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The whole using a gem from the hairnet theory has always seemed a little overly complex? Why not just carry the poison on yourself? The book never mentions them finding anything that looks like a jewel in the remnants of the wine, so it doesn't point extra fingers at Sansa..... just seems like an assassination plot should have as few moving parts as possible...

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I think the point is laying the blame on Dontos.

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Re: warging a dragon. It's unknown. Huge point of speculation on the fan boards. One theory (based on nothing but imagination) is that the destruction of Hardhome happened when someone tried to warg a dragon and drove it insane. No evidence but fun to talk about.

[This message has been edited by Jenn96 (edited 4/16/2014 1:37p).]

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But bran isn't your everyday warg. He is already the strongest warg and he is melding into the old gods as he becomes one with the weirwood.

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But bran isn't your everyday warg. He is already the strongest warg and he is melding into the old gods as he becomes one with the weirwood.

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Bran wouldn't be the "Stark" to warg with a Dragon.

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Bran wouldn't be the "Stark" to warg with a Dragon.

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Isn't Bran told that he will never walk again, but he will fly?

So checking out AWOIAF, I wanted to know what the relationship was between the children of the forest, humans, and Others.


Apparently there was a war (for 2000 years) between the CotF and the crannomen (First Men), but then a peace was struck for 4000 years...until the Others surfaced. At which time the CotF and crannomen came together. The CotF aided the "Last Hero" (presumably Azor Ahai) in the victory over the Others.

Now this was 8000 years prior to Aegon and his dragons. But its clear that the CotF and the old gods side with the humans. Now it is unclear how helpful they were, but one would assume since the CotF had warging ability and vision, that they would be used for controlling viscous beasts like Direwolves, Grumpkins, Snarks. ...Giants?....Dragons? Mammoths? Wyverns?

But after they defeated the Others the CotF would give the humans 100 obsidian daggers per year (they create them).

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Isn't Bran told that he will never walk again, but he will fly?

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He already has flown - with the crows.

Speculation regarding the Starks and dragons is that Jon Snow will be one of the the "3 Heads".

Bran will never, physically, leave the cave north of the wall again. Though he possibly could warg with a dragon, there's not much of a practical reason for him to do so as far as lore goes. Also, the farther away the target, the more difficult is it to initialize and maintain the connection (part assumption).

The First Men weren't the Crannogmen, the Crannogmen are just people of the marshes and bogs in the Neck. It is actually thought the Crannogmen are related to the CoTF, that is why they are shorter than other men.

The First Men are most of the men of the North, the Starks and the Wildlings are all descendants of the First Men. Most of those in the South are descendant from the Andals that came much later. The war between the First Men and CoTF was ended when a truce was made on the Isle of Faces which is near Harrenhall, it is one off the few places in the South that still has weirwoods and it is apparently covered with them (thus the name). The Andals are the ones who chopped down all the weirwoods in the South after they brought the Faith of the Seven.

Ah I misread the comma.

But still, the CotF have warg ability and the implication that the wierwoods see almost everything and it will meld with Bran who is a warg, is some serious joojoo magumbo.

Two random questions:

1. Why do some think Bran will never leave the cave?

2. Were the Targs followers of the 7 when they came to Westeros? Why would they build a godswood in King's Landing?

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1. Why do some think Bran will never leave the cave?

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1) He can't walk
2) He "melds" with the roots of the wierwoods

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2. Were the Targs followers of the 7 when they came to Westeros? Why would they build a godswood in King's Landing?

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Simple answer: Wives. Not all Targs married their sisters.

1. It was either blatantly stated or strongly suggested he would never leave.

2. The Targs converted to the Faith of the Seven sometime before the conquest.

Has anyone else completely forgotten the books bc they read them 3 years ago, and has been oblivious to all this detail during the show?

yes

I think Joff did try to murder Bran, and I think it shows LF quick thinking and GoT's skill and quickly blaming Tyron. Also be careful saying its the "Tyrells" poisoned Joff, it was all Olena and (probably) Margery.

Its doubtful Bran leaves the cave, now we learn just what his new role is going to be.

someone earlier mentioned Margery having an abortion. Is this speculation? I don't remember that. I remember the faith saying they examined her and she was still a maiden...

Umm she isnt a maiden.

yes but even cersei believes that's probably due to her frequent horseback riding.

she might have been getting moon tea from pycelle, but that doesn't mean it was for her.

The Targs didn't adopt the Seven until after conquering Westeros, it was part of how Aegon was accepted. Weirwoods were planted all over the South at one point, just most of them were cut down. The one Sansa goes to in the show is cut down, not sure about the one in the books.

I also am in the camp that is unsure that Bran is destined to stay in the cave forever. I've read that chapter several times and didn't get that. I suppose it could happen though, Bran is getting very powerful.

Debt I think you are probably right, but all we have is speculation. Or did one of the Kettleblacks admit to nailing her? I can't remember.

According to asoiaf.westeros.org, they adopted the Seven before conquering. So I dunno then.

I'm in the camp that believes Bran will never leave, but who the hell knows.

I think Cersei just got the Kettleblacks to lie and say they, or one of them, had slept with her.

Either the free roots are making a throne for bran or the tree roots are growing around him and through his body.

I think the entire Margery Moon Tea episode was her and Olenna playing Cersei. Cersei set up Margery for a fall because the Tyrells lured her into thinking she was outwitting them. She is completely hoist on the petard she set for Margery. And if you really think Loras Tyrell is burned beyond recognition and near death then I have some lovely beachfront property to sell you.

These books are so unwieldy that who possibly knows what's going to happen, but I would imagine that the Tyrell faction - Olenna's cunning backed by Randyll Tarley's sword - will play a significant role. They are Targ loyalists, after all, and baby Aegon just returned from the dead with an army.

I agree 100% about Loras. You're probably also right about cersei being played. Hadn't considered that before.

When does Arya become reunited w her direwolf?! Honestly all I care about.

Here is the quote on the wiki for Aegon the Conqueror:

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During the invasion Aegon converted to the Faith of the Seven as a political maneuver. Through the conversion he won the Faith's support, and dated the beginning of his reign from the day the High Septon anointed him in Oldtown.

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I want Nimeria to be head of a wolfpack that has 100+ heads.

I just remembered the shocker at the end of Feast for Crows - one of the grand maesters insinuated that the maesters were to blame for the extinction of the dragons!

really curious where GRRM takes that.....

I thought that wargs magic couldn't mess with other magical beings?

Never seen it said anywhere that wargs couldn't mess with magical beings. It is actually considered against the "rules" to warg into a person (of course no one has told Bran any rules but this is amongst the wildlings). A direwolf is actually pseudo magical for that matter.

The big question of course is if Bran or someone will warg a dragon. I think it is very possible.

Where are you guys finding/reading all this backstory stuff about the first men, etc?

I was recently thinking about how much GRRM has decimated most of the Great Houses.

Arryns: Jon was the Hand. All that remains is a sickly psychotic child.

Baratheon: Unless Mrs Stannis can make a male baby, this house is extinct the day Stannis dies. Which could be soon. Last surviving fake Baratheon is unlikely to survive the story alive and/or still considered a Baratheon.

Lannister: Tywin is dead. Kevan is dead. Jaime is uninterested. Tyrion is done as a Lannister. Tommen won't ever be a true Lannister. Kevan's 3rd son Martyn is the leading candidate to take control of the House down the road. He's still a child.

Stark: Ned dead. Rob dead. Bran done as a Stark. Rickon MIA. Sansa is a Lannister. Arya is done as a Stark. Jon is done as a Stark. Unless Rickon reappears, this house is done.

Greyjoy: Balon is dead. Theon is done being a Greyjoy. Family now run by a pirate.

Tully: Hoster is dead. Edmure is a captive. The Blackfish is a fugitive. The Blackfish isn't a breeder. If Edmure's wife births a son, they have a chance to recover.

Tyrell: the only house that has remained completely intact (if you believe Loras is okay).

Martell: Doran survives but his first heir is dead. Doran's brother is dead. Youngest heir still lives.

So, of the 8 Great Houses at the start of GOT, only 2 remain strong. The Lannisters survive, but the elder leadership is wiped out. They won't survive the revelation of incest. The rest of the Houses are already exiled, extinct, or nearing extinction.

I don't think it is a coincidence that the only houses the Targaryens can 100% count on are the 2 most powerful Houses as we await WoW.

And, I think Margaery weds Aegon. Of course, he doesn't survive long thereafter.

And, the dragonriders are Jon (R+L=J) and Aerys' surviving children, Dany and Tyrion.

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Jon is done as a Stark.

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Jon isn't a Stark. He's a Targaryen. He will likely hold Winterfell as Warden of the North someday, but I don't think he does it as a Stark.

Jon is speculated as a targ/stark

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Greyjoy: Balon is dead. Theon is done being a Greyjoy. Family now run by a pirate.

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great post, but this made me lol

The Greyjoy's are and have always been pirates! Imo they are one of the strongest houses right now.