***Official Game of Thrones: Season 4 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***

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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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12:44p, 4/7/14
AG
just looked it up, according to imdb, the quote from ned to jon was:

quote:
There's great honor in serving the Night's Watch. The Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years, and you are a Stark. You may not have my name, but you have my blood.


interesting choice of words.
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Inspector Spacetime
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12:47p, 4/7/14
AG
quote:
Which Jon are you talking about? I haven't read book 5 yet, so their might be more info there that I need to get up to speed on.


Speaking as someone who was still finishing books 4 and 5 (or at least 5, I forget), I'd stay off this thread until you're done. I tried to skim through it to avoid spoilers, but it's just going to be tough if you want to truly have no hints at all. Just my opinion.
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Inspector Spacetime
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12:47p, 4/7/14
AG
First great GIF of this season. This is perfect.

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redline248
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1:35p, 4/7/14
AG
quote:
quote:
Which Jon are you talking about?
Jon Snow.

He isnt Ned's bast-urd, he is his nephew (his sister's child with the Targaryen


For clarity sake, this is still speculation.
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MSCAg
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1:46p, 4/7/14
AG
quote:
Theory:

Lyanna ran away with Rhaegar. Robert assumed she was kidnapped, and started the war to get her back. Rhaegar and Lyanna fled all they way to Dorne and holed up in the tower of Joy. When the Kingsguard went to find Rhaegar, they discovered that he had already left, so they stayed to protect Rhaegar's child by Lyanna. When Eddard & Co. showed up at the Tower of Joy and killed the Kingsguard, they found Lyanna with a baby. Knowing that the Baratheons and Lannisters had killed at the Targ kids, Lyanna made Eddard swear that the baby was hid ******* and not Rhaegar and Lyanna's child. Eddard never told Robert, who till the day of his death thought Lyanna loved him and had been kidnapped.

Now the only guy who knows about Jon's true parentage is Howland Reed. Incidentally, he's also the guy to whom Robb sent the document legitimizing Jon as the heir to Winterfell.


That seems the most popular theory, especially given how the books have played out. I can't remember if it was Feast or DanceWDragons, but other stories basically imply Lyanna and Rhag fell for each other. The story of the SheWolf and the tourney, plus Bariston's stories, etc.

All the evidence points to Jon being the "song of fire and ice" and really the only thing that goes against the theory is Martin seems to have made it so obvious in order to throw some crazy twist in it....


spoiler for those who haven't read DanceWDragons







well, that an that Jon very well may be dead after Dance
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OnlyForNow
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2:34p, 4/7/14
AG
So Dayne, Whent, and Hightower were beaten by Ned, Reed, and who else of name?

And answers:

At the end of the war, Eddard Stark and six of his companions (Howland Reed, Lord Willam Dustin, Ethan Glover, Martyn Cassel, Theo Wull, and Ser Mark Ryswell).

Any reason to tear down the tower, besides honor the dead?

And remind me, Lord Dustin's widow was the one that Ramsey kept prisoner right?

[This message has been edited by OnlyForNow (edited 4/7/2014 1:37p).]
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redbaron788
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2:38p, 4/7/14
AG
nevermind, you got it.

Lady Dustin is the one who tells Theon she hates Ned and is going to destroy his bones.

Lady Hornwwod is the one he married and locked in a room

[This message has been edited by redbaron788 (edited 4/7/2014 1:43p).]
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The Debt
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3:14p, 4/7/14
The white book brings up a bigger question, who left the ToJ and told the Kingsguard what happened so it could be recorded? Did Ned give a watered down version, and that is what is written?
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redline248
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3:17p, 4/7/14
AG
Barristan was retained and became commander, so he probably found out from Ned. Wouldn't be hard to surmise that they all died when Ned showed back up anyway.
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OnlyForNow
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4:43p, 4/7/14
AG
Why would lady Dustin hate the Starks (Ned)? Did he take Lord Dustin, only because Stark was his liege lord?
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aggie93
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4:46p, 4/7/14
AG
The key to the R+L relationship is the Tourney of Harrenhall and the Knight of the Laughing Tree story. It is clear Lyanna isn't enamored with Robert but Robert is in love with her. It seems most likely that Lyanna was the KoLT and Rhaegar was sent to find "him" but came back saying he could not. Then Rhaegar defies convention by making Lyanna "Queen of Love and Beauty" at the end of the Tourney when he won instead of his wife.

The hints are strong that it was a consensual match, the only person who has said anything to the contrary is Robert but of course he wouldn't be willing to admit that Lyanna preferred Rhaegar over him. Ned also doesn't seem to have any ill will toward Rhaegar which would indicate that Lyanna told him that she loved him.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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5:07p, 4/7/14
So a 9 on 3 fight results in the Kingsguard killing 7 of the 9, and only Ned and Howland Reed surviving.

Makes me want to know more about Howland Reed.
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aggie93
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5:08p, 4/7/14
AG
Here is the relevant wiki on why Lady Dustin hates the Starks and especially Ned:

quote:
In her youth Barbrey was infatuated with Brandon Stark, who took her maidenhead. She claims Brandon never wanted to marry Catelyn Tully and that the match was made when Lord Rickard Stark's maester, Walys, put the idea in Rickard's head. Lady Dustin is extremely distrustful of maesters in general and refers to them as grey rats.

When her husband, Willam Dustin, rode off to war in Robert's Rebellion, Barbrey gifted him with a fine red steed, the pride of her father's herd. Lord Willam swore he would return to her mounted on the horse. After the war Lord Eddard Stark returned the steed to Barbrey, but not her lord husband, who died at the Tower of Joy. She bears an intense grudge against Eddard for not bringing her husband's bones north with him so she could bury him at his ancestral home.
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aggie93
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5:10p, 4/7/14
AG
Actually it was 7 on 3 but yes, Howland Reed is probably the most interesting character in the books that we haven't met. He was probably Ned's most trusted friend and is the only one alive who knows what happened with Lyanna and how Jon came to be. He likely also knows the truth about Ashara Dayne and why she "killed herself" or not. No telling what else he knows as he likely also has Green Dreams like his son.
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MW03
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5:46p, 4/7/14
AG
Reed is going to show up and tell the world that Jon Snow, the commander of the night's watch, is also:

- The lord of Winterfell;
- warden of the North;
- The lord of Dragonstone; and
- The rightful heir of the Iron Throne

AKA, the GOAT

But then again, I guess he relinquished his rights to all titles and lands when he took the oath. Whoops.

[This message has been edited by MW03 (edited 4/7/2014 4:47p).]
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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5:52p, 4/7/14
nothing in the oath saying "and no riding dragons."
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hunter2012
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5:55p, 4/7/14
AG
Couldn't the most recent Jon chapter be considered a "discharge" from the night's watch?
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FL_Ag1998
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5:57p, 4/7/14
AG
Not that it means all that much, but I'm rereading the books now, and in book 1, Ned recalls his sister remarking to him that Robert may love her, but love can't change a man's nature. She was clearly referring to Robert's philandering ways, but the way Ned recalled it also implied (to me) that Robert was not her true love.
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MaroonStain
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6:04p, 4/7/14
AG
He took the oath without complete knowledge of his lineage. Said oath can be null and void. He's not a Templar.

Like saying Aragorn should not be crowned king...
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Dr. Teeth
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6:07p, 4/7/14
AG
quote:
He took the oath without complete knowledge of his lineage. Said oath can be null and void. He's not a Templar.


But if you're Ned and you do know... how do you let Jon take the black?
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redline248
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6:15p, 4/7/14
AG
Because as far as he knows Robert will be king for a long time, then his kids and he doesn't want any of them coming to kill Jon.
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LawAg05
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6:43p, 4/7/14
AG
I think the Others will change the dynamic of everything so Jon's oath to the nights watch will be the least important problem they have.

If at the end most everyone is dead, Jon is the legitimate heir, and he successfully defeated a zombie horde then i don't think a few words he said prior to all that will prevent him from being king. Besides, he already broke his oath as was explained this last episode and he wasn't killed.
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The Debt
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6:51p, 4/7/14
quote:
quote:
He took the oath without complete knowledge of his lineage. Said oath can be null and void. He's not a Templar.


But if you're Ned and you do know... how do you let Jon take the black?

Whenever there are too many Targaryen (too many claims to the throne) taking the black clarifies the line of succession.

Imagine a king with three prince sons. The older one has daughters. The middle prince has a son. The youngest is SOL. It may be best that #1 renounces because the family name would no longer hold the crown through his daughters marriage. Unless of course the daughter was forced to marry the middle princes son. At the end of the day it would just be best for #1 to abdicate
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MaroonStain
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6:54p, 4/7/14
AG
Exactly LawAg.

Right now it's South vs. North (with a few on periphery looking to jump on/in), then Danaerys and Wildlings back and forth for Show followed by the Walkers being pushed by the Others.

Should take all three dragons, remnants of Westeros and leftover Wildlings plus whatever else to beat Others.

I haven't picked up the series in quite a while and I'm stuck about 1/4 way thru FfC.

So much for my theory that Jon Snow marries Danaerys after Igrit is killed...
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OnlyForNow
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7:31p, 4/7/14
AG
The whole, not bringing his bones back... Coupled with the fact they dismantled the tower makes me think that something else happened.
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Elliot P. Campbell
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9:02p, 4/7/14
AG
Not sure if this has been said....but the next episode is the royal wedding

I think it's gonna be a big surprise for non-readers
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redline248
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9:26p, 4/7/14
AG
from page 6 of the non-spoilers thread:

quote:
Joffrey disrespecting literally everyone in his family is making it abundantly clear he's not gonna last much longer, IMO. Many outside King's Landing want him dead, and now many on the inside will as well. To add to the fire, the new prince that hates the Lannisters is likely planning on bringing him down as well. The people of KL that do love him are mainly due to Margaery's machinations.

My guess is he's sleeping with the fishes before the season's over, by an inside job. Here are my theories of likeliest suspects, in order of who wants him dead the most:

1. New guy (Prince of Dorne)
2. Sansa
3. Tyrion
4. Margaery
5. Jaime
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Elliot P. Campbell
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9:36p, 4/7/14
AG
True, hopefully they won't expect it so early in the season
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mid90
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10:04p, 4/7/14
AG
Just watched the new episode.


Holy carp. I did not expect it to be so satisfying to see Arya kill Polliver and get Needle back.


Plus the Hound is a BAMF
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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11:37p, 4/7/14
excellent point about the others/white walkers changing the game. If they knock the wall down and slaughter what's left of the night's watch, jon holding to his vows and refusing to embrace his destiny would just be dumb.

as thin as the night's watch already is, if you get the bad end of the battle with the white walkers, jon would be lord commander, maester, his own steward and every other role combined.
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hunter2012
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2:16a, 4/8/14
AG
I love how we are all speculating over Jon while ignoring what happens to him in the last chapter.
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Twelfthman
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3:22a, 4/8/14
AG
quote:
I love how we are all speculating over Jon while ignoring what happens to him in the last chapter.


He can't die. Because plot armor. Oh, wait...

But I don't think he died. Yeah, Martin isn't afraid to kill characters, but Jon Snow is one that he's stated some of his plans for already, and hasn't followed through. Jon still doesn't know his parentage. He's also the only POV character close to the wall.

Also, he's Jon Snow. And I don't want him to die.
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Greeze06
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7:55a, 4/8/14
AG
The way I read Jon's death was that he warged last minute like whats his face with the eagle. Wasnt there a chapter opening that book that went into detail about that? Why else have that chapter because the players involved aren't relevant.
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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8:00a, 4/8/14
AG
quote:

I love how we are all speculating over Jon while ignoring what happens to him in the last chapter.

You know nothing....
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Quad Dog
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10:04a, 4/8/14
AG
Here's the Night's Watch oath:
quote:
"Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come."

Sounds like dying would void that oath.
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