I look at the show as confirmation of upcoming theories and plot lines which have not yet been released. Revealing Brienne is in "love" with Jaime is a prime example of something ambiguous in the books but confirmed in the show.
***Official Game of Thrones: Season 4 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***
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Last: 10 yr ago by Twelfthman
That wouldn't have hurt his goal. He wanted Stark v Lannister, which is why he said it was Tyrion's dagger.
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I think you have two problems on that end. In the books, you've got POV interpretations of events. Characters (if they are not directly confessing) are only relating what they believe to be true. This is compounded by the problem of the "unreliable narrator" when your POV character is learning things from people who are known manipulators and liars (i.e., Littlefinger).
However, in the show, you are actually witnessing most events firsthand without having to rely on hearsay. I think that's why it's important to note that GRRM was the writer of the Purple Wedding. Martin is having to leave enough detail in what you can actually witness on the screen as opposed to having to rely on some version of the hearsay truth.
Agreed completely. It is ambiguous in the books because GRRM writes in POV. The show gave him the opportunity to make it crystal clear. Forgive the pun.
I think we're also going to learn in pretty short order that Tyrion was looking at the jewel in the cup at the end of the episode (hence his confused face). He'll also know that the stone wasn't in there when Sansa handed him the cup. That's why in the "scenes from next week" he appears convinced that he was set up to take the fall.
The Tyrells had to know that Joff would attack either Sansa or Tyrion at some point. I think they wanted that stone found. More speculation. I don't think the Tyrell's intended to save Sansa. I think that was Dontos acting (with Littlefinger) to repay Sansa for saving his life. And of course, Littlefinger making a play to be the eventual Lord of Winterfell.
The Tyrells had to know that Joff would attack either Sansa or Tyrion at some point. I think they wanted that stone found. More speculation. I don't think the Tyrell's intended to save Sansa. I think that was Dontos acting (with Littlefinger) to repay Sansa for saving his life. And of course, Littlefinger making a play to be the eventual Lord of Winterfell.
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That wouldn't have hurt his goal. He wanted Stark v Lannister, which is why he said it was Tyrion's dagger.
Right, so Petyr steals a dagger from Robert Baratheon and intentionally sends a sloppy assassin to kill Bran knowing he will just blame it on Tyrion.
I always thought Joffrey was too stupid to come up with any plans. Cersei showed herself to be sloppy at times, and it was Tyrion's first suspicion that it was her that sent the assassin.
Is Tyrion set up to be the "smartest" and therefore, do we trust his interpretation of events over other characters?
Agree 100% MW. The Tyrells set up Sansa to take the fall, I have no doubt of that. Littlefinger saved her for his own purposes and used Dontos to get to her.
Great observation about the jewel still being in the cup. That would have also confused Tyrion more if he noticed that it matched the jewels on Sansa's necklace. In the books, doesn't he believe that Sansa was the poisoner?
Great observation about the jewel still being in the cup. That would have also confused Tyrion more if he noticed that it matched the jewels on Sansa's necklace. In the books, doesn't he believe that Sansa was the poisoner?
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Agree 100% MW. The Tyrells set up Sansa to take the fall, I have no doubt of that.
Not so fast my friend!
Weren't the Tyrells trying to marry Sansa off to Willas just a few chapters earlier?
Did they know Cersei wouldn't go for it? Did they plan on Cersei not going for it?
Once Cersei had Sansa marry Tyrion, did the Tyrell's change plans?
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I agree with the Joff sending the assassin to kill Bran. That's what we're left to believe that Tyrion figured out.
However, there is a statement Littlefinger makes to Sansa once she makes it to the Eyrie about "Sometimes you do things that may even hurt your goal just to keep your enemies from knowing your true intentions."
That led me to think that maybe Baelish sent the assassin to kill Bran.
But that doesn't hurt LF's position or plans. If anything it accelerates then he wants war because chaos is a ladder.
Even if the knife man succeeded, how does Bran death hurt LF?
I don't know if the Tyrells actually planned to marry her to Willas or if that was just a way to gain her trust. At the time Robb was still the King in the North and they might have been it as a good insurance move in case he won.
But once she was marred to Tyrion, they no longer cared what happened to her at all. They may have liked her - I think they probably did - but she was a piece of the game. Olenna Tyrell is probably one of the best players of the Game of Thrones in the books.
But once she was marred to Tyrion, they no longer cared what happened to her at all. They may have liked her - I think they probably did - but she was a piece of the game. Olenna Tyrell is probably one of the best players of the Game of Thrones in the books.
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That wouldn't have hurt his goal. He wanted Stark v Lannister, which is why he said it was Tyrion's dagger.
Right, so Petyr steals a dagger from Robert Baratheon and intentionally sends a sloppy assassin to kill Bran knowing he will just blame it on Tyrion.
You said LF's statement about sometimes having to hurt your own goals led you to consider that LF sent the assassin. That wouldn't hurt his goals.
Yes I believe Tyrion accurately figured it out and that Joff knew he figured it out. You're right Joff is stupid, that's why he picked a valyrian steel dagger instead of some kitchen knife. Seems like it happened too soon after Bran's fall for LF to learn about it and send an assassin anyway.
So let's see:
LF poisons Jon Arryn via Lysa(setting everything in motion)
LF poisons Joffery via the Tyrells
Ned confronts LF on the catspaw LF deflects it to Tyrion
Occam's Razor:LF was telling the truth but instead of Tyrion taking it he sent the assassin. Regardless of success he would get what he wants, the Starks' suspecting the Lannisters.
LF poisons Jon Arryn via Lysa(setting everything in motion)
LF poisons Joffery via the Tyrells
Ned confronts LF on the catspaw LF deflects it to Tyrion
Occam's Razor:LF was telling the truth but instead of Tyrion taking it he sent the assassin. Regardless of success he would get what he wants, the Starks' suspecting the Lannisters.
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I think we're also going to learn in pretty short order that Tyrion was looking at the jewel in the cup at the end of the episode (hence his confused face).
idk, I mean maybe.....the more likely reason for his confused face was "damn, what was in this wine?"
I figured it would have dissolved in wine.
I agree with the poster above that Joff did not send an assassin to kill Bran. He had no motivation. I still am not sure the whole motivation behind that.
Someone stated earlier that LF wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. What would be his motivation for that? I think the show portrayed the Tyrells behind the murder because they knew how cruel Joff really is. Since the marriage had not been consummated I think they knew that Margery would simply marry the next heir in line.
Someone stated earlier that LF wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. What would be his motivation for that? I think the show portrayed the Tyrells behind the murder because they knew how cruel Joff really is. Since the marriage had not been consummated I think they knew that Margery would simply marry the next heir in line.
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Always keep your foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you. Remember that, Sansa, when you come to play the game.
quote:He was pissed he had to observe courtesies with the Starks, remember Tyrion slapping him twice? He wanted to lash out and killing someone who forced him to pretend to be kind and it pissed him off. And Tyrion exacerbated that.
I agree with the poster above that Joff did not send an assassin to kill Bran. He had no motivation.
[This message has been edited by The Debt (edited 4/16/2014 11:29a).]
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Someone stated earlier that LF wanted to frame Sansa for the murder. What would be his motivation for that?
Because it makes her totally dependent on him to save her. She can't run away, can't go elsewhere for help because she's wanted for treason - murder of the king. And if she betrays him he can use it against her.
[This message has been edited by jenn96 (edited 4/16/2014 11:46a).]
quote:quote:He was pissed he had to observe courtesies with the Starks, remember Tyrion slapping him twice? He wanted to lash out and killing someone who forced him to pretend to be kind and it pissed him off. And Tyrion exacerbated that.
I agree with the poster above that Joff did not send an assassin to kill Bran. He had no motivation.
I think it was more along the lines of what Tyrion mentions to be the case. He's a 12-13 year old that hears his parents say "It'd be a mercy if they just killed the boy." So he decided to take action. Being the cruel little f_ckstick that he is, he thinks it is a good idea.
Does is bug anyone else that they have Tommen looking about 6-8 years older than he should be? He becomes King when he is about 6 and all he cares about is playing with kittens and getting to use the King's wax seal.
In the show he's always been older (just like Sansa, Robb, Jon, Arya, Bran, Rickon and Joff). This is a different actor, too. It's not a big deal. They'll find other ways to show he's not ready to be a king.
Littlefinger doesn't want to frame her (the Tyrell's do, she's a convenient person who might have motive). Littlefinger simply goes along with it and helps the Tyrell's in order to set up a situation where he can remove Sansa from court in the ensuing confusion and force Sansa to be divorced from Tyrion or have Tyrion get killed thus widowing her.
[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 4/16/2014 11:59a).]
[This message has been edited by JJxvi (edited 4/16/2014 11:59a).]
He seems to have aged just a wee bit since the battle of the Blackwater
yep, the new actor is older. Still don't care.
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Right, so Petyr steals a dagger from Robert Baratheon and intentionally sends a sloppy assassin to kill Bran knowing he will just blame it on Tyrion.
Littlefinger was never in Winterfell so he could not have sent an assassin to kill Bran because he didn't know about Bran's incident at that time.
However, he did know who was supposed to be the current owner of the dagger (Hint: It wasn't Tyrion), but he is a master liar and manipulator that he couldn't allow a good opportunity to create or spread discourse get away.
the picture of Joffrey and the pie has so many photoshop implications it makes my head spin.
New question I've been pondering. Can a warg (say Jon Snow or Bran) take possession of a dragon?
New question I've been pondering. Can a warg (say Jon Snow or Bran) take possession of a dragon?
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I agree with the poster above that Joff did not send an assassin to kill Bran. He had no motivation.
Joff did send the assassin and he did have motivation. It states the reason clearly in the books.
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Can a warg (say Jon Snow or Bran) take possession of a dragon?
I can't recall if it ever was mentioned, but they probably can.
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I agree with the poster above that Joff did not send an assassin to kill Bran. He had no motivation.
Joff did send the assassin and he did have motivation. It states the reason clearly in the books.
I agree.
Re: warging a dragon. It's unknown. Huge point of speculation on the fan boards. One theory (based on nothing but imagination) is that the destruction of Hardhome happened when someone tried to warg a dragon and drove it insane. No evidence but fun to talk about.
[This message has been edited by Jenn96 (edited 4/16/2014 1:37p).]
[This message has been edited by Jenn96 (edited 4/16/2014 1:37p).]
Wow Tommen is a lot older than he should be, how do you show immaturity on someone that old? He looks to be same age as Joffery in season 1...
Also Ingrid dies next... I'm calling it now...
Also Ingrid dies next... I'm calling it now...
The whole using a gem from the hairnet theory has always seemed a little overly complex? Why not just carry the poison on yourself? The book never mentions them finding anything that looks like a jewel in the remnants of the wine, so it doesn't point extra fingers at Sansa..... just seems like an assassination plot should have as few moving parts as possible...
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Also Ingrid dies next... I'm calling it now...
she'll be missed.
Because getting caught with a vial of poison is much tougher to explain than a necklace or a piece of broken jewelry. Also, if the crystal doesn't completely dissolve then Sansa and Tyrion definitely take the fall once someone realizes it came from her necklace. This allows the actual perpatrators to walk about scott free.
Remember:
Remember:
Don't forget, having Sansa take the fall was part of the plan. Once the killer is found, they'll stop looking for the others. If Sansa hasn't disappeared, she would have come under suspicion and the hairnet with a missing stone would have been found.
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