oh he's gotta die - please in a painful way...at the hands of Theon woud be great but GRRM will probably have it be someone else anyway...maybe I'll guess the Red Priestess monster will do it for Stannis.

so I'll nominate Theon Greyjoy next.

I guess they should save that for next seasons gasps.


Ramsay lives. Stannis captures him and uses him to ransom roose

[This message has been edited by the debt (edited 6/4/2014 9:31a).]

Actually, would Stannis even recognize the legitimacy of Ramsay? I doubt it, since in his view a false king granted it.

Theon dies by way of Bran seeking revenge.


Dead or alive by the end: Tommen

as penance for his crimes against Winterfell, Theon becomes a resurrected Jon Snow's Reek for the rest of his hobble-footed days


next: Lollys Stokeworth

What do you mean a false king granted it? Roose named his heir. That doesn't take the iron throne to do it.

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The Debt
3511 posts, joined 06/18/2012


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What do you mean a false king granted it? Roose named his heir. That doesn't take the iron throne to do it.

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Incorrect. Roose can name the heir, but the King has to legitimize it. Thus the scroll from KL given to Ramsay in the book/show.

Yeah I thought it took a king to remove the bas-tard label.

Even if so, stannis would likely use ramsay to strike a deal for the north. As you recall, stannis isn't a huge fan of the starks for taking half HIS kingdom. His only interest in the starks (jon) was the political dance to isolate the Boltons. Since Jon told him no, stannis will have to win the north or strike a deal with roose.

Ehh, I think he needs the Starks (read: Stark loyalties) to take the North more than he needs the Bolton's. The only problem he had with the Starks arose when Robb was proclaimed King in the North, which wasn't even Robb's choice. The Mannis' main goal is to take his throne, so I agree the North is a must have. I'm just clinging faith to the mummer's farce being close to over in White Harbor, Stannis to recognize it and fund Frey Pit and Bolton heads for everyone.

Other than white harbor who is a stark loyalist with troops left? The karstarks? Robb beheaded their lord. The umbers maybe?

Any loyalist house is below 50% at this point.

Howland Reed is still intact, although we don't know jack squat about that group and his strength.

Which is why Jon, legitimized as a Stark by King Robb's decree sent to Howland Reed, will marry Dany and be supported by her army.

I would also think that the various "hill tribes" or whatever they are called would be Stark loyalists, despite being aligned with Stannis currently.

Smallfolk aren't soldiers or knights. To quote joffrey they haven't held as much as a pike their entire lives.

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His only interest in the starks (jon) was the political dance to isolate the Boltons. Since Jon told him no, stannis will have to win the north or strike a deal with roose.

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He doesn't need Jon. Davos should be arriving soon with Rickon.

Count me as a believer in the Great North Conspiracy... All the clues appear to be there...

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Smallfolk aren't soldiers or knights. To quote joffrey they haven't held as much as a pike their entire lives.

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Until GRRM pulls a massive twist ending and in ADOS the musket is invented by a maester and the small folk go on a rampage. The only thing that can stop them are Dany's dragons and the white walkers. We get a constitutional monarchy with Dany as queen, dragon cavalry does its thing, were all done in time for dinner.

I keep telling people, Game of Thrones is little more than a giant multimillion dollar advertisement for the 2nd Amendment.

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i go to the non spoiler thread and enjoy their reactions and theories.

I really don't understand the mindset of people who go there and say "I've read the books, but I won't spoil anything, but let me just tell you this ..."

It's a non-book reader thread, if they wanted to know, they'd go look it up themselves.

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Count me as a believer in the Great North Conspiracy... All the clues appear to be there...

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But not in the show. Before the Red Wedding, the show made it pretty obvious that Tywin was writing a lot of letters. You knew he was setting up something with all that planning.
The show could have had 3 minutes of Robb writing something official to provide the clue, but it didn't. Which means that letter he wrote in the book is not that important to the overall story.
There were Jeyne Westerling and Robb heir theories in the books too, until the show killed Talisa Maegyr.

correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a scene in the series where Robb writes a letter naming his heir? (not revealed of course)

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correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a scene in the series where Robb writes a letter naming his heir? (not revealed of course)

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Robb tells Cat he's going to legitimize Jon so he doesn't have the problem that Balon Greyjoy had. He then writes it out in front of the Greatjon and Edmure Tully and sends it off to Howland Reed with Mormont and Glover.

That entire scene was noticeably left out of the TV show.

I thought I remembered that scene being in the show, but can find no evidence of it.

edit: Also, remember Talisa told him she was pregnant, so that removed the need for him to name an heir, I think.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 6/4/2014 3:29p).]

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Count me as a believer in the Great North Conspiracy... All the clues appear to be there...

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I've never heard of this GNC. So, I'd like to offer thanks from the bottom of my heart for providing a distraction sure to kill my productivity for the rest of the day.

The Great North Conspiracy gains some real traction too...If you combine it with the theory about jon Snow actually already being royalty of Prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna stark..

Then he is already leginitmate heir to the throne of all seven kingdoms and a Stark as well although through Lyanna not through Ned.

My own personal theory is the great north conspiracy is a bit of a red herring...well the northmen may well believe it and act on it but it may end up that nobody can prove it or defend it....

I believe the ultimate reveal will be the R+L = Jon Snow one where he is proven to be the true heir and still someone the north would rally behind completely.

But with Ned dead, how would this ever become known....

Prince Rhaegar was defending Lyanna at Dorne with the Kingsguard...why was she so important is she was just some love interest and a mistress....no, she was with child and that was why she was so importnt...and Ned went there with his men killed the kingsguard and found Lyanna dying who made him make a promise...there had been plenty of time for her to have a child...and conveniently Ned soon showed up back at Winterfell with his "******* son"...but of course it was actually Lyanna and Rhaegars son that Lyanna made Ned promoise to raise as his own to protect him until the time was right and he could take the throne.

My theory is it is Benjen Stark who knows of this, Ned would have told someone, just in case he died...and Benjen has been missing since nearly day one of the series north of the wall.

That cannot be for no reason.

^ Howland Reed was also with Ned at the Tower of Joy in the south when they fought the kingsguard. They mention the Reed's being very loyal to the Starks (see Jojen and Meera with Bran). He has also been noticeably absent, so his appearance and knowledge is thought to be a coming gamechanger.

I've ALWAYS believed the endgame is

Jon Snow legitimized as Jon Stark/Targaryen with....Daenerys Targaryen as his queen....and Tyrion Lannister gets the Westerlands and Castlery Rock.

I don't know how Tyrion does it, in some way he ousts and tricks and overthrows all the other Lannisters and pledges loyalty to the Starks and/or Targaryens and ends up ruling his families traditional lands.

I don't know why, but I always felt this is a story about coming from the bottom, having nothing and rising to the top and those three started with NOTHING.

Jon Snow - a *******, outcast, vows to protect the realm, selfless, honorable family, great fighter and fearless, never surrenders.

Daenerys - started in Essos with nothing but a name, some dragon eggs and supreme faith in her bloodline, building an empire one battle at a time and learning it the hard way

Tyrion - an imp, an outcast of his own family, but smarter than the rest, a survivor and more knowledgeable in battle than many give him credit for and in royal history than almost anyone.

As for Targaryen marrying Targaryen in the case of the Rhaegar/Lyanna theory for Jon Snow - thats not uncommon for Targaryens - it was common practice in ancient Valaria. Heck Daenerys parents are brother and sister. And Viserys wished Daenerys had been born earlier and could have married Rhaegar instead of Elia Martell.

Yes Howland Reed was there also...I know....I forgot to mention...but I think thats will be another Red Herring...

let's be honest GRRM likes to pull the rug out from under readers....

So have them think someone alive knows...then kill him only to reveal another later...and likewise perhaps have the northmen believe Jon Snow is legitimized but never be able to prove it ...only later realize he is legitimiate in a completely differnet way.

Actually, I don't see how anyone could defend the position that Lyanna Stark was NOT willfully pregnant with Rhaegar's child and legally married to him. Mainly because Rhaegar wasn't at the TOJ when Ned arrived. There's no reason to have 3 of the KingsGuard there if not to protect a royal heir. There's no reason 3 of the KingsGuard would agree to stay away from their King during a rebellion unless they were protecting a royal heir. Further, that would need to be a legitimate heir. They won't leave the King or Prince's side to protect the mother of a b-stard.

That means Rhaegar and Lyanna are married. I don't know how that happened, but it must have.

While we're at it, I think the vision Dany has in the House of the Undying concerning Rhaegar and "the prince that was promised" was Lyanna's child. It was a vision of what could have been.

Is that child Jon? It certainly seems so, but I'm not 100% convinced. Somewhere in these books a minor Vale Lord tells Davos that Jon Snow is his grandson, and recounts a tale of Ned Stark impregnating his daughter during the Rebellion.

^could just be a misdirection or ruse in the form of protection of the truth...

that guy, Godric Borrell, is pretty loyal to Stark as well so he may very well have told that story on his behalf because when Ned sailed there to raise support for his banner atht eh time of Roberts Rebellion (prior to the events of the books) it is said that Godrics father did not turn him in to Aerys II as he could have for a reward but instead let him go and simply said if you lose then you were never here.

He relates this story to Davos and says the same to him but also tells the story of the fisherman and his daughter bringing Ned stark there and supposedly she was pregnant when he left and named the baby for Jon Arryn.

convenient story i think with no way to prove it - unnamed fisherman and daughter that nobody could hope to find now to corroborate, honoring Jon Arryn by naming the baby for him is a nice touch while you are in the Vale when supposedly this baby was conceived. And why would Ned Stark need a fisherman and his dauyghter to escort him or guide him? Sounds like the kind of story Ned might make up and ask someone to relate in order to protect the truth.

The timing is just too great with the events of Lyanna and Rhaegar plus the promise plus the way Ned always called him his blood but never his son. Etc.

[This message has been edited by mchensel (edited 6/4/2014 7:03p).]

Where does the wet nurse Willa come into play? Didn't one of the Brothers Without Banners that knew Arya tell her about being Jon's milk brother, or something?

Jon being Rhaegar's son makes the most sense, given all the clues. Don't forget the other vision Dany had of the blue flower in the Wall. Wasn't that flower Lyanna's favorite?

As far as Tyrions story. The show revealed that Tywin is broke, and he has been borrowing from the IB to not only fund the private war with the starks, but also to lend money to the Crown (Robert).

What are the chances Tyrion approaches the IB because the family that is in power of casterly rock is not making their payments. Lannisters must pay their debts, no?

I'm not sure the lords of Westeros are going to buy into Jon Snowgareyn just because some crannoman pops up and says he's Lyanna's boy from the way back.

However, if Aegon is really Aegon, and he, Jon Snowgareyn and Daenerys all show up in KL, who is #1 heir to the throne (assuming you don't use the dragons as leverage).

for the record, GRRM has stated that Howland Reed will "appear eventually" in the series. I imagine we will also get the full story of the Tower of Joy and a confirmation of R+L=J


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Where does the wet nurse Willa come into play?

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I think she's just one of the rumored mothers of Jon Snow (rumored by some in Westeros). Probably a red herring, but who knows.

One more thing, if R + L = J, then Jon Snow is merely Jon Sand. Rhaegar was legally married to Elia Martell. Unless KL is sacked and then Rhaegar calls in a septon.