*** STAR WARS: THE LAST JEDI ***

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Urban Ag
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Thanks.

So, do you mean that you're 99% certain that Snoke is Thrawn or that they both came from the same planet/order/etc?

As a nerdy aside, I have an original hardback copy of Heir to the Empire, not a page turned, on a shelf in my closet. Saw it in a bookstore in high school, picked it up, but never read it.
CrazyDayDuck
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Urban Ag said:

TCTTS said:


So some Rebels re-runs have been hitting my DVR and it got me thinking about Snoke.

Obviously this has been batted around already but if Snoke does turn out to be an existing or known character I'd put my money on it being Grand Admiral Thrawn. Again, not a new theory but I think it has merit.

I know very little about the EU other than it's not considered canon, and that Thrawn only appeared in the EU prior to last season of Rebels. We know that Thrawn came from the far unknown regions of the galaxy just as the First Order did, building up secretly over decades or literally since the end of the Empire. From Rebels, we know Thrawn is unemotional and relies on logic. This fits well with the conversation Snoke had with Kylo about sentiment ultimately destroying the Empire. Thrawn is also portrayed as an extreme martial artist which might tie in well to the formation of the Knights of Ren. Seems plausible that maybe after some humiliating defeat, Thrawn withdrew to his home world or somewhere out in the far reaches and kind of watched the demise of the Empire from afar.

But it would also explain why Thrawn, an EU/non-canon character, would be brought in to the story arc in Rebels as a major character. Snoke has to be someone that has lead militarily at a very high level, that could organize and build an entire political/military/economic machine the size of the First Order. And only someone previously of the Empire would re-build the First Order in near 100% likeness to the Empire.

Or he's just some random new bad guy.

Best theory I have heard so far.

Although it does seem like Snoke is a new bad guy. After all, the Sith are known for their secrecy ... which is kind of ironic when you think about it.
AliasMan02
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Urban Ag said:

Thanks.

So, do you mean that you're 99% certain that Snoke is Thrawn or that they both came from the same planet/order/etc?

As a nerdy aside, I have an original hardback copy of Heir to the Empire, not a page turned, on a shelf in my closet. Saw it in a bookstore in high school, picked it up, but never read it.


I'm sure he's not Thrawn. But I'm 99 percent sure Snoke's origin is from the Unknown Regions, where the Chiss/Thrawn are from, and that Thrawn (and Palpatine, actually) have dropped tiny hints about the sorts of things that can be found there. I think that all ties into Snoke.

If I'm right, Episodes 8 and ESPECIALLY 9 will really shake things up in Star Wars and open a lot of new narrative doors.
Urban Ag
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so as I said, I never read any of the EU so I went to the wiki for Heir to the Empire and this is the second paragraph down.

Quote:

Thousands of light years away, Grand Admiral Thrawn, the last of the Emperor's Warlords, has taken command of the shattered Imperial Fleet, readied it for war, and pointed it at the fragile heart of the New Republic. Thrawn is searching for a Dark Jedi and is succeeding in restoring the Empire.

Hmmm.............a blue print for the First Order and it's leader was already there? Maybe?

Then, I accidentally clicked the wiki link to Thrawn and saw that Timothy Zahn has a new novel coming out this year, Star Wars: Thrawn. I had no idea. They sure seem to be investing a lot in Thrawn.

Then I saw this:
Quote:

Thrawn is mentioned in the 2017 Chuck Wendig novel Star Wars: Aftermath: Empire's End as the source of the information about the Unknown Regions which Palpatine uses in his Contingency plan. This plan results in the creation of the First Order.[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Admiral_Thrawn#cite_note-5_Revelations-54][54][/url]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Admiral_Thrawn#cite_note-5_Revelations-54][/url]
[url][/url]
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Admiral_Thrawn#cite_note-5_Revelations-54][/url]
ok so that is canon now too (or will be, not sure if the book is out). Hmmmm.....
Belton Ag
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Why wouldn't he just call himself Thrawn? Why be secretive?

One of the things that's getting kind of annoying with the new trilogy is the multiple mysteries that have sprung up. Maybe that's Abrams' influence, I don't know, but there's no need for red herrings or to keep the audience guessing. Star Wars sells itself just fine.
Ag Since 83
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It's a pretty widely held belief that Thrawn is part of groundwork for Snoke's backstory. But he is probably not Snoke himself. I think a more likely idea is that in some medium (either books or a cartoon) you will see Thrawn go back to the Unknown Regions and encounter Snoke/the fledgling First Order while defending the Chiss Ascendancy. This will allow them to use Thrawn more as a good guy.

BTW, the new Zahn book has been out since April and Empire's End since I believe February
Ag Since 83
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Belton Ag said:

Why wouldn't he just call himself Thrawn? Why be secretive?

One of the things that's getting kind of annoying with the new trilogy is the multiple mysteries that have sprung up. Maybe that's Abrams' influence, I don't know, but there's no need for red herrings or to keep the audience guessing. Star Wars sells itself just fine.
I actually thing this is mainly the fan's fault more than anything Lucasfilm did.

The most likely answer for Thrawn coming back has nothing to do with a "is Snoke Thrawn?" mystery: it's that Dave Filoni loved Thrawn and knows the fans loved Thrawn so they thought it would be cool to bring him back. So of course they are probably going to incorporate it into the larger story (which is good, because the lack of continuity is what plagued the EU), but it's the fans who dissect everything.
Flashdiaz
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It's going to be funny when we find out Rey's parents and Snoke are previously unknown new characters.
ChipFTAC01
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Thrawn book any good? I loved the Zahn trilogy when I was in middle school.
Belton Ag
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Quote:

I actually thing this is mainly the fan's fault more than anything Lucasfilm did.
100% agree. I actually changed the way I worded my post, originally I said the hype around the new trilogy has given the rise to the mysteries. But Lucasfilm and Disney haven't done much to quell the talk (nor should they because it's good for business) and TFA with Abrams at the helm directly birthed the mysteries in question.
Ag Since 83
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ChipFTAC01 said:

Thrawn book any good? I loved the Zahn trilogy when I was in middle school.
Very good. If you liked him and Palleaon (or however he spelled it), Zahn gives him another sidekick to play the foil. Their relationship is really good.

If you watch Rebels, prepare for maybe a less sinister and more logical portrayal of Thrawn. It's tough to think of the guy in the book with the voice they use in Rebels.

But, if you like Zahn's writing style and were a fan of the old Thrawn books, I'd highly recommend it.
AliasMan02
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Ag Since 83 said:

It's a pretty widely held belief that Thrawn is part of groundwork for Snoke's backstory. But he is probably not Snoke himself. I think a more likely idea is that in some medium (either books or a cartoon) you will see Thrawn go back to the Unknown Regions and encounter Snoke/the fledgling First Order while defending the Chiss Ascendancy. This will allow them to use Thrawn more as a good guy.

BTW, the new Zahn book has been out since April and Empire's End since I believe February


I doubt Thrawn returns to the Chiss, and likely meets his end in the finale of Rebels.

The Phasma novel, which I suspect will really be a novel about the end of Rae Sloane's run and the shift from Empire to First Order witnessed through Phasma's eyes, should give us the story of how Snoke interjects into things. That will be a twist that the Emperor didn't see coming in his grand plan.
AliasMan02
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I thought I had written this all down, but I guess not. Here is how Snoke will break down (imo), and why. This contains summaries of relevant portions of Aftermath, Lords of the Sith, Thrawn, Tarkin, and other works.

1. He will be a new character, and not someone from the current extended canon or the old EU. Brand new. Why? Because Lucasfilm has shown over and over again that they understand that it cannot pander to its superfans. The movies must stand totally alone. The TV shows, books, and comics must all be completely superfluous.

2. He'll be an alien. That's confirmed. I'd be shocked if he is not a NEW alien.

3. He'll be a Dark Side user, but not a Sith. Lucasfilm execs aren't dummies. They aren't gonna undo all of the mythology and story of their (admittedly ridiculous) "chosen one" arc for Anakin by having more Sith out there. Yes, it's shaky even with other Dark Siders around, but the Jedi-Sith struggle is done for now. Will we see a resurgent Sith sometime down the road? Absolutely, but not for quite a while.

4. He will be from the Unknown Regions. The short version of this is... duh. That's where the First Order was born. But there's more to it than that, about which I have to expound a bit.


The Emperor's Grand Plan

Prior to the battle of Endor, the Emperor was unable to see past that fateful day with any confidence. There was a shatterpoint in his farsight, and while he had done everything possible to assure his victory, he knew there was a chance that he, and the Sith, would be destroyed. So, he took steps.

Prior to the battle, Palpatine sent his protege, Gallius Rax, to the wilds of space with a Super Star Destroyer and some escort ships. His mission, should Palpatine die, was to take control of the remnant. He was not to rebuild the Empire, but was to burn it down. Leave only the hardest, most fanatical core, and then retreat with them to the Unknown Regions and start anew. Waiting for him would be more Imperial forces that the Emperor had arranged to have in hiding, hand-picked to survive the scourge.


The Unknown Regions

So, what are the Unknown Regions? This is not the deep, mysterious edges of the galaxy. Wild Space is the term for the extreme borders of space. The borders of the Unknown Regions are known. It is a pocket of known space that is nearly impassable. There are no known safe routes through it. It's full of bizarre phenomena and storms and alien creatures that live in empty space. One exception is that Ilum, the traditional source of Kyber utilized by the Jedi, was reliably reachable based on ancient Jedi knowledge... the Empire was also able to exploit the Jedi's route to Ilum after the fall of the Republic. But penetrating deep into this part of space was known to be impossible.

Once inside its borders, it is apparently livable but still incredibly dangerous. This is where the formidable Chiss Ascendency is found, the empire from where Thrawn hails. The Chiss are constantly assaulted by incredibly dangerous forces that made the Empire under Palpatine look like nothing. "Pure evil," as Thrawn describes. It was seeking allies against these forces that led the Chiss to send Thrawn into Imperial space. Alternately, if the Empire were not found to be allies, the plan was to try and draw the Empire and the evil forces in the Unknown Regions into war with each other. Whatever is out there hounding the Chiss, it is no joke.


Palpatine and the Unknown Regions

Palpatine was obsessed with the Unknown Regions. He wanted very badly to get there.

For one, he was never satisfied with an Empire that controlled only the known parts of space. He wanted to control the entire galaxy. And other galaxies. The Unknown Regions was the next step in his plan of conquest.

Second, according to Palpatine, inside the Unknown Regions can be found the source of the Dark Side of the Force. The Dark Side emanates from a particular place... it is not created by life as the true Force is. The Living Force comes from everywhere (though it does have an origin and is stronger in some places than others). The Dark Side, from somewhere (according to Palpatine's understanding) in the Unknown Regions.

It was the Emperor's obsession with this part of space that led him to ally with Thrawn, to try and gain intelligence about the region and learn how to traverse it. It is why he set up an Observatory on Jakku to try and plot a course through the Unknown Regions, which eventually succeeded.


So, Supreme Leader Snoke...

The hardened and honored remnant of the Empire selected by Palpatine and Rax left known space and headed into the Unknown Regions, where it met up with additional forces hidden by the Emperor after his death. Rax was dead by that point, and Sloane in command. Brendol Hux (father of Armitage Hux that we know from TFA) was brought along to train the kidnapped and brainwashed children that would form the core of the First Order's fanatical forces. The Emperor's own SSD was waiting in the Unknown Regions.

Something happens, though, that takes things off track. Between the end of Aftermath and the start of Bloodline (prior to TFA), the remaining pieces of the Empire are presumably taken over by Snoke. It seems that he has been keeping an eye on the known galaxy. His First Order curries favor and has political influence in the New Republic by proxy. He lures in Ben Solo. He creates the Knights of Ren. He commands the absolute loyalty of dyed-in-the-wool former Imperials like Armitage Hux.



My thought is that Snoke will be a powerful alien Dark Sider, possibly trying to gain access to the wellspring of the Dark Side. The Awakening in the Force has somehow interfered with his long-standing plan and he is using the First Order to try and snuff out the resurgent Light Side before it gains a foothold. I think that by the end of TLJ, and certainly by the main act of Episode IX, our heroes will be in the Unknown Regions fighting the battle there. I think having a whole new area of the galaxy to serve as a setting for exploration and adventure will provide a lot of fun for the next episodes in the saga.
Urban Ag
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Wait a sec......so Lucasfilm execs are no dummies and know they can't pander to their super fans, and each movie must stand on it's own, yet the TFA is essentially New Hope version 2?
AliasMan02
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Urban Ag said:

Wait a sec......so Lucasfilm execs are no dummies and know they can't pander to their super fans, and each movie must stand on it's own, yet the TFA is essentially New Hope version 2?
The fact that TFA recalled so much from ANH is the greatest evidence that they DON'T pander to superfans. That was a deliberate outreach to the reengage the mass audience. You think Star Wars fanatics needed to re-familiarized with the Star Wars universe?
redline248
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I think you could have stopped after your very first point. I know you provided all the rest of that from book knowledge, but as you say...the majority of the movie audience will have no knowledge about it.

As to Snoke being a dark side using alien...not to be disrespectful, but duh.

I mean, it's possible he could be a human, we don't know anything about him other than his hologram image...but it's more likely than not that he isn't. It's pretty obvious he uses the dark side of the force, too, since he has been teaching Kylo.

edit: and one other thing. From the TFA, we know that Leia and Han know who Snoke is. Luke probably, too, since Snoke's mission is to kill him.
AliasMan02
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Ha. Well, yeah. I guess my ultimate point was that Lucasfilm and the story group are very deliberate in how they tease forward material. The things that keep popping up consistently in books and comics and TV shows... that's not a coincidence.
redline248
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As far as Snoke being a new character, how many fans actually want him to be an existing character, like Ezra for example? I certainly don't.
TCTTS
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Duncan Idaho
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redline248 said:

As far as Snoke being a new character, how many fans actually want him to be an existing character, like Ezra for example? I certainly don't.

An existing character from rebels or clone wars would be met with a resounding "who?" By most

And
"What the actual ****?" By the fans familiar with the shows.
Dro07
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I think a possible side character like Del Toro could be Ezra and such but Snoke is a larger roll.
TCTTS
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This. I think the board sometimes places far too much emphasis/importance on the cartoons and books. Considering the massive audience who sees the movies, only a tiny percentage watch the cartoons and/or read the books in comparison. There's ZERO chance of Snoke being a character from the cartoons/books, and if Ezra/Thrawn/etc. ever made it into a movie, size-wise, they would have a role comparable to Saw Gerrera's in Rogue One (who was basically an afterthought and rumored to be retroactively fit to Gerrera as a wink of sorts), if not far smaller.
hunter2012
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you could have it be a book/show character for a major role but their backstory should be insignificant to the larger plot. Think the emperor in the original trilogy, we know nothing about him, but he is critical in RotJ.
SpreadsheetAg
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I may finally be an Adam Driver fan:



Didn't know he has served.
TCTTS
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TCTTS
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Just a reminder that this weekend is D23 (basically Disney's own version of Comic-Con). Their live-action movie panel is Saturday, 12:30 PM - 2:30 PM CST, which is heavily rumored to feature a behind-the-scenes featurette for The Last Jedi, much like the ones simultaneously released online for both TFA and Rogue One. So we'll likely be getting just a tiny bit more footage, as Rian Johnson will be on hand to introduce. There are also rumors of a new trailer, but I seriously doubt that happens, as most "insiders" are only expecting a featurette to be released. Either way, the veil will likely be lifted slightly more this weekend.
The Collective
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So, no trailer this week would leave us probably waiting until the fall for the final trailer, correct?
TCTTS
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CJS4715 said:

So, no trailer this week would leave us probably waiting until the fall for the final trailer, correct?

Hard to say. Here's the trailer breakdown for the past two movies...

The Force Awakens:
11.14 - Teaser
04.15 - Teaser Trailer
10.15 - Final Trailer

Rogue One:
04.16 - Teaser Trailer A
08.16 - Teaser Trailer B
10.16 - Final Trailer

So, as you can see, the only likely assurances are a teaser trailer in April (check) and a final trailer in October. After a fairly lengthy trailer in April, I just can't see The Last Jedi having another trailer in July/August, but who knows. I also can't see it not having three trailers, so I don't know what their game plan is.
TCTTS
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Each of those also had behind-the-scenes featurettes in July, btw.
TCTTS
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One last reminder, re: D23. Tomorrow morning.
TCTTS
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RebAg13
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Sounds so good. It's the only new movie that hasn't had major production problems and the first two turned our pretty great
Belton Ag
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Guess that answers the minor question about whether Finn is still in a coma in this movie.

Also, was that a model of Snoke that Rian Johnson was looking at?
Zombie Jon Snow
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Belton Ag said:

Guess that answers the minor question about whether Finn is still in a coma in this movie.

Also, was that a model of Snoke that Rian Johnson was looking at?
unless it's all a dream....in his coma!!
redline248
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Rey fighting with a staff

= double bladed saber?
 
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