Maybe the white walkers upgraded their undead making tech.

So, the presence of those wights near to the cotf cave makes me wonder if the white walkers know they are there and trying to keep them from coming out and doing anything.

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The Jojen death makes me think the Jojen Paste theory is correct.

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Seems like GRRM just blew him up on the show. Reminds me a bit of how they made it a point to repeatedly stab Mrs. Robb in the stomach about 20 times just to make it clear that the theory is wrong.

On things the show did better than the books, I was much sadder about the hound/arya last night than I remember being when I got to that section of the books. They did a really remarkable job of telling that story.

I may be the only one but I am glad that LSH didn't show up yet. Its not like she does much anyway. It will be much cooler to reveal her after Jamie leaves kinds landing and starts hearing rumors about lanisters and Frey's mysteriously disappearing. I also hate Cat's storyline so much that minimizing it as much as possible will only make the show better.

I thought the last episode was great except Brienne meeting Arya its too coincidental. It will probably play better for when Brienne meets LSH.

[This message has been edited by cainer (edited 6/16/2014 9:17a).]

Yea MW that was hard to watch, it made me wish they had let her put him out of his misery. Can't wait to see how his character changes in the future.

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Seems like GRRM just blew him up on the show.

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so in the next Bran chapter Jojen is just dead in the cave with no further explanation?

Varys - ok in the book he did not get on the ship...but he did just disappear after he helped Tyrion escape until he turns back up sneaking into the castle to kill Qyburn and Kevan L. He was rumored during that time to be under an alias of a former dungeon turnkey who also disappeared and behind some plots causing unrest in KL. So I don't see it as a big problem that he got on the boat. Doesn't mean he has to stay with Tyrion he could just get off and go his own way.

As for Jojen - he was not dead in the books. He was carried inside the cave by Meera, then falls into a deep depression and wants to go home, supposedly he had a vision of his future and it was not good - hence perhaps he does die soon in the books and it is a moot point. but he was not dead yet.

I think they could have done a lot of things better.

Tysha was a integral part of Tyrion's character development. It informed his relationship with his father and his brother, and when Jamie revealed she wasn't a hoar, he "snapped." In the first half of aDwD, Tyrion is basically going through some kind of nervous breakdown which doesn't really end until he gets to Mereen.

It also set up the best line in the entire book: "Where do hoars go?"

The show chose to omit this entire thing, which is unfortunate because it seemed like it was really important in the book.

The Brienne/Arya thing was actually ok, even if it was little too coincidental.

I think leaving out LSH was a mistake, because there isn't really a cliff-hanger for next season.

Also, Bran making it to the tree is all the way from Book 5, so there is a lack of material for him going into next season. They are completely caught up with his story as it exists today.

I think the point of showing Varys on the ship was simply to enforce to the show viewers/non readers that Varys is NOT with the Lannisters and is plotting against them. Whether or not he goes to Essos or stays in Westeros, he still has to show up to kill Pycelle and Kevan, probably end of next season.

I also would not be suprised if Stoneheart does not show up at all and the Brother without Banners storyline ends. It's subplot material. Unlike GRRM, HBO can't go 50 directions at once all the time.

i guess we have to assume they're going to start outright spoiling WoW/DoS as soon as next season

Jojen knows how and when he dies through his green dreams. I don't think it's revealed what he knows only that he does know. At some point I thought he says he won't die until he's back home, but I may be confusing that with his being homesick. Meera and Jojen both start to regret travelling north of the wall.

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i guess we have to assume they're going to start outright spoiling WoW/DoS as soon as next season

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Yup. we're caught up on Bran, and actually a good way through Dany and Theon thru book 5

Next year we get to enjoy the series the way the non readers do. Looking forward to it

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I also would not be suprised if Stoneheart does not show up at all and the Brother without Banners storyline ends. It's subplot material. Unlike GRRM, HBO can't go 50 directions at once all the time.

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It's not really a subplot....Brienne and Jaime are at the mercy of LSH. Two major characters....

Good episode but also one of the clear reasons the books are better.

The Tysha issue is a major struggle for Tyrion. It defined the split between Tyrion and Jamie, who generally truly loved each other, it was the biggest reason Tyrion shot Tywin, and it was the reason for all his struggles in ADWD. Good grief, half of Tyrion's lines are gone considering every other thing he says in Dance is "where do wh**es go?"

I wondered if this was going to happen since they didn't bring up Tysha much in the series.

I like the Briene/Hound fight was good. My first reaction was this is overly contrived, but I see why they did it. Briene's story wasn't all that interesting, so it was a good way to resolve it plus kill the Hound.

Was annoyed at Jojen's death just because it would seem to give away a lot for Winter. Felt unneeded at this point. Otherwise, I loved the scene of them fighting the dead to the Tree. Did make me think of Jason and the Argonauts though.

From what I remember, he was quite alive in the Tree but just got really depressed. I remember he wanted to go back home but it was implied he'd die there/along the way. I don't remember any definitive clues he died at the tree, but my memory may be off.

[This message has been edited by MSCAg (edited 6/16/2014 10:33a).]

We aren't completely caught up with Bran's story. Sure he made it to the raven, but he still has all the lessons to learn about his powers. Like maybe 2 episodes worth, ha.

I never felt Tyrion's obsession with Tysha was all that important to the story. Sure it led to his snap, but what purpose does it serve after he kills Tywin? It actually made me less interested in his character.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 6/16/2014 10:35a).]

I think there are plenty of reasons for Tyrion to have a mental breakdown other than the Tysha reveal.

Dave - I think enough material remains from AFFC and ADWD to fill next season with exception to the Brand storyline.

In the north
- Wildling truce. Stannis moves on Winterfell. Ramsay's wedding and chaos inside Winterfell (Mance). Jon Snow's potential demise

Riverlands
- Jamie sets out to end sieges/end the war. Maybe LSH is revealed as Brienne returns from the Vale. Lancel goes godly, forsakes his lordship and heads to KL.

The Vale
- LF and Sansa play the game. This could get spoilerish as more would have to be revealed as to how LF plans to bring the Vale in to the conflict.

Kings Landing
- Tons going on. Kevan takes over as hand. Cercie is accused and jailed. The eventual walk of shame to the red keep. The creation of Robert Strong.

Dorne
- Introduction of Aero Hotah, Prince Doran, and Arianne. My guess is they leave the Sand Snakes mostly out. I actually think they will greatly limit the role of Dorne and mostly just make the point of the anger towards the Lannisters and all of the strength of Dorne ready to link themselves to a pro-Targaryan movement.

Stormlands
- seige of Dragonstone (or Storm's End, can't remember). The arrival of Aegon/Jon Connington and the Gold Company.

Essos
- Dany's wedding to Lodzar (sp). The fighting pits with Drogon making an entrance. Dany leaving, then encountering the Khalasar of Khal Whoever. Tyrion and Jorah and whatever route that HBO writers decide to take that. Surely will be greatly shortened to get those characters up to the siege of Mereen which surely is the end point of season 5

I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out, but I think there is plenty of room to not get too far into WoW.

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i guess we have to assume they're going to start outright spoiling WoW/DoS as soon as next season

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Yup. we're caught up on Bran, and actually a good way through Dany and Theon thru book 5

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Bran has a little more to go actually, so depending on how much of him they include in next season, they could stretch his "training." Also, some storylines like Dany and Theon can easily take an entire season to catch completely up. I'm optimistic that we don't get into new material (or at least mostly) until Season 6.

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It's not really a subplot....Brienne and Jaime are at the mercy of LSH. Two major characters....

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At this point in the novel and television show material, Lady Stoneheart is nothing more than a subplot for both. You're getting way ahead of this show by suggesting "Brienne and Jaime are at the mercy of LSH."

I am fine with Stoneheart being moved into Season 5 since there will be (what some readers consider) boring material from A Feast for Crows to cover. Jaime restoring order to the Riverlands, Tywin's funeral, M. Tyrell intrigue in King's Landing.

Stoneheart plus Stannis in the north, the battles in Slaver's Bay, the Ironborn plot... that should be plenty for 10 episodes. I am curious to see how Season 5 will show Tyrion getting to Volantis and Griff, etc. Also Arya in Braavos, Bran/Bloodraven.

Brienne and Jaime's showdown doesn't become a big deal til later on.

I really think there is enough book material for Season 5 to go on. If Season 5 draws on any material from ADOS, I hope it is Dany, Tyrion, etc. all heading for Westeros on ships.

Huge missed opportunity on the LSH reveal. Lena Heanley is dead to me. She trolled the entire internet.

I thought the finale could have been better. The skeleton's fighting and magic grenades were a bit much and may be a turn off for non-fantasy lovers. The big appeal of GoT for mainstream viewers was the lack of this sort of plot mechanic. My wife thought that part was ridiculous.

The Tyrion/Twyin/Shae scene was great. They should have made this the last scene of the episode rather than Arya going to Braavos. That would have made for a more dramatic ending.

Also, what does this finale tell us about the fate of the Hound? It sure looks like he died, but it wasn't confirmed. If the Hound is just meant to stay in the Quiet Isles for the rest of the books, then they might as well just kill him off in the show. This looks to be what happened, although I would love for the show to bring him back because he is such a great character.

agree with Urban Ag - plenty of other stuff...

could continue Bran story a little with training but it does not have to be a major plot point for that season.

Urban you forgot Arya training in Braavos too that should be a major story arc.

lots of new characters, lots in KL with Maergery/Cersei and the Riverlands with Jamie and Brienne plus I expect LSH. then all the Essos stuff should get them thru book 5 pretty much.

I'm thinking season 5 gets us thru book 5 pretty much.

At that point if book 6 is out in 2015 sometime before season 6 then only season 7 is gonna happen before the book, i hope.

well GRRM usually kills of characters he wants dead emphatically....for soemreason he did not kill of the hound that way and neither did the show...what does that tell you.

it tells me he is not done in either the book or the show and the show producers/writers know it too.

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I'm sure I'm leaving stuff out

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kingsmoot

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I thought the finale could have been better. The skeleton's fighting and magic grenades were a bit much and may be a turn off for non-fantasy lovers. The big appeal of GoT for mainstream viewers was the lack of this sort of plot mechanic. My wife thought that part was ridiculous.

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Hm, yeah, I suppose. But let's be real, the novels are still fantasy at the end of the day. They're gonna have to show stuff like that, especially since all indications are that we'll only be getting more of that in the last two books.

[This message has been edited by elliot p. Campbell (edited 6/16/2014 10:51a).]

I think if they wanted the Hound dead, they would have confirmed him dead. I like the redemption theme that many allude to. I think he still has a role to play before this is all said and done.

The series changed the character in ways the book never developed him. His vulnerability when telling Arya about how he was burned completely changed him, to me anyway. I think it all lends to something more to come.

and everything going on in dorne and the iron islands and braavos is cool, so, like you said, there is non-boring stuff to film

but the focus of the TV show has been mostly KL, the Wall (to a lesser degree), Bran, and whatever Dany is up to

maybe i'm forgetting a lot of what i read, but it seems like those plots were kinda of a penalty kill in books 4/5

the show's pivot to the larger world would be great, albeit difficult to pull off for the TV-only crowd. just look at the mixed reviews for last week's Wall siege episode.

My wife, exclusively a show-watcher, was convinced that Tyrion was going to die. She was very pleased when he escaped, but she didn't trust it. She kept yelling for him to get out of the castle and leave KL.

It occurred to me then that GRRM is really Ramsay Bolton, and we are all Reek. He's been so vicious, that even when he's pouring the readers a nice relaxing bath, we all assume it's full of boiling oil or something.

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Hm, yeah, I suppose. But let's be real, the novels are still fantasy at the end of the day. They're gonna have to show stuff like that, especially since all indications are that we'll only be getting more of that in the last two books.

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I think the biggest issue was that the scene seemed like low-budget fantasy between the skeletons and magic balls. The dragons, wolves, walkers, sorcery/magic, etc. up to this point has looked better and seemed more badass for those who may not like as much fantasy. If the wights had looked more like wights, and she had come out and shielded them with a continuous blaze of fire (a la Dumbledore: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0iQJXEaa28) then I think more people would have responded better to it.

Very happy with the changes to the Arya/Hound/Brienne stuff. That was much more interesting than the books and got to the same place. Solid rewrite.

Liked the Stannis stuff. Seeing the horses in formation in a flanking maneuver was freaking awesome. Also thought the added scenes with Jon asking about Free Folk burial and Jon burning Ygrittes body were well done.

I'm with everyone else about the mistake of leaving out Tysha storyline. That was a big mistake and greatly reduced the emotional impact of that story. Hearing Tywin say "Wherever *****s go" and "You are no son of mine" (thus igniting more toward the Tyrion is a Targ theory) was a real lost opportunity. It just wasn't as powerful as it could have been and it seems to be in the spirit of "let's make Jaime more of a nice guy".

Don't know why the wights became some skeleton creatures coming out of the ground. My Non Reader friends so far thought they were some new "monster" and not wights. Jojen dying is no big deal other than it is book spoiler. The fire grenade thing from COTF seemed a little hokey. Super pumped about Bloodraven though and that they had the "you won't ever walk but you will fly" line. Non Readers are very confused by Bran's story though.

The Dany scenes were well done but nothing special.

Arya leaving on the boat was well done, though I would have liked the Captain to get even more freaked out by the coin and say she would get HIS cabin.

I'm ok with no LSH though I don't like that it was teased all year. Wonder if she is cut completely now?

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Don't know why the wights became some skeleton creatures coming out of the ground. My Non Reader friends so far thought they were some new "monster" and not wights.

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Pretty much all I could think of during that scene

[This message has been edited by MW03 (edited 6/16/2014 11:43a).]

I don't think LSH will be cut out.

Stannis was awesome and really showed why he is the one true king.

As far as Bran material he can be used to write in some background stuff by having him watch events through the trees.

From what i recall from the books jojen wasn't dead yet but very close to dying. Don't see his death as a big change. never bought into the paste theory and glad to see that dispelled.

cool chart of what's been covered to date

http://i.imgur.com/lceExOP.jpg

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Wights are known to be slow, clumsy and unstoppable except for by burning.

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Ima disagree with you there. I just watched the first scene of Episode 1, Season 1 and those wights are scary as heck. Everywhere, hard to spot, and extremely deadly.

That said... the show has had some inconsistent presentation of them. The wights that appear at the end of Season 2 (lumbering toward the wall) look like your standard zombie fare.

I wasn't a huge fan of the skeletons, but I just wanted to point that out. One wight in S1E1 even makes a panther-like noise as it dashes through the forest. So I guess they aren't like Shaun of the Dead zombies or anything. At least not all the time.

Totally stole this from a comments section of one of the summaries I read, but they went to all that trouble to show Hot Pie giving Pod and Brienne that piece of wolf bread, only to not bring it up when they saw her again... Even if they had ate the bread, at the very least the entire fight could possibly have been stopped by just mentioning Hot Pie to try to gain Arya's trust.