I know it's moot, I was just wondering 'out loud'
***Official Game of Thrones: Season 4 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***
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Last: 10 yr ago by Twelfthman
Not just moot, Kingsmoot. TOPICAL!
I should stop drinking on weeknights.
I should stop drinking on weeknights.
I dont think LF path to power is premeditated. He didnt make Joffrey attempt to assassinate Bran. He didnt make Joffrey whack Neds head off. He didnt make Renly dead so he could force a Tyrell/Lannister alliance.
Further, LF choosing to off Joff was even a decision to further himself. Just being an agent of chaos, as the Joker would say.
Back to the Eyrie, if Tyrion had died back then: the war erupts immediately. To keep Robert from siding with Ned, Cersei and Pycelle kill him. Joffrey ascends. Stannis, Renly, Dragonstone and the Stormlands side with the Lannisters (Melisandre would splinter the Baratheons from within). The Eyrie, the North, the Riverlands come together. Lady Olyena might go either way. The Martell uncle will sit and wait like always...
With that force, Robb or Ned could take Casterly Rock. If Ned is in charge, Robb will marry the Frey. Sansa or Arya would be betrothed to Robyn. I doubt Ned would release Theon.
Ew...if Cercie/Joff would still dismiss Barristan what are the chances he joins Ned?
Now imagine what LF would do. He would remain in KL as Master of Coin, but as an agent of chaos he gives the North the secret and a smoking gun that Joffrey is born of incest. It cripples the Lannisters, sends Stannis burning...and soldiers burning too
Geez...
Further, LF choosing to off Joff was even a decision to further himself. Just being an agent of chaos, as the Joker would say.
Back to the Eyrie, if Tyrion had died back then: the war erupts immediately. To keep Robert from siding with Ned, Cersei and Pycelle kill him. Joffrey ascends. Stannis, Renly, Dragonstone and the Stormlands side with the Lannisters (Melisandre would splinter the Baratheons from within). The Eyrie, the North, the Riverlands come together. Lady Olyena might go either way. The Martell uncle will sit and wait like always...
With that force, Robb or Ned could take Casterly Rock. If Ned is in charge, Robb will marry the Frey. Sansa or Arya would be betrothed to Robyn. I doubt Ned would release Theon.
Ew...if Cercie/Joff would still dismiss Barristan what are the chances he joins Ned?
Now imagine what LF would do. He would remain in KL as Master of Coin, but as an agent of chaos he gives the North the secret and a smoking gun that Joffrey is born of incest. It cripples the Lannisters, sends Stannis burning...and soldiers burning too
Geez...
If Ned meets with Balon, an alliance is discussed, Ned offers Theon. Balon scoffs claiming he did not pay the iron price to win his son back. Ned offers him a trial by combat and personally takes on a champion of Pyke.
Ned wins. Balon soon after dies by his brother's hand.
Ned wins. Balon soon after dies by his brother's hand.
quote:
Back to the Eyrie, if Tyrion had died back then: the war erupts immediately. To keep Robert from siding with Ned, Cersei and Pycelle kill him. Joffrey ascends. Stannis, Renly, Dragonstone and the Stormlands side with the Lannisters (Melisandre would splinter the Baratheons from within). The Eyrie, the North, the Riverlands come together. Lady Olyena might go either way. The Martell uncle will sit and wait like always...
Why would Stannis side with the Lannisters? He still has every reason not to: He already believed Joffrey to be a *******, and his brother was killed. He would still stake his own claim to the throne.
"I dont think LF path to power is premeditated. He didnt make Joffrey attempt to assassinate Bran. He didnt make Joffrey whack Neds head off. He didnt make Renly dead so he could force a Tyrell/Lannister alliance."
Yeah, but there is no Joff or Renly without Jon Arryn dying, right?
Yeah, but there is no Joff or Renly without Jon Arryn dying, right?
quote:quote:
Back to the Eyrie, if Tyrion had died back then: the war erupts immediately. To keep Robert from siding with Ned, Cersei and Pycelle kill him. Joffrey ascends. Stannis, Renly, Dragonstone and the Stormlands side with the Lannisters (Melisandre would splinter the Baratheons from within). The Eyrie, the North, the Riverlands come together. Lady Olyena might go either way. The Martell uncle will sit and wait like always...
Why would Stannis side with the Lannisters? He still has every reason not to: He already believed Joffrey to be a *******, and his brother was killed. He would still stake his own claim to the throne.
Yeah and Renly had no love for the Lannisters either. You saw how quickly he stole off and named himself king. If everything played out the same way except for Renly declaring himself and Ned being killed, then it would basically be all of Westeros versus the Lannisters. They wouldn't have standed a chance.
Yep, with Renly alive the Tyrells definitely go with the Stormlands and there is no way Renly or Stannis side with the Lannisters. The big key would be if Ned could get our of KL alive, if he does then the Lannisters are doomed. You would have the North, the Eyrie, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and the Tyrells all against the Lannisters with the Iron Islands and Dorne staying out of it.
It took so many mistakes by Robb/Cat/Ned to screw things up.
LF is always about the chaos and getting everyone to war with each other until they are so weak he can take over. It was less about this alliance or that or this action or that it was about continuing to get all the sides fighting with each other and being of value to all and an enemy to none.
It took so many mistakes by Robb/Cat/Ned to screw things up.
LF is always about the chaos and getting everyone to war with each other until they are so weak he can take over. It was less about this alliance or that or this action or that it was about continuing to get all the sides fighting with each other and being of value to all and an enemy to none.
Just because Renly is pumping Loras, it doesnt mean Lady Olynna is gonna make the decision to side with the Stormlands again.
You folks forget Tyrion's trial was like ep4. Far before Ned figured out the incest or before he sent the his findings to Stannis. The crown is still officially Baratheon with no one outside of the small council suspecting it.
You folks forget Tyrion's trial was like ep4. Far before Ned figured out the incest or before he sent the his findings to Stannis. The crown is still officially Baratheon with no one outside of the small council suspecting it.
quote:
You folks forget Tyrion's trial was like ep4. Far before Ned figured out the incest or before he sent the his findings to Stannis. The crown is still officially Baratheon with no one outside of the small council suspecting it.
Stannis had been in discussions with Jon Arryn before he died and then fled the capital when he was poisoned. It seems to me that Stannis already knew and was regrouping where it was safe.
quote:
The big key would be if Ned could get our of KL alive, if he does then the Lannisters are doomed. You would have the North, the Eyrie, the Riverlands, the Stormlands, and the Tyrells all against the Lannisters with the Iron Islands and Dorne staying out of it.
The other big thing that was needed to combat the Lannisters was for Stannis and Renly to stand united.
In the books, Ned is following in the tracks of Stannis and Jon Arryn who have already figured out that the Cersei's children aren't Robert's. In the show, that's not clear, and we only see Stannis get involved after Ned sends him a letter informing him what he found out after Robert died.
Stannis fled not because Jon dies but because he was slighted by Robert because he chose Ned as the next Hand.
Doesn't change the fact that he knew about the blonde headed b@stards before Ned.
In the books the letter to Stannis from Ned never arrives either.
As for the Tyrells, it is highly unlikely they would want to stand alone with the Lannisters against the combined North, Stormlands, Riverlands, and Eyrie. They likely join Renly/Stannis but otherwise they just sit out.
As for Stannis, had it not been for the shadow baby he would have been toast.
The key to the trial would have been the Eyrie joining the North and Riverlands, if that happens everything is different. The Vale is well populated with a large Host and nearly impossible to attack. If you had the Eyrie/Stormlands attacking KL while Robb was keeping the Lannisters occupied in the West it would be game over.
As for the Tyrells, it is highly unlikely they would want to stand alone with the Lannisters against the combined North, Stormlands, Riverlands, and Eyrie. They likely join Renly/Stannis but otherwise they just sit out.
As for Stannis, had it not been for the shadow baby he would have been toast.
The key to the trial would have been the Eyrie joining the North and Riverlands, if that happens everything is different. The Vale is well populated with a large Host and nearly impossible to attack. If you had the Eyrie/Stormlands attacking KL while Robb was keeping the Lannisters occupied in the West it would be game over.
End of the day, if Bran Stark wasn't such a busy body climbing all over the damn place, everyone we like would still be alive.
LF probably would have found some other way to start a war.
Cersi was still trying to kill Robert, LF had convinced Lysa to kill Aaryn and write the letter saying it was the Lannisters.
My guess is at some point he'd have helped ensure Robert dies, let Stannis and Ned know about the *******s, and then it would go from there. Stannis is too stubborn and Ned to honorable, it would have ensured war between them.
Bran's "fall" just let LF speed things up.
Cersi was still trying to kill Robert, LF had convinced Lysa to kill Aaryn and write the letter saying it was the Lannisters.
My guess is at some point he'd have helped ensure Robert dies, let Stannis and Ned know about the *******s, and then it would go from there. Stannis is too stubborn and Ned to honorable, it would have ensured war between them.
Bran's "fall" just let LF speed things up.
Is this quote in the book from LF
"Given the opportunity what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?"
I dont think GRRM ever hints at LF's motivations, but it seems like he wants to kill the Freys, if not the Lannisters
"Given the opportunity what do we do to those who hurt the ones we love?"
I dont think GRRM ever hints at LF's motivations, but it seems like he wants to kill the Freys, if not the Lannisters
LF vs the Freys would be so satisfying
On the one hand, if he reveals Sansa he could probably get the Vale to rally to attack the Freys. On the other hand, I think he loves himself the most and the Freys sort of helped him achieve another step up the ladder.
quote:When does LF openly advance his cause? Its always behind the scenes. Always. Plus his strategy is seeing everyone lose men, gold, and status, why gamble all three of his on a battlefield?
he could probably get the Vale to rally to attack the Freys.
IIRC he says to Sansa the trick is getting people to make the moves you want them to make while they convince themselves it was their idea. (Mockingjay sigil)
quote:Why should he feel a special place in his heart for a rung on a ladder he steps on? By your logic he should love Joffrey & the Lannisters for making him Lord of Harrenhall; he so loved Joffrey.
On the other hand, I think he loves himself the most and the Freys sort of helped him achieve another step up the ladder.
If only he had such love for Cersei.
He loved Cat. I truly think he will enact some revenge on the Freys, in his own way. He loves her, but he isn't an impassioned fool (cough Ned's brother). We will deal with the Freys in his own time - recognizing they they are stretching their forces by helping Bolton in the North and helping the Lannisters clean up the last of the Riverrun hold outs, as well has having to now occupy a castle where most of the population hates them.
I always felt LF knew of the Bolton/Frey/Lannister alliance and let is play out because the goal was to have them kill Robb, hold her hostage, and he (LF) would broker her release.
Instead, and I believe Tywin even mentioned this, the moron Freys blew it and killed her and then took even further by dumping her body in the river naked.
[This message has been edited by MSCAg (edited 5/16/2014 2:28p).]
I always felt LF knew of the Bolton/Frey/Lannister alliance and let is play out because the goal was to have them kill Robb, hold her hostage, and he (LF) would broker her release.
Instead, and I believe Tywin even mentioned this, the moron Freys blew it and killed her and then took even further by dumping her body in the river naked.
[This message has been edited by MSCAg (edited 5/16/2014 2:28p).]
It wouldn't be LF's style to openly attack the Freys. What he would do is get someone else to do it. Even then, revenge against the Freys is a sidebar and not worth risking the bigger prize for him.
One character I am very interested to see what has happened to is Blackfish. He could be back in the Eyrie getting support from LF. It would also be awesome if he got in with Lady Stoneheart and the BWB. He's a serious wildcard that will re-emerge.
One character I am very interested to see what has happened to is Blackfish. He could be back in the Eyrie getting support from LF. It would also be awesome if he got in with Lady Stoneheart and the BWB. He's a serious wildcard that will re-emerge.
Msc, I always felt the idea was to kill Robb, Jeyne westerling, and as many soldiers as possible. All the nobility you want to hold hostage.
Littlefinger did love Cat. He learned to play behind the scenes after losing a duel to Brandon Stark over Cat. He also has some fascination with Sansa, the closest remaining link to Cat.
I would love to see LF kill the Freys and I do think it is plausible based on his feelings for Cat, the only other person he cares about besides himself. However, he would never do it with his own army. He would maneuver them into a hopeless position where death was certain.
I would love to see LF kill the Freys and I do think it is plausible based on his feelings for Cat, the only other person he cares about besides himself. However, he would never do it with his own army. He would maneuver them into a hopeless position where death was certain.
What are the odds LF lays Sansa in show? Not this episode but in general
quote:
What are the odds LF lays Sansa in show? Not this episode but in general
I'd say pretty low at least for now. The kiss can easily be forgotten or gotten past. Deflowering her is another story. In seasons to come though, who knows.
I feel like Sansa (at least by the end of her last chapter) has progressed enough that if LF tried that she'd stick a knife in his throat.
My happiness from the moon door has now faded into sadness that we have to wait two weeks
decent episode, last sequences (oberyn/tyrion and the eyrie) were great but why did they have to change "only Cat" to "your sister"
also looks like there's finally, finally some wildling attacks next episode. they've been building up this clash for almost 3 seasons now, i wanna see some badassery
also looks like there's finally, finally some wildling attacks next episode. they've been building up this clash for almost 3 seasons now, i wanna see some badassery
Speaking of that wildling attack...do we assume Gilly escapes back to the wall?
Also, the poor saps on the non-spoiler thread:
Also, the poor saps on the non-spoiler thread:
quote:
Stan Crowch
posted 8:56p, 05/18/14
prince oberon is going to kill it next week!
Also, so much for Biter and Rorge. That was awesome when Arya stabbed him.
Oberyrn needs to lose. Tyrion needs to be sprang by Varys, not the Crown, in order to kill Tywin and Shae.
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