I guess I can't get over how they killed Jonathan Kent. Have you seen Smallville? (Lil hokey, but I enjoyed it) Anyways, I loved how they did it in the show. Jon died of a heart attack while Clark could only watch helplessly. It was really well done and emphasized that no matter how strong, or how fast, or whatever abilities Clark possessed, he was powerless to stop his dad from dying. It was 100000x better than the way they went about it in Man of Steel.
Batman vs. Superman
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Last: 8 yr ago by Brian Earl Spilner
Yeah that's my biggest complaint about it. That was dumb.
quote:Agree, he could have save Jo Kent which did not make sense.
I guess I can't get over how they killed Jonathan Kent. Have you seen Smallville? (Lil hokey, but I enjoyed it) Anyways, I loved how they did it in the show. Jon died of a heart attack while Clark could only watch helplessly. It was really well done and emphasized that no matter how strong, or how fast, or whatever abilities Clark possessed, he was powerless to stop his dad from dying. It was 100000x better than the way they went about it in Man of Steel.
1. He could have super speed run and grab the dog and just go straight back to the house so nobody would know it was him.
2. He could have done the same for Kent
3. He could have flown into the tornado and counter spin and removed the threat.
Now if they made Mr. Kent run back with the dog and then have a heart attack.. that would have worked.
WB/DC has canceled a JL movie that was in production before. How bizarre would it be to have to do it a second time?
quote:I think it's interesting that both are going in the same sort of direction....are the superheroes too super to not have some sort of oversight. Even Supergirl is kind of headed in that same direction.
Tell me why again it's a good thing that Batman and Superman are fighting? And WTF with Iron Man and Captain America fighting!
STOP THE MADNESS!
quote:I saw something yesterday that made me think that all of this BvS storyline has been set up in animated films. If I can get my brain working today I'll try to remember where I saw it.quote:As others have said, the Batman v Superman is straight from the comics, but the issue is that there really hasn't been much of a setup.
Tell me why again it's a good thing that Batman and Superman are fighting? And WTF with Iron Man and Captain America fighting!
STOP THE MADNESS!
Marvel has done a great job setting up the conflict between Iron Man and Cap over at least The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron, though some of the seeds of that conflict have been around since the beginning of the MCU. If you're confused why the two sides are in conflict, at least go back and watch Age of Ultron which really leans into that conflict.
I know the BvS storyline has been told in various animated series and movies over the years, but is there one that actually ties into the DCU?
quote:The Dark Knight Returns (both the animated movie and graphic novel by Frank Miller) have a Batman vs Superman storyline, and visually Snyder has heavily borrowed from that.quote:I saw something yesterday that made me think that all of this BvS storyline has been set up in animated films. If I can get my brain working today I'll try to remember where I saw it.quote:As others have said, the Batman v Superman is straight from the comics, but the issue is that there really hasn't been much of a setup.
Tell me why again it's a good thing that Batman and Superman are fighting? And WTF with Iron Man and Captain America fighting!
STOP THE MADNESS!
Marvel has done a great job setting up the conflict between Iron Man and Cap over at least The Winter Soldier and Age of Ultron, though some of the seeds of that conflict have been around since the beginning of the MCU. If you're confused why the two sides are in conflict, at least go back and watch Age of Ultron which really leans into that conflict.
He's explicitly said, however, that BvS is not an adaptation of the graphic novel.
So he's going to keep the best visuals while working with a weak story? Gee, that's nothing like the Zach Snyder I know....
quote:I mean it's true. That's something the DCU is going for now. It's basically the modern world with the additions of superheroes.quote:I think it's interesting that both are going in the same sort of direction....are the superheroes too super to not have some sort of oversight. Even Supergirl is kind of headed in that same direction.
Tell me why again it's a good thing that Batman and Superman are fighting? And WTF with Iron Man and Captain America fighting!
STOP THE MADNESS!
Think about that for a moment. How do you think people would react to Superman? A being with the power to crush the Earth with his hands and there isn't a damn thing anyone could do to stop him. People would either succumb to extreme paranoia and fear or would view him as either a physical embodiment of god's wrath or as an actual god to worship. Both Batman and Lex Luthor are examples of the former mentality, which is why the conflict ultimately happens. However, since Batman is ultimately a detective and can draw his own conclusions about people, he will likely change his opinion once he interacts with Superman.
I would like to think I would just view him as a guy trying to help but I don't honestly know. It would be terrifying to watch the Superman/Zod fight.
Excluding Thor, The Avengers are just a bunch of regular people trying to be heroes whereas the Justice League are basically gods trying to human. Each member of the Justice League outside of Batman has the potential to crush the planet through shear power alone. It's going to be interesting to see how this aspect of the Justice League is portrayed on screen.
Problem with Superman and the rest is that you're forced to nerf them to make any threat credible. That's always been a problem with DC, and is why Batman is by far their most popular character.
Forreal doe, is Thor bullet proof? Marvel has kinda been murky about his durability in the mortal world...like, in the first Avengers, Loki stabbed him in the abdomen, and he just kinda shrugged it off. And then in Age of Ultron, they never showed how bullets affected him...just kinda vague.
quote:Not really. DC has tons of ridiculously powerful villains that take the entirety of the League to beat and even then it's by the skin of their teeth.
Problem with Superman and the rest is that you're forced to nerf them to make any threat credible. That's always been a problem with DC, and is why Batman is by far their most popular character.
For instance, the villains in the works right now: Doomsday, Braniac, and Darkseid are all villains that significantly outclass any single Justice League member. Further, Darkseid vastly outclasses the entire League put together. Darkseid is an immortal god with extreme physical and mental abilities along with absolute control over an enslaved planet that more or less looks like what we imagine Hell to be.
That's definitely a more modern take on superheroes and I think one that works in our current environment. I don't love, however, that it seems like everything needs to be slick and dark and cool when that's not where all these different characters come from.
I know there's always been a desire to modernize some of the more classic heroes, but personally I'd love to see a more retro Superman film where the character's traditional attributes can be played up. Set it somewhere in the 40s/50s with a Metropolis full of cool art deco architecture, fight giant robots, etc.
I know there's always been a desire to modernize some of the more classic heroes, but personally I'd love to see a more retro Superman film where the character's traditional attributes can be played up. Set it somewhere in the 40s/50s with a Metropolis full of cool art deco architecture, fight giant robots, etc.
quote:
Forreal doe, is Thor bullet proof? Marvel has kinda been murky about his durability in the mortal world...like, in the first Avengers, Loki stabbed him in the abdomen, and he just kinda shrugged it off. And then in Age of Ultron, they never showed how bullets affected him...just kinda vague.
I think Thor is basically invincible against man-made threats, but we've seen asgardians be killed by threats from other planets, so he can probably be killed via alien technology, too.
We've also seen Tony Stark and Hulk go toe-to-toe with him, Scarlet Witch get inside his head, and Captain America's shield stand up to Mjolnir, giving additional boramaters of his strength. Loki isn't a trained warrior and probably doesn't want Thor killed, so the dagger not stopping him isn't a terrible surprise.
If that's the case, I fear for the upcoming DC films. I think one of the things that was so refreshing about Deadpool, Ant-Man, Daredevil and Jessica Jones is that the antagonist isn't threatening the planet or galaxy. It's more personal.
Obviously there's a place for galactic threats, and they shouldn't nerf Darkseid into a local enemy or something, but if the 10 upcoming DC films all have cities being destroyed repeatedly, on top of whatever big-budget Avengers, Thors, etc. - it's going to get real old real fast.
Hopefully there's room for a smaller scale film. Maybe Suicide Squad. But MoS already went scorched earth, and the BvS trailer already has Doomsday destroying what looks like entire neighborhoods, and with Snyder set to handle JL1 and 2......
I guess at least we'll always have the Marvel Netflix products. (Shrug)
Obviously there's a place for galactic threats, and they shouldn't nerf Darkseid into a local enemy or something, but if the 10 upcoming DC films all have cities being destroyed repeatedly, on top of whatever big-budget Avengers, Thors, etc. - it's going to get real old real fast.
Hopefully there's room for a smaller scale film. Maybe Suicide Squad. But MoS already went scorched earth, and the BvS trailer already has Doomsday destroying what looks like entire neighborhoods, and with Snyder set to handle JL1 and 2......
I guess at least we'll always have the Marvel Netflix products. (Shrug)
quote:Snyder = Michael Bay?
Hopefully there's room for a smaller scale film. Maybe Suicide Squad. But MoS already went scorched earth, and the BvS trailer already has Doomsday destroying what looks like entire neighborhoods, and with Snyder set to handle JL1 and 2......
I've been starting to make that comparison in my head!
quote:
If that's the case, I fear for the upcoming DC films. I think one of the things that was so refreshing about Deadpool, Ant-Man, Daredevil and Jessica Jones is that the antagonist isn't threatening the planet or galaxy. It's more personal.
Obviously there's a place for galactic threats, and they shouldn't nerf Darkseid into a local enemy or something, but if the 10 upcoming DC films all have cities being destroyed repeatedly, on top of whatever big-budget Avengers, Thors, etc. - it's going to get real old real fast.
Hopefully there's room for a smaller scale film. Maybe Suicide Squad. But MoS already went scorched earth, and the BvS trailer already has Doomsday destroying what looks like entire neighborhoods, and with Snyder set to handle JL1 and 2......
I guess at least we'll always have the Marvel Netflix products. (Shrug)
The problem is that many of the Justice League members can solo anything that isn't a planetary level threat. The power differential between the Justice League and the Avengers is pretty huge, which means that Ultron level threats won't work at all because individual League members could have easily taken him.
There are a lot of villains out there that DC can use and all of them will use different methods of taking on the League.
MoS could have been a great movie with 3 minor changes:
1) Kent/Tornado death as mentioned. Either kill him in a way that Supoerman can't prevent or don't kill him at all
2) Spread Lois' "Search for Superman" over her life instead of basically a month. Have this "mystery savior" be someone that Lois caught on to in journalism school and has been following (but never finding) as a side project ever since. Get rid of her scaling an ice cliff to find the ship. You can do that whole sequence with her looking through binoculars. She can see the person walking in the cold with no protection, see him burning a whole in the ice, and see the ship fly away and you get the same feel. Lois doesn't need to find Clark before he asks to see her at the military base. And if you want to show she knows who he is, make it the very last sequence where Perry introduce Clark Kent and she just gives him a knowing look.
3) Have superman make a concerted effort to take the fight away from civilians. Zod can keep bringing it back, but the people have to feel like Superman is trying to protect them.
Those are minor in my opinion, but would tie the story together much better. I agree with Spinner that the movie is much better than most give it credit for. It's become one where it's cool to hate on the movie.
1) Kent/Tornado death as mentioned. Either kill him in a way that Supoerman can't prevent or don't kill him at all
2) Spread Lois' "Search for Superman" over her life instead of basically a month. Have this "mystery savior" be someone that Lois caught on to in journalism school and has been following (but never finding) as a side project ever since. Get rid of her scaling an ice cliff to find the ship. You can do that whole sequence with her looking through binoculars. She can see the person walking in the cold with no protection, see him burning a whole in the ice, and see the ship fly away and you get the same feel. Lois doesn't need to find Clark before he asks to see her at the military base. And if you want to show she knows who he is, make it the very last sequence where Perry introduce Clark Kent and she just gives him a knowing look.
3) Have superman make a concerted effort to take the fight away from civilians. Zod can keep bringing it back, but the people have to feel like Superman is trying to protect them.
Those are minor in my opinion, but would tie the story together much better. I agree with Spinner that the movie is much better than most give it credit for. It's become one where it's cool to hate on the movie.
I agree with your points BigTimeAlum. MoS had great potential and just missed.
Also, I kind of wish that Clark had learned how to fly before he put on the suit. I imagined some really cool scenes on the Kent farm where he first discovers he can be airborne and perfecting flight long before he becomes Supes.
Also, I kind of wish that Clark had learned how to fly before he put on the suit. I imagined some really cool scenes on the Kent farm where he first discovers he can be airborne and perfecting flight long before he becomes Supes.
I thought the flashback sequences were a bit ham-fisted. (Like when he's getting bullied, or protecting a waitress' honor, or saving a sinking school bus...all very cliche, generic hollywood hero tropes.)
The world engine growing arms to fight Superman was pretty weak, I thought.
Also the effects of Earth's atmosphere vs the Kryptonian atmosphere was pretty inconsistent and maybe should have just been left out entirely. I see what they were going for, but it only really works if you're doing a coming of age, slow burn type of discovery story. That would have paired well with the idea of Lois searching for him over the course of her career.
Also the effects of Earth's atmosphere vs the Kryptonian atmosphere was pretty inconsistent and maybe should have just been left out entirely. I see what they were going for, but it only really works if you're doing a coming of age, slow burn type of discovery story. That would have paired well with the idea of Lois searching for him over the course of her career.
quote:I get that but that is who Superman is. Some of the first complaints I heard about this movie was that it was too far away from the Christopher Reeves movies of our childhood. I think it's hard to do a Superman movie without some of those aspects.
I thought the flashback sequences were a bit ham-fisted. (Like when he's getting bullied, or protecting a waitress' honor, or saving a sinking school bus...all very cliche, generic hollywood hero tropes.)
Sidenote: if you want to read some interesting Superman stories, check out the Superman: American Alien series out now from DC. It's a miniseries dealing with different events in Clark's life from childhood through becoming Superman and explores some aspects of the character that would make for some fantastic films. The issues are a bit up and down in quality but the concept is pretty great.
quote:http://www.newsarama.com/26131-screenwriter-max-landis-on-superman-american-alien.html
The stories are thematically united by the idea of identity, but not so much "secret" identity more "personality" identity, who we want to be versus who we are from moment to moment.
The reason it's called American Alien is that the thing that's always interested me about Superman the least are his alien origins. I think they're important thematically, but ultimately what I like about him as a character is that he was someone who was "born" in the U.S.A. and has grown up wanting to be the best kind of person.
Each of the stories is him challenging himself while being challenged about what kind of person he is. They're less about becoming a superhero and more about becoming not-an-*******.
quote:I disagree. The best elements of child/adolescent Superman is during the times he's learning or struggling to discover his abilities. Hate to bring up Smallville again, but I thought they did some good things in terms of showcasing WHY Clark felt himself an outsider (other than the obvious alien aspect):quote:I think it's hard to do a Superman movie without some of those aspects.
I thought the flashback sequences were a bit ham-fisted. (Like when he's getting bullied, or protecting a waitress' honor, or saving a sinking school bus...all very cliche, generic hollywood hero tropes.)
- He couldn't play sports for risk of showing his abilities
- As a kid, he had to be kept away from other children because he couldn't control his tantrums
- His heat vision was discovered....during an 'intimate' moment of passion (thus adding to his reluctance to date)
But even those are just showcasing some of the downsides of his abilities. Filmmakers could have had some real fun with him discovering super speed or flight. (Hell, imagine the fun x-ray vision coulda been?)
Basically, Superman is a generic, trope-y hero...but that doesn't mean his journey to become Superman has to be. I just felt MoS took some shortcuts in this regard.
I wasn't convinced for 1 second that Superman and Lois had any kind of meaningful feelings for each other. That was a very rushed subplot. But oh well
quote:At this point I think that's an insult to Bay. At least Bay has a few classic fun blockbusters with immense re-watchability and can occasionally deliver a complete movie narrative albeit a shallow one.quote:Snyder = Michael Bay?
Hopefully there's room for a smaller scale film. Maybe Suicide Squad. But MoS already went scorched earth, and the BvS trailer already has Doomsday destroying what looks like entire neighborhoods, and with Snyder set to handle JL1 and 2......
Snyder has yet to show me he can give me something I can dig that isn't an almost shot for shot recreation of a graphic novel.
I really enjoyed Sucker Punch.
*Braces for impact.*
*Braces for impact.*
Dawn of the Dead
300
Watchmen
All 3 movies have immense 're-watchability', imo, and are at least as good as anything that Michael Bay has made.
Sucker punch?....I'll leave that one alone.
300
Watchmen
All 3 movies have immense 're-watchability', imo, and are at least as good as anything that Michael Bay has made.
Sucker punch?....I'll leave that one alone.
quote:Note to self: don't trust Spilner's review of BvS
Man of Steel has gotten better for me each time.
Great (imo) movies tend to do that. I'm excited to watch it in the next few weeks to get ready foe BvS.
I really enjoyed Sucker Punch.
*Braces for impact.*
quote:Dawn of the Dead was a good but not great remake of one of the greatest horror movies ever made. I'll give Snyder credit because these types of remakes are almost always failures and its probably his best movie IMO. 300 was great when it came out but it hasn't aged well for me. Watchmen I thought was decent (like Man of Steel) but it had the potential to be so much better. In the hands of a better director, it could have been an all time great.
Dawn of the Dead
300
Watchmen
All 3 movies have immense 're-watchability', imo, and are at least as good as anything that Michael Bay has made.
Sucker punch?....I'll leave that one alone.
Sucker Punch was one of the worst movies I've ever seen in a movie theater.
quote:I actually really like 300 and Watchmen. I guess what I'm more trying to say (and this is completely a personal hangup) is that I don't give him as much credit for them as he probably deserves just because they were so faithful and exactly like the source material.
Dawn of the Dead
300
Watchmen
All 3 movies have immense 're-watchability', imo, and are at least as good as anything that Michael Bay has made.
Sucker punch?....I'll leave that one alone.
As far as Snyder's best versus Bay's best, I'll go with Bay every time but fully admit that's most likely due to nostalgia and being a 13-year old pubescent during the Rock/Armageddon era.
Tend to agree with you across the board. Snyder puts out visually gorgeous stuff that features characters he just can't make me care about. Heavy on the sizzle, light on the story and character development.
I enjoyed Watchmen and 300 but neither is as genuinely entertaining as The Rock or Bad Boys IMO.
I enjoyed Watchmen and 300 but neither is as genuinely entertaining as The Rock or Bad Boys IMO.
quote:It's official, this thread has ran its course.
I enjoyed Watchmen and 300 but neither is as genuinely entertaining as The Rock or Bad Boys IMO.
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