I'll be very sad if he doesn't finish the books.

Where are we getting this list of kings of the north?

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/King_in_the_North

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No precise lineage of Kings in the North is known, but the individuals listed below are supposed to be in rough chronological order.

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While I think the idea of 13 KoTN is cool, I'm pretty sure Rob's body didn't make it North of the Wall.

Solid card!

I have no problem with the show revealing things that the books haven't quite gotten to. As I always point out to my friends, the show HAS to change certain things to keep them in the audiences' minds. For example, Theon Greyjoy disappeared for 2 whole books. That would equate to around 3 years for a TV audience. So, we get a season of torture scenes... but now we're still 2 years ahead of schedule in his story. So they intertwine it with things like Jon and Bran.

Think about it: when Tyrion escapes at the end of the season, it probably won't take him 10 episodes to cross the sea. So, sometime in season 4 or 5 his story will likely advance beyond A Dance With Dragons. (Probably mid-5)

Likewise, Bran is roughly halfway through ADWD right now. Either they have to (1) slow down his story drastically - as if it wasn't boring enough already - (2) already bring him past the content revealed in ADWD, or (3) add new content, such as the events at Crasters Keep.

Book readers may complain at answers 2 and 3, but answer 1 isn't much of an option either. So, this is what we get.

Just enjoy the ride. Don't watch if you don't want to know anything that may or may not appear in the next book. It's inevitable that some character arcs overtake their book counterparts, IMO.

[This message has been edited by rhutton125 (edited 4/28/2014 7:48p).]

I haven't seen it anywhere but speculation that the Night King was a Stark, that said it wouldn't surprise me. The NW was basically "spare heir" storage for the Starks and no doubt a ton of LC's were Starks.

I'm more confused about the Others than ever.

Tyrion actually has the most ACTUAL story in ADWD. Arriving in Pentos, joining Aegon and Connington, taking the river through the plaguelands, getting captured by Jorah, meeting Penny, all three getting captured by slavers, joining the Golden company...

They'll have to squeeze a lot into season 5 for Tyrion. It's all the other stories that drag incessantly that they'll have to "spice up"... Dany, Jon, Bran. Hell, Jaime will spend season 5 riding around the Riverlands as a hostage negotiator. They have to take some license to keep things interesting.

Random thing I thought of...is Balon supposed to be dead by now? And also what happened to the whole thing with Yara coming to rescue Theon?

All unknown.


Let's face it, even with the final scene we have no idea what the others are. I don't care what anyone else says or theorizes, they are f_cking evil and need to burn.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 4/28/2014 8:38p).]

ASOS Bran Ch 56:

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As the sun began to set the shadows of the towers lengthened and the wind blew harder, sending gusts of dry dead leaves rattling through the yards. The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well.

He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden.

“Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.”

No, Bran thought, but he walked in this castle, where we’ll sleep tonight. He did not like that notion very much at all. Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it’s getting dark.

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[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 4/28/2014 8:44p).]

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with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will.

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Almost like turning them.

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Night’s King was only a man by light of day, Old Nan would always say, but the night was his to rule. And it’s getting dark.

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Winter is coming.

Craster's lineage is unknown. His father was of the NW, his mother a wildling. For some reason he neutral to the NWs, what if he is part Stark? Like Neds second cousin.

No one knows why he sacrifices to the Others or how he came to doing it.

Really missed all that in reading the books. I just thought put the male babies out to die so no competition for all his wives/daughters/granddaughters.

No, he somehow made a deal with the others.

The nights king 'turning' his brothers would imply they were all others too, but I don't get the sense that was the case.

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No, he somehow made a deal with the others.

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But how does he know to do so? They dont seem like negotiators. Thats why I think there is an understood magic that is forbidden to the north

I have no idea, which is why I said somehow. Maybe he knew the story of the night king. If old Nan knows the stories, who's to say old wildling women didn't know it too. I'm not sure it matters how he came to that arrangement.

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Its gonna blow everyone's mind when it is shown that those 13 are the 13 Kings of the North from Ice Eyes to Robb.

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That would be sweet. Maybe they were able to duck tape his head on.

To toss a stick at the poor dead horse, I found this episode bittersweet because it, to me, was the line of demarcation between the books and show. Going forward, the show is telling it's own story, and clearly, now, the books won't be finished. I know that - I've known it ever since the series was announced, because Martin doesn't write fast enough - but I didn't really want to believe it because I love the books. I love the characters. I first read a Game of Thrones in 1998 and still now, on my 5th or 6th re-reads, the characters and the story get in my head every time.

But it's done. It's not just that there isn't enough time for Martin to finish. I don't think he wants to. I've been reading his blog for years. He loves, loves, loves the world of ASOIAF. He loves the characters. He loves the HBO show, the legends, the calendars, the comic books, the maps, Dunk & Egg, and going to cons and talking about his story. What he doesn't love is actually sitting down and pounding out 20+ pages a day, day in and day out, until the story is done. He hates writing it and has been honest about hating it. He loves having written, sure, but he's older, he has a lot of interests, he doesn't need the money and he's tired of writing the books. Not the story itself, but the day in, day out of writing it.

And now he has an opportunity that very few authors get, to let someone else tell his story, but with his hand there to shape it, to tell the tale he wants. To ret-con everything that needs ret-conning, to cut out the stuff that turned out to not be necessary, and to see it happen while he's alive and able to enjoy it (and bask in the glory of it). GRRM is actually a long-time screenwriter, as well as an author. He could take on screenwriting duties for several episodes a season, instead of just one, and wrap this up. He's said many times that he loves how the show is going and the direction the writers are taking it in. For every criticism he gets for not finishing the books, he'll get twice as much love for the series, and winning Emmys makes up for missing out on a few Hugos.

And then he could spend his time filling in a few holes. Writing Dunk & Egg novellas. Maybe writing a novella about the Defiance of Duskendale, or about the Tourney at Harrenhall. Enjoying the world he created, and having the monkey - the gorilla - of finishing the books off his back.

Oh well. At least we get to see the Night's King.

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Think about it: when Tyrion escapes at the end of the season, it probably won't take him 10 episodes to cross the sea. So, sometime in season 4 or 5 his story will likely advance beyond A Dance With Dragons. (Probably mid-5)

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This seems highly implausible. They need to cover a crap ton of story with Tyrion before he gets past where he is in ADWD.

jenn96 with a perfect summation of where I am at with it and how I think it will unfold.



[This message has been edited by Urban Ag (edited 4/29/2014 1:40a).]

Jenn, you think he'll finish WoW though, right? So (barring untimely death of course), why would he stop when he is SO close to finishing his epic masterpiece? If I knew I just had one more book to go, I wouldn't want to leave it unfinished...no matter how burnt out I was!

(Even if that meant shortening aDoS considerably!)

Every interview he has given lately talks about how his priority is WOW and getting it done. I just can't see him stopping with 1 book to go, if he never finishes the series he leaves so much on the table in terms of his legacy. He finishes and then he is right there with Tolkien and certainly is the greatest fantasy writer since Tolkien. I think that matters to him.

He also has stated lately that the writing is coming easier for him and he is doing fewer re-writes and edits than his last couple of books. I think he sees the end and will want to gut through it. As much as he could enjoy life now if he does finish then he will truly be at peace, otherwise he will always have people asking him when he will finish or why he won't finish for the rest of his life.

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3) they are Starks. Kings of the North. Taken from their crypts and given to the Ice-God.

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When would this have happened?


I do think he'll get the books done. I know he took five years, but I think he wrote a lot past DanceWDragons. I assume he basically has the overall story arc done. But we'll see.

It would be epic sadness if the books aren't finished. The TV show has been great, but it pales in comparison to the books.

[This message has been edited by MSCAg (edited 4/29/2014 9:10a).]

Good point on him writing ahead. The new WOW chapter he released he said he wrote 10 years ago.

BTW, love the latest from the Non Spoiler thread:

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I hope we get to see Dany at least cross the ocean this season. Seems like she's made her point in Essos. Previews for next week give us a teaser that she is turning her attention towards KL. I'm ready for her and her dragons to kick some ass in Westeros.

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3) they are Starks. Kings of the North. Taken from their crypts and given to the Ice-God.

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When would this have happened?

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I'm not saying I buy into this theory yet, but I did just reread in GoT, that Jon had a dream he was searching for Ned in the crypts when the vaults started to open and the dead kings came stumbling from their graves. It could have just been a dream, but so many dreams in the story are more than that. It's the chapter right after Sansa writes letters to Robb, Cat, Lysa, & Hoster Tully telling them that Ned's a traitor.

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When would this have happened?

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How about when Brandon Ice Eyes was king? If he was half-Other he would have means, motive, and opportunity.

Dog, I thought about that dream too, but I just can't see the others (who seek to destroy life in the world) being Starks. A Stark built the wall, after all, and it would require some serious evil magic to bend all the dead Starks to evil, based on what we know of them in life.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 4/29/2014 10:21a).]

http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

Really like this theory.

To go back - if he does finish the series, it will be for pride. And pride is significant; you can't be the American Tolkien if you never finish your magnum opus. And yes, I know he says he's writing better than ever and feels it all coming together. I do think WOW will be published; a lot of it is obviously written and he can still - barely - "beat" the series, although from what we saw last night that's not really the point anymore, since there are going to be a LOT of differences.

I just don't think he'll spend another 5 (or 3, or 6) years writing a story that has already been concluded onscreen. Sure, many of the paths to get there will have changed, but the big stuff - what the dragons do, what the Others do, and what ultimately happens to Sansa, Trion, Dany, Jon - will already be known. Don't get me wrong, I still want to read it even if I know how it ends, but he probably won't want to write it. The one intriguing possibility is that he uses the books to create his own alternate ending, and changes up the final resolution so that it's a surprise. The downside of that is that since D&D have his original ending, and will use it for the series, any "alternate ending" might just suck.

Anyway, I hope I'm wrong. I guess I've read too many of Martin's interviews and blog posts where he talks about how well the writing is going and how he's finally past the humps. And then he posts about how he won't be able to finish this year because he has 4 cons, and can't write on the road. And a new Wild Card book coming out. Oh, and it's football season. After 10+ years, the one thing that is clear is that he really doesn't like the grind of writing the books.

I hope I'm wrong.

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Dog, I thought about that dream too, but I just can't see the others (who seek to destroy life in the world) being Starks. A Stark built the wall, after all, and it would require some serious evil magic to bend all the dead Starks to evil, based on what we know of them in life.

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Agreed. The only way I can see it fitting is if the Others aren't as evil as we think. Check out some of the theories that were just posted by Crystal Blue Meth. The only other thing could be that the Others simply have the magic to summon the dead even if they are unwilling.

I think what a lot of you are missing is that writers write. No matter how sensational his work looks on a TV screen, he'll never believe it's better than the books. Writers may enjoy the movie versions of their books, but they still created those characters, breathed life into them and are responsible for their ultimate fates.

He wants to write the details of every single scene, every single conversation, every single character's fate.
He wants to be the one to deliver the true moment of R+L=J and of Cersei Lannister looking up to the sky of King's Landing and realizing that the young queen she thought would be her doom was never Maragarey Tyrell, but in fact Danerys Targareyn, who just landed on the Red Keep on the back of a 60-foot long dragon.

HBO will do as it wants, but GGRM will finish those books or die trying because at heart he's a writer, and that's what they do.

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He wants to be the one to deliver the true moment of R+L=J and of Cersei Lannister looking up to the sky of King's Landing and realizing that the young queen she thought would be her doom was never Maragarey Tyrell, but in fact Danerys Targareyn, who just landed on the Red Keep on the back of a 60-foot long dragon.

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hahaha no. Danerys is gonna die. Sansa will be queen.

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Cersei Lannister looking up to the sky of King's Landing and realizing that the young queen she thought would be her doom was never Maragarey Tyrell, but in fact Danerys Targareyn, who just landed on the Red Keep on the back of a 60-foot long dragon.

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I can't wait for that scene!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

to see Cersei get eaten by a dragon.....gah!

So that entire theory hinges on the idea that a hero was a diplomat. Then you have to throw out Bran the Builder because Others built the Wall, which throws out the idea that the Wall is defensive despite numerous times we are told the wall has its own defenses.

^ When a tinfoil theory has that many ifs, parts of it could be true without the others being true...then again it could all be dead wrong.