BMX Bandit said:

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i wish i had his patience & insight

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BMX Bandit said:

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Cy_Tolliver said:

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Another thing - since he had bones broken, and that likely indicated murder, how could you say definitively "suicide"? The ruling, at best, should be "undetermined". This whole thing stinks.

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this is incorrect.

the broken hyoid doesn't make it "likely" it was murder, its just seen more often in murder than in suicide.

they say its suicide because of all the factors looked at, not just the broken bone.

has the actual report been released? I haven't seen it. until then, all this "yep, suicide, case closed" or "cover up!" talk is premature.

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Cy_Tolliver said:

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The story was first that the cameras malfunctioned. Then it was "oh there are no cameras in the cells" Then when they came to the realization that you could easily validate he was murdered or not by simply reviewing the video during that period to see if anyone entered the cell.

Then it was either "the cameras malfunctioned" again or silence. Expect "19 minutes of missing video" later.

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the broken hyoid doesn't make it "likely" it was murder, its just seen more often in murder than in suicide.

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Alfredo Rodriguez, who was Jeffrey Epstein's houseman for many years, passed away in 2015 at age 60.

Rodriguez served prison time after refusing to hand over Epstein's book in 2011 and attempting to sell it for over L30,000.

Rodriguez kept a "black book" that included details on "the full scope and the extent of Epstein's involvement with underage girls."

When he died the location of the black book died with him. The location of the document was never disclosed.

Rodriquez was charged with a felony and served 18 months in prison for attempting to sell the book......

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aggiehawg said:

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Epstein's lawyers' statement.

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drcrinum said:

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Why any young girl would ever want to go into modeling is beyond me, when everyone knows there is only one way to make it to the top.

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Dr. Cyril Wecht: Let me say, if this is a lean-into kind of a hanging, not someone hurling himself from the top bunk. But if he were for example, sitting on the lower bunk or kneeling by there, and no evidence of him being on the top bunk, and hurling himself off, then there is no velocity there is no force imparted to that scenario. Leaning forward in my opinion would not lead to what we have been told are "multiple fractures." We don't know what was broken exactly. No details have come from the medical examiner's office. We're told by the Washington Post, New York Post that the hyoid bone was broken, that's above the Adam's Apple If there are fractures of the thyroid cartilage, the Adam's Apple in association with the hyoid bone that is highly suspicious and in my opinion extremely unlikely to be caused by a leaning into type of suicide hanging I agree and I want to make that clear that I cannot express an opinion with reasonable medical certainty. I can only repeat what I have said based upon the cases I have myself examined, hundreds of cases over the years in my 20,000 plus autopsies, 40,000 other cases that I have reviewed, supervised or signed off on. That I have not seen multiple fractures in a simple leaning into kind of suicidal hanging when there is no velocity.

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aggiehawg said:

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Dr. Wecht not backing down.

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Dr. Cyril Wecht: Let me say, if this is a lean-into kind of a hanging, not someone hurling himself from the top bunk. But if he were for example, sitting on the lower bunk or kneeling by there, and no evidence of him being on the top bunk, and hurling himself off, then there is no velocity there is no force imparted to that scenario. Leaning forward in my opinion would not lead to what we have been told are "multiple fractures." We don't know what was broken exactly. No details have come from the medical examiner's office. We're told by the Washington Post, New York Post that the hyoid bone was broken, that's above the Adam's Apple If there are fractures of the thyroid cartilage, the Adam's Apple in association with the hyoid bone that is highly suspicious and in my opinion extremely unlikely to be caused by a leaning into type of suicide hanging I agree and I want to make that clear that I cannot express an opinion with reasonable medical certainty. I can only repeat what I have said based upon the cases I have myself examined, hundreds of cases over the years in my 20,000 plus autopsies, 40,000 other cases that I have reviewed, supervised or signed off on. That I have not seen multiple fractures in a simple leaning into kind of suicidal hanging when there is no velocity.

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Not to be too crass, but who's going to pay for such an investigation? It's not going to be cheap to fight the government for access to all of this, and perhaps to conduct a separate and independent autopsy as well as depose witnesses and bring in experts. Epstein probably set up a legal fund to deal with all of the attorneys he was going to have to pay, but he was paying them to sit with him for hours on end at MCC for the last several weeks, as well as doing all of the normal legal work of a man facing federal prosecution. If those funds run out or if Epstein was paying them directly, his estate will have to pay for the investigation and it might get tied up in more pressing matters such as the avalanche of lawsuits coming from Epstein's victims.

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Perhaps his attorneys foresee a lawsuit of their own and think it will eventually be a self-funding effort. From what has already emerged, there seems to be ample grounds for a lawsuit over incompetence and fraud at MCC, and it might benefit some of the people detained in the facility now by forcing the government to properly staff and resource it. However, even if a jury was inclined to rule in favor of Epstein's team in a wrongful-death suit, how much would such a jury award in damages over the loss of Jeffrey F'in Epstein? Hope they don't mind post-mortem pro bono work.

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The threat of an independent investigation might also be a strategic bluff, or an overstatement; it will keep the Department of Justice on its toes as it conducts its own investigations into Epstein's death and the conditions at the MCC. Right now, everyone's antennae are up and no one's going to embrace any initial conclusions on the case until we see lots and lots of evidence for them.

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Prognightmare said:

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The Duke of York has arrived in Davos where he will make his first public statement about "sex abuse" allegations as it was claimed that he took part in an orgy with nine teenage girls.

Any hope the Duke may have had that he could put the allegations behind him with a speech at the World Economic Forum were dashed as his accuser, Virginia Roberts, made a series of lurid claims in her first sworn court statement.

She claimed the Duke had a "sexual interest in feet", that she had sex with him while his police protection officers sat in a car outside and that his friend Jeffrey Epstein, a convicted sex offender, was "collecting private information" about the Queen's son....

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30wedge said:

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So enlighten me. These "lean into" hangings, or strangulations, as opposed to dropping far enough to break your neck: how is it that as you lose the ability to breathe you do not fight and regain your breathing? He didn't have his hands tied behind him, I would assume those were free. Seems to me that it is similar to holding your breath until you die; you won't, you will take that breath.

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30wedge said:

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So enlighten me. These "lean into" hangings, or strangulations, as opposed to dropping far enough to break your neck: how is it that as you lose the ability to breathe you do not fight and regain your breathing? He didn't have his hands tied behind him, I would assume those were free. Seems to me that it is similar to holding your breath until you die; you won't, you will take that breath.

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.....Then there were his shoes, or to be more exact, the obviously expensive pair of black-velvet slippers he was wearing. As the attendee remembered them, one slipper prominently featured a large ostentatiously embroidered image of a screw on its top. The other displayed a large embroidered letter "U.".....

But what we don't really know is what inside Epstein's brain made him think he could get away with his crimes and then, by some accounts, flaunting this lifestyle after he left prison in 2009. I've been asking that question a lot lately to people who knew Epstein over the years, did business with him and considered him a friend.

Their answers almost uniformly come down to the message on his slippers: Epstein's entire life and business career were a big "screw you" to doubters, detractors and just about anyone else......

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drcrinum said:

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https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1161298044014477312.html

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drcrinum said:

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https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1161298044014477312.html

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Sarge 91 said:

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30wedge said:

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So enlighten me. These "lean into" hangings, or strangulations, as opposed to dropping far enough to break your neck: how is it that as you lose the ability to breathe you do not fight and regain your breathing? He didn't have his hands tied behind him, I would assume those were free. Seems to me that it is similar to holding your breath until you die; you won't, you will take that breath.

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There is a reason there are so many accidentally deaths with auto erotic asphyxiation enthusiasts. They have been conditioned to the experience of suffocating, so their bodies and minds do not have the same fight reflex as you or I would under those circumstances.

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But so far not a shred of evidence has come to light that this is the case, or that Epstein was a fan of auto-erotic asphyxiation (that i'm aware of anyway).

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TexasAggie_02 said:

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Tony Franklins Other Shoe said:

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I would really like to see Mythbusters try the swan dive off a five foot high bunk bed. That seems really implausible to me with bed sheets twirled up for a makeshift noose.

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that, and how high are the ceilings in those cells?

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