran.

I'm wondering if this is going to play a significant role later on and if Bolton will begin trying to hunt them down



This is a significant change from the books and I also wonder how it might play out in the show. Maybe crazy ass Ramsay doesn't even care about them, since one can't walk and the other is 6.

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In the end this was actually just smart writing. It was Ramsay that gave Theon the idea to kill the Miller's boys in Book 2 but he wasn't introduced until Season 3. They had to connect those dots. So Ramsay in both the Show and Books knows that Bran and Rickon are still unaccounted for, though whether or not he has told his father is another story.

I call BS on the Jon Snow mom interview question. I'm sure Martin asked them about it when they were discussion how the show would work.

But my guess is HBO showed up with a bag of money and contract for percentage of profits and Martin signed up.

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Personally I am kind of worn out by Dany and Jon from Book 5

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The biggest thing the show can fix, and yet another piece of evidence that TWOW storylines are going to need to begin popping up in Season 5. Jon and Dany can't brood in one place for an entire season. Fans love them and expect their stories to go somewhere.

When people say that Season 5 & 6 will cover AFFC and ADWD, they are dead wrong. Those books will be completely covered by the end of Season 5, and some of TWOW will already be working its way into the story.

quote:

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Benioff and Weiss had to pass a tricky test before series author George RR Martin agreed to the show. “[Martin] said, ‘Who do you think is Jon Snow’s real mother?’” Benioff relates. “We threw out our guess… and then slowly he smiled, and then we were in.

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[Inside GRRM's head as he smiles]: Fools. I will kill Jon Snow before I ever let anyone predict my story.

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quote:

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In order for the Boltons to legally have the North they need Tyrions marriage to be unconsumated, and all boys to be dead, then Ramsey marry sansa

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FIFY. Much like with King's Landing, if they have the power to hold Winterfell they will hold it, regardless of the 'rules.' Besides, didn't Tywin name Bolton warden of the North?

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First of all it will have to be legal for the North's bannermen to acquiesce. Half the North has stark somewhere in their name...and they are descendents of the first men.

I think tywin made Bolton warden of the North until Tyrion and sansa produce a son

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0

Honest Trailers has a nice GoT entry if y'all haven't come across this yet.

*** Possibly NSFW since there's a montage of bewbs that have black bars over them. Lots and lots of bewbs. ***

[This message has been edited by JRC0811 (edited 4/8/2014 12:19p).]

He already has the backing of the Karstarks, and as far as the rest of the north knows his newly legitimized son is married to a Stark.

As we know, Manderly is about to throw the whole plan off course for Bolton, and it's looking for Rickon. That is what I expect to be the undoing of Bolton in the north. Then again, getting our hopes up too much about anything is a sure sign it's all about to go to sh_t.

quote:

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0

Honest Trailers has a nice GoT entry if y'all haven't come across this yet.

*** Possibly NSFW since there's a montage of bewbs that have black bars over them. Lots and lots of bewbs. ***

[This message has been edited by JRC0811 (edited 4/8/2014 12:19p).]

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That. Was. Awesome.

Dragons and beeeewwwwbs.

I would be very surprised if either the Bolton's or Frey's survived WoW outside of a straggler or two. Everyone outside of Lady Dustin hates the Bolton's in the North and will never forgive the murder of Robb. The Frey's are totally dependent on the backing of the Lannisters but with the Lannisters in chaos with no Tywin or Kevan and Cersei about to go to trial that's not going to last. Not to mention once Walder Frey dies (which has to be soon) they will fight amongst themselves for the succession.

The Manderley's have most of their men, the only access to food in the North, and that fleet of ships they have built. They are going to be a major force to be reckoned with.

Maybe Walder Frey outlives everyone and marries Danerys.

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Maybe Walder Frey outlives everyone and marries Danerys.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaD8rouJn0

That video was hilarious

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and to all my book bros: R+L=J, you know what I'm talkin about.

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If this doesn't sum up the spoiler thread I don't know what does...

fantastic trailer!

I just watched that video again.

IMP SLAP!!

Loved the video.

Fwiw: http://www.latintimes.com/winds-winter-plot-spoilers-will-jon-snow-die-plus-will-he-avenge-starks-162803

That's actually a lot longer of an article than I figured it would be. As a side note, I really hate ads on mobile websites.

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Fwiw: http://www.latintimes.com/winds-winter-plot-spoilers-will-jon-snow-die-plus-will-he-avenge-starks-162803

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The last paragraph from that article is an incredibly interesting theory on Jon Snow as Azor Ahai.....

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Jon Snow will be resurrected by Melisandre, but again not with the kiss of life, instead she will perform a burning ceremony following the Azor Ahai prophecy. The red priestess will finally make the necessary connections when staring into the flames. In chapter 31 of “A Dance with Dragons,” Martin hinted at the possibility of Jon being the true Azor Ahai. “I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R'hllor shows me only Snow,” these are Melisandre’s thoughts, but it’s not until his death that she knows what she must do. However, this is not the first time that Jon’s destiny as the hero who defeated the Others has been hinted at, Jon has a dream in “A Dance with Dragons” where he is standing atop of the Wall in black armor with a flaming sword. Jon’s consciousness will most likely warg into Ghost’s mind, then Melisandre will burn his body with his sword, Longclaw, after the flames extinguish he will be reborn. This will not be the first time fans of “Game of Thrones” witness live emerge from flames. However the reborn Jon Snow while not be exactly the same, instead he will return to fulfill his destiny as a hybrid between his human self and his direwolf Ghost. Jon will emerge from the flames with white hair, which connects to his supposed origin as the third Targaryen as the love child of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen and to the “ice,” and the blood red eyes that Ghost possessed, which would give him the necessary “fire.” Some fan theories even claim that Jon will then yield his flaming sword, the real Lightbringer, and plunge it into the heart of Melisandre, fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy and readying himself to fight the White Walkers.

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That is a fascinating theory and actually is more interesting than Jon being "Undead" or simply warging in to Ghost because in either of those circumstances he would be very limited.

If Jon emerged from the flames though I could see him being worshiped like Dany and it would obviously set them up to marry and rule eventually. Still, the prophecy reads:

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When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt to wake dragons out of stone

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There was a giant killing a knight with a shield with a star as a sigil (but I think it was blue in a GRRM plug against the Cowboys "A Giant killing a man with a blue star" as GRRM is a big NY Giants fan and Cowboy hater) when Jon was killed but is there really "smoke and salt"? Would Jon then wake the dragon that some have speculated lives under Winterfell? I do think that since his sword is Valyrian Steel and he could stab it through Mel's heart makes sense though. Dany has no sword so it makes it hard for her to be Azor Ahai (and she is obviously female).

So many variables.

Didn't Jon smell smoke as he was being stabbed, and the brother was crying (salt)?