***Official Game of Thrones: Season 4 Thread (BOOK READERS/SPOILERS ALLOWED)***

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jenn96
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12:10p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

Really like this theory.

Me too. The idea of "Others=Bad; Dragons=Good" is just too simplistic for this story. For lots of reasons. And I love the idea that the Stark House words - Winter is Coming - isn't a warning. It's a threat.
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mid90
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12:10p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/


Hmmm. Interesting theory. It's interesting to think that the Others might have a more complex motivation than just being evil. But I don't buy the idea of marriage pacts between the Others and humans...

Thoughts?
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BillOnCapitolHill
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12:20p, 4/29/14
Who is claiming Dragons are good? Dragons might be the just as bad as the Ice. Varys sees all magic as evil. And he is probably right.

I dont think that theory is near correct because it ignores important players like the CotF, Weirwoods. And somehow the Others made a deal with the First Men because of fire magic that lands on their shore 8000 years later. C'mon now.

[This message has been edited by BillOnCapitolHill (edited 4/29/2014 11:20a).]
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BillOnCapitolHill
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12:26p, 4/29/14
Also, that is a metric fcckton of exposition to put into a show and deliver it to audiences. Its already a stretch on paper...

Plus it takes away from the important thing: the Throne. We have 900 characters all positioning and shifting, but in the end the real story is about Jon brokering a peace and banging some ice princess? Seriously?
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jenn96
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12:30p, 4/29/14
AG
Lots of readers - and show watchers - feel like ultimately Dany and Co. (Jon, Tyrion, Aegon, pick your fave) will ride in on dragons to save the world from the Others. Ie, Dragons=Good, Others=Bad. Especially the more casual readers. I'm not saying they're right; I'm saying it's a common way to view things.

[This message has been edited by jenn96 (edited 4/29/2014 11:31a).]
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Kampfers
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12:39p, 4/29/14
AG
^^^ this

and it's far too simplistic for grrm imo
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mid90
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12:46p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
it's far too simplistic for grrm imo


Now I'm expecting all of the major factions to be forced by Jon Snow to sit down and have a peace summit, in which GRRM spends 30 chapters detailing the geopolitical climate.
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aggie93
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12:48p, 4/29/14
AG
jenn,

Agree with your synopsis on GRRM, I just think pride is enough to get him to finish. He's a social guy and he doesn't want every new person he meets for the rest of his life to ask "So when are you finishing the books?" He wants that adoration of being DONE. Lots can happen though to prevent it, primarily his health imo.

I also agree that the story of the Others is more complex than "dragons good, Others bad". That's just not Martin's style. Nothing is all good or all bad.
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jenn96
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12:58p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
quote:
it's far too simplistic for grrm imo


Now I'm expecting all of the major factions to be forced by Jon Snow to sit down and have a peace summit, in which GRRM spends 30 chapters detailing the geopolitical climate.

lol. Just be glad Lucas isn't directing or we would probably get this, along with Ollie the Other, a goofy sidekick.
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jenn96
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1:01p, 4/29/14
AG
And Aggie93, I SO hope your're right. I've never wanted to be wronger about anything.
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The Debt
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1:09p, 4/29/14
Bill, you are wrong about the significance of the nights king. They had a shot to have Bran and Co stay the night in the night fort and flesh out some of this history, but they skipped it. Which leads me to believe it's a history factoid, nothing more.

But all this nonsense about the Others being sympathetic or deeper is silly. Sure they are deeper than readers know, GRRM has given us nearly nothing about them except they nearly destroyed the world once. This idea that mystery translates to reasonable diplomatic beings is rtarded. They have been depicted by Martin as evil and then you second guess 5 books because "mystery".
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BillOnCapitolHill
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1:13p, 4/29/14
They still have plenty of time to explain the Night's King when Stannis and Jon are on the Wall. It doesnt have to be Bran telling the story.
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jenn96
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1:13p, 4/29/14
AG
Debt, I can think of a few other evil characters who turned out to be a little more nuanced once their motivations were understood. Not good, just nuanced. It's possible the Others are just icy Orcs with no motivations other than killing and death. I just don't think it's very likely.
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Elliot P. Campbell
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1:21p, 4/29/14
AG
debt, it's a matter of perspective. if we never got dany PoVs and just heard whispers and second-hand accounts of this conquerer who overturns social order and has dragons that terrorize civilians, she'd seem evil and scary too

not saying that the Others are exactly the same, but we at least know martin hates traditional good/evil so we can't conclude that they're just evil monsters
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The Debt
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1:25p, 4/29/14
The key difference is the word "characters". There are no WW characters.

Until 36 hours ago we thought they were a separate race. It seems they are human but serve a the great Others. He changes their physiology and their motivations.

I subscribe closer to the theory that they are enslaved by the Great Other. There is probably a good reason we save the parallels between Grey Worm and Craster's final son in an episode entitled breaker of chains.
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JJxvi
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1:50p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
Now I'm expecting all of the major factions to be forced by Jon Snow to sit down and have a peace summit, in which GRRM spends 30 chapters detailing the geopolitical climate.


To be fair to GRRM at least 25% of those 30 chapters will be completely necessary and fully detailed descriptions of the food served.

[This message has been edited by Jjxvi (edited 4/29/2014 12:50p).]
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SlimM
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4:41p, 4/29/14
AG
quote:
along with Ollie the Other, a goofy sidekick.


Hopefully with a voice like JarJar!!
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redline248
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7:30p, 4/29/14
AG
I'm with debt. There is zero chance a group that nearly destroyed the world are diplomatic and built the wall. To keep the fire out? Puh-lease. Did you forget dragons can f_cking fly?
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Thomas Ford 91
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8:55p, 4/29/14
AG
That reddit theory is built on incorrect assertions too many to refute. A lot of liberal progressive blah blah.

If you find good in the Others, carefully reread the prologue to GOT. GRRM pretty much lays it out right there.
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MSCAg
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9:55p, 4/29/14
AG
I think the Others and the Dragons are forces of nature. To describe them in terms of good/evil is an error. More like they do what they are meant to do.
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redline248
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9:59p, 4/29/14
AG
How are the others a force of nature when they have now been clearly shown to be a product of some magic transformation?

Also, the dragons are like any other animal. They can be somewhat tamed and will behave as trained to do in most cases. They aren't capable of being good or evil.

The others are completely different. They are actively trying to kill all the living. It's not a survival instinct or predator/prey relationship. It's genocide.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 4/29/2014 9:01p).]
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BillOnCapitolHill
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10:14p, 4/29/14
quote:
Also, the dragons are like any other animal.


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mid90
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1:35a, 4/30/14
AG
quote:
A lot of liberal progressive blah blah.


congratulations, you've managed to bring real world politics into a discussion about a fantasy world with magic and dragons
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MSCAg
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10:23a, 4/30/14
AG
quote:
How are the others a force of nature when they have now been clearly shown to be a product of some magic transformation?

Also, the dragons are like any other animal. They can be somewhat tamed and will behave as trained to do in most cases. They aren't capable of being good or evil.

The others are completely different. They are actively trying to kill all the living. It's not a survival instinct or predator/prey relationship. It's genocide.


Just speculating. I virus basically tries to inject its RNA into every cell it can. Maybe its better to describe the Others as a virus [queue Agent Smith/Matrix].

Are they evil? Maybe. Maybe they are just trying to spread.

In in the ASoFaI; I'd say magic is part of the forces of nature.
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MSCAg
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9:21a, 5/1/14
AG


Estimate of how Tyrion should have looked.

[yeah yeah - reddit]
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Barnacle
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12:25p, 5/2/14
AG
quote:
Also, the dragons are like any other animal.


The practitioners of spells and magic notice that their powers have increased after the dragons were born (the pyromancers' spells to create wild fire are way more productive than usual for instance). The stone (obsidian) candles in the Citadel start burning again mysteriously after they are born.

Dragons, in Martin's world, are connected to magic which makes them unlike other animals.
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redline248
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5:46p, 5/2/14
AG
I know all that, but so far they have behaved like wild animals with some training. No matter plan being enacted by the dragons like we see with the others, which was the point I was making.

[This message has been edited by redline248 (edited 5/2/2014 4:46p).]
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Shumba
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10:30p, 5/2/14
AG
If Bran becomes some super awesome warg by hanging out with cold hands and gaining some next level skills, couldn't he just take control of a dragon and use it to fight who or whatever he chooses? I always figured that was how the dragon(s) would be utilized.
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Southlake
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7:47p, 5/4/14
Bookmark.
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OnlyForNow
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10:02p, 5/4/14
AG
Good stuff. Ghost back with Jon. Bran didn't meet up with Jon. Almost thought LF was gonna push Lyssa in the scene they were alone
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montegobay
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10:03p, 5/4/14
Tonight kind of pushed me over the " I don't really care what happens anymore" threshold. HBO has clearly decided to drag out this plot as long as humanly possible. In season 4, we won't even make it to the end of book 3. I've lost interest. Pretty sorry I read the books.
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The Dog Lord
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10:26p, 5/4/14
AG
quote:
Tonight kind of pushed me over the " I don't really care what happens anymore" threshold. HBO has clearly decided to drag out this plot as long as humanly possible. In season 4, we won't even make it to the end of book 3. I've lost interest. Pretty sorry I read the books.

Which storyline do u mean? Everything is pretty on track or even somewhat ahead at this point. Some of these storylines drag on in the book too so...
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MW03
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10:27p, 5/4/14
AG
Seems like they're taking from all the books. Makes sense considering that a lot of what we read is happening concurrently.
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OnlyForNow
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10:30p, 5/4/14
AG
Drag on much longer in the book.
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pb488
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10:47p, 5/4/14
AG
biggest thing for me was tywin admitting the gold mines have run dry. makes the iron bank storyline MUCH more important and interesting.
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