Yeah, it's interesting, but it relies too much on Rhllor and the Great Other being for real. There is way too much stuff going on with the various religous aspects in the series to say which is real or not.

For example, Melisandre and Thoros both have powers they attribute to Rhllor, but they are very different powers. Then you have whatever magic/power the greenseers and children of the forest have and the heart trees.

Let's assume that Rhllor vs the Great Other is the case. Are the heart trees (the old gods) and the children of the forest powers from the Great Other?

It's an interesting similarity b/w the 2 scenes, for sure. If Dany is the breaker of chains, will she come to Westeros and turn them all back into humans?

Nothing about the WW seemed to diverge or spoil anything to me. I think yall over analyzing the hell out of this.

lotsa interesting crackpot theories going on on the westeros.org forums and spoiler-friendly reddit threads

-craster's sons = white walkers has been a fairly universally accepted theory so not much new info there

-HBO synopsis already confirmed (accidentally?) that inverted darth maul guy was the Night's King

-if you look at the lineup of the WW "council", there are 13 (12 silhouetted plus the guy who turned the baby), all seem to be wearing black (image)

-the night's king was the 13th lord commander of the night's watch (source)

...WW ruling class = former lord commanders?!?!

also, someone pointed in a reddit thread that there was a parallel between Grey Worm's story at the beginning of the episode about his not remembering anything before becoming a slave as a baby, and the baby in the north starting life as a WW "slave"

which brings up the idea of maybe, just maybe, the night's king and his buddies being nothing more than "slave-owners" to a lower class of walkers, who in turn use the wights as their thralls

ARE THE WHITE WALKERS EVEN BAD GUYS?!?!

mind_blown.gif

i just realized some of this was already discussed in the last page, my bad. i agree with it

[This message has been edited by Elliot P. Campbell (edited 4/28/2014 11:22a).]

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Nothing about the WW seemed to diverge or spoil anything to me. I think yall over analyzing the hell out of this.

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Bingo!

also, i feel like it needs to be said again for those who think the show is diverging entirely from the books - D&D know what martin intended for the rest of the series, he's explicitly told them. what we were actually shown in the episode is pretty congruent with what's likely in the book series too (we just haven't had a PoV in the land of always winter)

I'm sure this will be taken as sacrilege, but I think I might enjoy the show more than the books. HBO has done a rather remarkable job of wrangling in GRRM's more incessant rambling. If they can manage to make Bran's story interesting, then all the more power to them.

As for the others, this is mildly interesting. It's from the very first chapter of Book 1 (Bran I):

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"The deserter died bravely," Robb said. He was big and broad and growing every day, with his mother's coloring, the fair skin, red-brown hair, and blue eyes of the Tullys of Riverrun. "He had courage, at the least." "No," Jon Snow said quietly. "It was not courage. This one was dead of fear. You could see it in his eyes, Stark." Jon's eyes were a grey so dark they seemed almost black, but there was little they did not see. He was of an age with Robb, but they did not look alike. Jon was slender where Robb was muscular, dark where Robb was fair, graceful and quick where his half brother was strong an d fast. Robb was not impressed. "The Others take his eyes," he swore. "He died well. Race you to the bridge?"

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good find MW03! and i'm starting to agree, there are aspects of the show i'm really enjoying more than the books, especially the more interesting storyline with Bran. it helps that the portrayals of all the characters are so great by the actors

Pretty meaningless, as later Robert says "The Others take my wife!" or something to that effect when he's complaining about Cersei. One of the funnier part of the book in my memory.

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The Others take my wife! Please!

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The best part about last night is it finally gave the book readers something that they dont know. For nearly 4 years watching the show is just catching up with plot/themes we already know. The fun has been seeing done so well on screen.

But never have we been "challenged" with new information. People who enjoy the ASOIAF world loved it. People who enjoy the ASOIAF books loathed it. They ran to this thread saying "WTF D.B. WEISS! SPOILERZZZSZ!"

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Still, I don't think the series ends with HBO. The divergence is key. Even through this episode, the story has diverged enough that it would be difficult to have the same ending. I wonder if the catch-up problem was resolved by taking the show in a different enough direction that it ends up being something else entirely before complete. An alternate reality ASOIAF.

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I don't think the two stories have diverged (or will diverge) enough to lead to two distinct endings.

Have there been departures from the book? Yes. Even significant departures from the book? Yes.

However, all of the HBO plot lines are still heading in the same directions as their book counterparts. For instance, Bran is still traveling north of the wall, and even though he and his crew are now prisoners at Craster's Keep in the show, there's no reason to think they won't end up with the Three Eye Crow, just like the do in the book.

All of the major plot events have been preserved, but the show sometimes takes a different path than the book to get from Event A to Event B.

Stop the arguing over this divergence business. I think most people are using the term "diverge" in the sense that the show is taking a different route to the same ending, not that it is going to be completely different. I would hope the show would keep the overall story the same.

GRRM needs to quit dicking around and just hire some ghost writers.

What if the babies aren't "turned into" something else, but "warged into" something else? Warging into a human is forbidden. Maybe because that's what Others do to humans?

[This message has been edited by G Martin 87 (edited 4/28/2014 1:23p).]

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GRRM needs to quit dicking around and just hire some ghost writers.

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I'm available. Just remove an "R" from his initials. Nobody would even know.
Signed, GRM

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I'm available. Just remove an "R" from his initials. Nobody would even know.
Signed, GRM

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Quit screwing around and get back to writing!

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Nothing about the WW seemed to diverge or spoil anything to me. I think yall over analyzing the hell out of this.

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The bit about the walkers taking the babies and turning them into baby walkers seems a bit spoilery, to me. Do you remember reading that?

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I think Vargo Hoat/whatever his name is in the show is about to get killed trying to kill Jon.

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I think he may be there to be the one to kill Snow. I think it may be too difficult to show the politics behind the murder of Snow and Hoat may be used as a "shortcut."

Can we assume Bolton won't hold Locke to his vows of the NW?

I didn't really think the baby WWs were much of a spoiler. I mean, what did y'all think they were doing with the kids? Killing them seemed pointless. It always made the most sense that the children were turned.

I thought they ate em...

For some odd reason, people who have read the books seem to have adopted some kind of sense of ownership over the source material. I see it all over online and on this board. It manifests itself in weird ways.

Sometimes, it comes across when people try and shepherd non-readers by commenting on what they're taking away from the show in a seemingly altruistic motive to get them to understand what's really going on. This was especially evident in Joff's murder. People couldn't wait to make sure non-readers were picking up on the smallest of clues to make sure they got what happened, apparently convinced that the show itself wouldn't divulge that information in its own time.

This conversation about the concept of "spoilers" for people that have read the books is equally odd to me. A spoiler in my personal opinion is when someone with superior knowledge reveals something before it is supposed to be revealed through the normal course of the material. Seeing something pop up on the show before we read about it in the books isn't a spoiler to me because it was revealed to us through a GRRM vehicle. In that sense, it's no more a spoiler than it would be to read about it for the first time in the book.
I suppose the book might be spoiled for you in the sense that you wouldn't get to read about it first, but the event didn't get spoiled. We're all getting it for the first time, and it's coming directly from the consenting hand of the author.

What's more, it seems like GRRM has already done that on a couple of occasions through more concise storytelling through the show. Speculation about Robb's heir pretty quickly dashed when GRRM has her stabbed repeatedly in the stomach. I still think the absence of Robb's letter to legitimize John in the show is conspicuous. Another example of an odd change was Catelyn's opening up about feeling bad about "cursing" John.

Anyway, I think we're going to be getting a lot more "spoilers", both implicitly and directly as this things moves on. I love it.

The CoTF don't control the Others, they sided with the First Men during The Long Night to war against them. They also carry obsidian weapons to protect themselves from the Others.

Martin actually is "George R" as well, he added the "RR" to his name as a tribute to Tolkien.

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I'm available. Just remove an "R" from his initials. Nobody would even know.
Signed, GRM

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Quit screwing around and get back to writing!

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Let's see... page 1 of George"s "Guidebook to Being a ASOIAF Ghost Writer for Fun and Profit" says... oh my. All right, don't take this personally, but I'm just following orders here.

QUIT YER B****ING! IT'LL BE READY WHEN I DAMN WELL FEEL LIKE IT.

Hey, whaddya know? That actually felt pretty liberating.

I got pissed at the books because they spoiled the show for me!!!

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I thought they ate em...

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me too. I figured the Others went all Christopher Reeve on the newborns, South Park-style

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This conversation about the concept of "spoilers" for people that have read the books is equally odd to me. A spoiler in my personal opinion is when someone with superior knowledge reveals something before it is supposed to be revealed through the normal course of the material. Seeing something pop up on the show before we read about it in the books isn't a spoiler to me because it was revealed to us through a GRRM vehicle. In that sense, it's no more a spoiler than it would be to read about it for the first time in the book.
I suppose the book might be spoiled for you in the sense that you wouldn't get to read about it first, but the event didn't get spoiled. We're all getting it for the first time, and it's coming directly from the consenting hand of the author.

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Where i disagree is the show is the adaptation of the books and not the same source. Thus by your definition of a spoiler that is exactly what happened.

Get used to it. Some storylines will advance ahead of where we are in the books very soon.

It's been beaten to death, but this series ends on HBO, not on page.

I actually think GRRM finishes the books his way, regardless of what happens with the show (which will inevitably pass him). The fact they are having more deviations will actually make it easier for him in some ways to write what he wants.

I also think it does matter to GRRM to finish the story himself in the books. He is adamantly opposed to allowing someone to finish the books if he dies and thus I can't imagine he would be cool with HBO just finishing the story however they want. It is still his masterpiece and he will want to finish it even if the show already is over.

I could also see a scenario where they do the next 2 seasons with WOW coming out in the meantime and the taking a little break before ADOS comes out. Martin has repeatedly thrown around the idea of a multi year break happening in the books previously so it would solve some of the actor age issues.

For that matter we don't know if Martin is thinking of the last 2 books as really one big book. He apparently writes by chapter POV anyway, meaning that he will write several Tyrion chapters for instance in a row so it is feasible he just bleeds into ADOS and just puts out WOW while he in the midst of it.

Or he could just take 4 more years for WOW and just spend all his time trying to get people to come to his damn theater he bought in Santa Fe, dying long before he finishes.

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but this series ends on HBO, not on page.

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I wouldn't say that's a certainty (as long as he lives long enough to finish it). I think he would still want to finish things out his way after putting all of this time and effort into it. If he is fine with his masterpiece being unfinished than that's on him, but I doubt that will happen because of his choice.

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but this series ends on HBO, not on page.

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I wouldn't say that's a certainty (as long as he lives long enough to finish it). I think he would still want to finish things out his way after putting all of this time and effort into it. If he is fine with his masterpiece being unfinished than that's on him, but I doubt that will happen because of his choice.

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Not with the ACA.

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A Game of Thrones August 1996

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A Clash of Kings February 1999

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2 years, 6 months

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A Storm of Swords November 2000

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1 year, 9 months

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A Feast for Crows November 2005

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5 years

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A Dance with Dragons July 2011

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5 years, 8 months

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The Winds of Winter (Forthcoming)

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2 years, 9 months and counting...

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A Dream of Spring (Forthcoming)

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I want GRRM to finish the books as much as anyone. However, it just isn't happening before the show ends. He has gotten progressively slower in writing, his books have gotten longer, and he now has more distractions than ever. Plus GRRM is 65 with a physique like Hot Pie so health needs to be factored in.

It took him almost 18 years to get 5/7 of the way done. Now that HBO has a cash cow, they are going to finish this on a reasonable time schedule irrespective of GRRM. Even if the showed stretched another 5 years, I just don't see GRRM releasing his last two books in that time and he has done nothing in the past to make me think he is capable of finishing that quickly.

I just rewatched the final scene. And I noticed something that may (or may not) be significant. As the head-Other walked forward, there were 12 other figures who bore witness to the baby conversation. One might assume there are 13 Elder-Others.

But what do we know about the timeline?

Over 8,000 years before Aegon's conquest was the Long Night. The Others were defeated by Azor and other heroes. Then Bran the Builder erected the Wall and the establishment of the Night's Watch.

During this time there was the Kings of the North, Kings-Beyond-the-Wall, and Lord Commanders of the NW. The 13th Lord Commander was the Night's King, who laid with a WW woman and ruled the Wall from the Nightfort the largest keep on the Wall. He continued screwing his WW-wife and making sacrifices (presumably like Caster does). He did this for 13 years. It took the King of the North (his brother) and the King-B-t-W to join forces to defeat him. So we know that the Nights King was indeed a Stark, and Ol Nan suggest his name, too, was Brandon. Who is he and who was his King of the North brother?



Here is a list of known Kings of the North

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Bran the Builder, founder of house Stark and the first King in the North, builder of Winterfell, Storm's End castles and the Wall.
King Theon the Hungry Wolf
King Brandon the Shipwright, loved sailing and built up a mighty Northern fleet.
King Brandon the Burner, son of Brandon the Shipwright, burned the entire Northern fleet after the disappearance of his father on the Sunset Sea.
King Jonnel Stark
King Dorren Stark
King Jon Stark, built the castle of White Harbor after driving away sea raiders.
King Rickard Stark, son of Jon, defeated the Marsh King extending their kingdom to include the Neck.
King Rodrik Stark, son of Rickard, won Bear Island from the ironborn in a wrestling match and awarded it to House Mormont.
King Edrick Stark
(King Brandon's Grandfather) <-my addition
(King Brandon's Father) <-my addition
King Brandon the Ice Eyes, great-grandson of Edrick
King Benjen the Bitter
King Benjen the Sweet
King Eyron Stark
King Edderion the Bridegroom
King Walton the Moonking
King Brandon the Bad
King Jorah Stark
King Jonos Stark
King Edwyn the Spring King
King Harlon Stark[9]
Torrhen the King Who Knelt, who bent the knee to Aegon the Conqueror, making the North part of the Seven Kingdoms.
Robb the Young Wolf

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It is said King Edrick ruled the north for over a hundred years, meaning they had long lives. Also notice his great-grandson: King Brandon the Ice Eyes. There have been 13 Kings of the North after IceEyes. And at least 13 Kings before him. What if he were a son of the Night's King? His uncle the King of the North who killed IceEyes father, who he shares his name.






So a few working theories about the 13 figures we saw:

1) they are the Night's Kings children (one from each year of his reign).
2) they, too, are Lord Commanders of the Nights Watch

...and one Im not ruling out.
3) they are Starks. Kings of the North. Taken from their crypts and given to the Ice-God.

That's been brought up in this thread - I'm liking the LC theory, personally

Its gonna blow everyone's mind when it is shown that those 13 are the 13 Kings of the North from Ice Eyes to Robb.


His kinghood (and death) was neccessary for the Others to fill their ranks. They have been waiting for centuries for another King of the North and then one was declared...

Any other Hearthstone players? Here's my new sweet Legendary card.