***Official Game of Thrones: Season 4 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***

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Barnacle
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11:59a, 5/8/14
AG
quote:
What do we know about the Old Gods?

We already know that the Seven and hundreds of gods are part of the multifaced god.

But the old gods never really fit into those personalities. If they are just a passive aspect of the one true god.

I have understood that R'hllor (fire) and the Great Other (ice) are both aspects of the one-true god. But the old gods, Im not certain are part of the Braavosi one-god. They seem like a different type of magic as the R'hllor. Warging, greenseeing, extended life (as a tree) is not something that is evil or good.


My take on the gods is that humans are fallible and too small to comprehend everything there is to know about the gods. I think each of the religions has hooked into an aspect of the true gods but not comprehensively.

In the same way that Melisandre says that what she sees in the flames never lie but it's merely the interpreter who misinterprets the true meaning, so do the worshipers of the various gods have limited understanding which can be clouded by their fallibility. After reading that, I guess I'm saying it might be that GRRM may be approaching the Gods in an agnostic manner while his characters are locked into specific religions.
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redline248
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12:15p, 5/8/14
AG
quote:
quote:
For discussion's sake, why should we be any more willing to believe that Rhllor/Great Other are any more real than the 7 or Old gods or anyone else's interpretation of religion?
Well Mel/Thoros make miracles happen because of the Lord of Light. We know some dark entity powers the wights, something reanimates corpses.

The Seven seem to made up. They have no power.


I agree, but perhaps there hasn't been anyone show up with power from the 7 yet. That still doesn't explain the powers of Bran, Jojen or the CotF (unless we assume that comes from the great other) or any of the other various magic shown throughout the books. Perhaps all the magic is just magic and not derived from any gods, even Thoros and Mel.
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Barnacle
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12:23p, 5/8/14
AG
Why do the religions have to be mutually exclusive?
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Thomas Ford 91
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4:07p, 5/8/14
AG
I've always considered the various religions to be symbolic of real religions. Which is the one true religion isn't important to the story.


The Seven = Roman/Greek religions
Old Gods - Wiccan / Earth Worship
R'hllor - Christianity/Islam/Judaism
Drowned God - cults
Multi Faced God - Far Eastern religions
Dothraki Gods - Wiccan / Earth Worship

Another issue - Am I right when I say that the Others/WW can't cross the Wall? I seem to recall that the Wall contains deep and powerful spells that the Others/WW can't cross.

To me, that makes the Horn on the proposed cover of TWoW important. And, the tidbit in ADwD about the WW overtaking those ships sent to rescue those people north of the Wall suggest to me they might try to go around.
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MSCAg
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5:08p, 5/8/14
AG
I would think the Drowned god at least draws from Jesus and Dionysus from the idea of life after death, baptism, etc.


Yeah, we know from Coldhand that the well protects at least from the dead crossing it, but not sure if that applies to the Others. But yeah, it seems like the Horn is going to be critical.

[This message has been edited by MSCAg (edited 5/8/2014 4:10p).]
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redline248
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5:30p, 5/8/14
AG
quote:
Why do the religions have to be mutually exclusive?


They don't have to be, and neither do they have to be parts of one. Not do they have to be real. That's my point, we don't know, and probably never will.
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aggie93
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5:33p, 5/8/14
AG
Here is what the wiki says:

quote:
Unlike Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings, the novels address religion in some detail, and portray several competing religions. More than any other novel in the series, A Dance with Dragons explores the different religions of Westeros and Essos. Each of the religions reflects its culture's temperament. Martin based the series' faiths on real religions, tweaking or expanding them a little. However, no religion is presented as the true faith, although there are eerie displays of power on many sides, nor do any have a monopoly on virtue.

Known Influences:

The old gods seem like a sort of peaceful animistic religion.
The Seven, bears some distinct similarities to the Catholic church, in structure and organization. The seven is an analog of the Trinity, that has seven gods in one rather than three (the Father, Warrior, Smith, Maid, Mother, Crone, and Stranger ), and complete with monastic orders, dormant military orders(Faith Militant), and a Pope/College of Cardinals (High Septon/Most Devout).
R'hllor, is similar in many ways to Zoroastrianism, with a strong dualism between the Lord of Light and the Nameless Other of Darkness, apocalyptic theology, and religious practice that is strongly intertwined with the use and symbiology of fire.

Virtually every other religion are examples of polytheism, where people in the attempt to understand nature gave forces of nature human shapes.
Storm God and the Drowned God could be related to Norse mythology, encouraging the lifestyle of raiding and reaving just as the religion of the Vikings did.
Mother Rhoyne religion is polytheistic worshipping the Rhoyne and many lesser river-dwelling deities such as the Old Man of the River, a turtle-god. It's may also be inspired by the real-life Roma, to a degree
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SlimM
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5:51p, 5/8/14
AG
quote:
I've read all the books but I don't know anything about half of the stuff on this thread the last 3 pages...


Same here.
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hunter2012
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5:57p, 5/8/14
AG
There's the book readers and then there's book readers that argue about religion in said books. Huge difference...
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The Debt
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6:18p, 5/8/14
I don't understand how you read a book that deals with religious motivations of characters and supernatural miracles attributed to those religions and then ignore the religions as part of the plot.
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redline248
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6:36p, 5/8/14
AG
Yep, it's pretty significant.
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Zeke1995
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6:39p, 5/8/14
AG
The Gospel According to Hodor figures significantly in TWOW.
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AgDev01
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6:52p, 5/8/14
AG


[This message has been edited by AgDev01 (edited 5/8/2014 5:54p).]
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redline248
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7:06p, 5/8/14
AG
I wonder if Bran can understand Hodor's thoughts or if it's a jumble of hodor.
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Al Bula
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7:11p, 5/8/14
AG
I thought it was pretty obvious the faith of the seven was basically Catholicism but with seven aspects instead of three.
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The Debt
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10:52p, 5/8/14
quote:
I wonder if Bran can understand Hodor's thoughts or if it's a jumble of hodor.

When you warg, do you have full access to their brain? Memories, current thoughts etc?
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redline248
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11:12p, 5/8/14
AG
Dunno
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mid90
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11:28p, 5/8/14
AG
quote:
I wonder if Bran can understand Hodor's thoughts or if it's a jumble of hodor.


My understanding is that he can understand Hodor's feelings, but not really communicate with him. IDK tho.
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Greeze06
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12:04a, 5/9/14
AG
This thread has gotten we todd it.
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Southlake
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12:13a, 5/9/14
Bookmark
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BillOnCapitolHill
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12:10p, 5/10/14
Ttt for the start of the trial
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ellebee
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2:09p, 5/10/14
quote:
This thread has gotten we todd it.


Sofa king.
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Kampfers
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9:53p, 5/11/14
AG
Holy ****. They absolutely nailed that last scene.
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HummingbirdSaltalamacchia
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9:56p, 5/11/14
AG
Agreed. That last scene was fantastic!
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redbaron788
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9:58p, 5/11/14
AG
Yes, excellent
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Baskin
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10:32p, 5/11/14
AG
Bravo.

Also, apparently Oberyn has banged an unsullied...
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Elliot P. Campbell
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10:37p, 5/11/14
AG
titan of braavos
badass davos monologue
awesome dragon cgi
more awesome reek/ramsay dynamic
amazing performances from all four lannisters
dinklage putting everyone else to shame at the end

fan-****ing-tastic episode
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mazzag
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10:44p, 5/11/14
AG
quote:
titan of braavos
badass davos monologue
awesome dragon cgi
more awesome reek/ramsay dynamic
amazing performances from all four lannisters


fan-****ing-tastic episode


I had completely forgotten all those other scenes happened. Because of this one.

quote:
dinklage putting everyone else to shame at the end
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RedbeardAG
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10:46p, 5/11/14
AG
Why didn't they have the dragon kill the shepherd girl?

Also...**** yeah peter dinklage. Got a justice boner incoming.
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AggieSouth06
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10:56p, 5/11/14
quote:
Why didn't they have the dragon kill the shepherd girl?


Context. How would that scene be dramatic if there wasn't a precedent for her paying for the goats nonchalantly?
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AgLaw
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11:12p, 5/11/14
AG
Dinklage is amazing.
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redline248
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12:02a, 5/12/14
AG
Great episode
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G Martin 87
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12:08a, 5/12/14
AG
quote:
I am gonna be pissed when this whole series ends with an autistic kid staring at a snow globe.

Nice. "Come on, Tommen, let's wash our hands."

[This message has been edited by G Martin 87 (edited 5/11/2014 11:15p).]
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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1:18a, 5/12/14
Dinklage could win a second Emmy/GG based on that scene alone. He really did some amazing facial things to make himself appear "monstrous". Loved that they kept the Shae stuff intact, was worried they might write it differently.

Really enjoyed Davos' earnestness; The Theon rescue was a little odd - we take a boat from Pyke to wherever, then turn around because they're going to let a dog out? Aren't we wearing armor?

Loved that Ramsay fought shirtless - jesus that actor has captured his insanity to a tee.

Loved that my wife and I were both tensed up for the whole bath scene, expecting Ramsay to do something terrible to Reek.

Amazing episode considering there was zero Arya, zero Hound, zero Jon Snow.

Really hope they keep the same dynamic in the show when Oberyn declares for Tyrion and you see the sudden fear in Cersei's eyes.
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BillOnCapitolHill
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1:30a, 5/12/14
I thought Ramsay would hurt Theon for trying to get the smell (Reek) off him by accepting the bath.
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