****Cowboys 2016 Offseason Thread***

212,922 Views | 2475 Replies | Last: 8 yr ago by jr15aggie
RedlineAg08
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quote:
Manning
Brady
Palmer
Cam

Those were your final four guys and weren't three of them 1-1's?

Yes its true that Brady and Romo are rare finds, and so is Russ to an extent, but those are the exception not the rule. The large majority of quality guys are high draft picks. The fact that teams whiff more often than not shouldn't be used as an argument to just look mid round...the point is the good teams are generally getting a high pick guy and making something out of him.

I agree with you on that. But the Cowboys aren't winning anything without Romo because the team has holes on defense that won't be overcome with a good rookie QB if Romo falls.

Let's first agree that with Romo, this team has a shot at the Super Bowl. You agree with that?

Without him, you're rebuilding because there are about 5 guys in the league that can win with the Cowboys roster as is. So, use the high draft picks to rebuild the team from the inside out, pick up a mid round guy because you need a backup QB. If he sucks, you're not really out much. If he develops well, then you're set. (This is the year to draft a mid-round QB. There are tons of decent ones.)
If Romo goes down this year, or next, you're team is going to fail on the back of the mid-round QB and you'll get a top flight QB in that draft with a much better foundation for him to succeed. Or he'll prove to be a stud, and you just got a cheap QB and the added talent at other positions.
BassCowboy33
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And I really get worn out on the 'draft a guy in the 3rd or 4th' to develop. Good grief that is just wasting a pick.
Well you're going to stay worn out then. It's likely you waste a 1st round pick on them too.. Drafting and missing on a 1st round QB is a death sentence. We're not in the position to risk that kind of fate.

Off the top of my head, teams that were loaded at most other positions, and plugged a QB in and had success success:

49ers with Kaepernick
Seahawks with Russell
Green Bay with Favre
Ravens with Dilfer
Rams with Warner & Bulger
Tampa Bay with Johnson

I'm tired of thinking but I'm sure the list goes on...
1. Favre was a 2nd Round Pick and would have been a first if not for worries about his being an alcoholic.

2.It's become clear that Kaepernick is beyond awful to the point where he was benched for Blaine Gabbert. His success was either flash-in-the-pan or should be credited to Harbaugh getting the most out of a gy who can't seem to hit the broadside of a barn.

3. Dilfer...did you ever see this guy play? He played a grand total of one season in Baltimore and won a Super Bowl on the back of the greatest defense in NFL history.Over the course of his career, he threw 0.5 more INTs per game than he did touchdowns. He even had a 4 touchdown, 18 interception season.

4. Warner was never supposed to see the field. He wasn't there to be a "developed guy". He was there to back up Trent Green.

5. Bulger had a decent career, but never managed more than a 24 TD season. Plus, he finished his career with a 41-54 record (all with the Rams).His career rating is a decent 84.4.

6. Johnson lost his starting job to 41 year old Randall Cunningham (who had been installing tile in Las Vegas before getting a call from the Vikings). Cunningham would go on to win MVP. He had two seasons where his rating was above 90.0. He won a Super Bowl on the back of that vicious defense led by Sapp and Brooks in 2002. He was basically a glorified game manager. For a 9th Round pick, he was obviously successful, but the kind of guy you want to build a team around.

7. Russell Wilson is very good.
Exactly.. Kaepernick sucks, Dilfer sucked, Bulger wasn't all taht great, Johnson wasn't great either... They played alongside great talent and managed the game and won alot.

The others are great guys, but they also joined GREAT teams and GREAT coaching staffs that led to their success.
Right, Dallas doesn't have that. Nobody is arguing that. What we are arguing is that taking a defender at #4 will not have Super Bowl repercussions this coming season or in the future. Super Bowls are won over time and Dallas has consistently botched their mid and late round picks.

You want to draft Jalen Ramsey? Fine, I'm cool with that. The back four is definitely an uncertainty; however, this team isn't built to win with defense and hasn't been for twenty years. This team will live and die by how the quarterback plays (and that's not exclusive to Dallas). That's exacerbated by the "win now" philosophy. It's much easier to build around a solid foundation than to try and shove a foundation under a crumbling house. It would be prudent to draft your future in Rd1, then spend the next 3-4 years building on that foundation.
corleoneAg99
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AG
quote:
quote:
Manning
Brady
Palmer
Cam

Those were your final four guys and weren't three of them 1-1's?

Yes its true that Brady and Romo are rare finds, and so is Russ to an extent, but those are the exception not the rule. The large majority of quality guys are high draft picks. The fact that teams whiff more often than not shouldn't be used as an argument to just look mid round...the point is the good teams are generally getting a high pick guy and making something out of him.

I agree with you on that. But the Cowboys aren't winning anything without Romo because the team has holes on defense that won't be overcome with a good rookie QB if Romo falls.

Let's first agree that with Romo, this team has a shot at the Super Bowl. You agree with that?

Without him, you're rebuilding because there are about 5 guys in the league that can win with the Cowboys roster as is. So, use the high draft picks to rebuild the team from the inside out, pick up a mid round guy because you need a backup QB. If he sucks, you're not really out much. If he develops well, then you're set. (This is the year to draft a mid-round QB. There are tons of decent ones.)
If Romo goes down this year, or next, you're team is going to fail on the back of the mid-round QB and you'll get a top flight QB in that draft with a much better foundation for him to succeed. Or he'll prove to be a stud, and you just got a cheap QB and the added talent at other positions.
You, sir, are Jerry's current inner dialogue IMO. And that's totally cool and certainly a viable point of view.

I'd only correct one thing you said.

The Cowboys have a shot at the SB with a healthy Tony Romo. The degree to which you think it's possible he stays healthy long enough to get them there is obviously a different opinion for each one of us.
RedlineAg08
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My preference is Shaq Lawson, A'Shawn Robinson, Nkemdiche, or Bosa.. I think Bosa at his worst is still going to help our defense. We really need to get rid of Nick Hayden though...

One of those picks could help Dallas win the Super Bowl next year, and would continue to help anchor the defense for years to come.
BassCowboy33
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If we know anything about Jerry, quarterback is probably just above Mickey Mouse on his draft board.
BassCowboy33
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quote:
My preference is Shaq Lawson, A'Shawn Robinson, Nkemdiche, or Bosa.. I think Bosa at his worst is still going to help our defense. We really need to get rid of Nick Hayden though...

One of those picks could help Dallas win the Super Bowl next year, and would continue to help anchor the defense for years to come.
You want a reach? Draft any of those first three and prepare to absolutely excoriated by any NFL expert. Many don't have Nkemdiche going until late first - early 2nd, Robinson in the mid-late first round, and Lawson as a mid first round pick.
RedlineAg08
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Manning
Brady
Palmer
Cam

Those were your final four guys and weren't three of them 1-1's?

Yes its true that Brady and Romo are rare finds, and so is Russ to an extent, but those are the exception not the rule. The large majority of quality guys are high draft picks. The fact that teams whiff more often than not shouldn't be used as an argument to just look mid round...the point is the good teams are generally getting a high pick guy and making something out of him.

I agree with you on that. But the Cowboys aren't winning anything without Romo because the team has holes on defense that won't be overcome with a good rookie QB if Romo falls.

Let's first agree that with Romo, this team has a shot at the Super Bowl. You agree with that?

Without him, you're rebuilding because there are about 5 guys in the league that can win with the Cowboys roster as is. So, use the high draft picks to rebuild the team from the inside out, pick up a mid round guy because you need a backup QB. If he sucks, you're not really out much. If he develops well, then you're set. (This is the year to draft a mid-round QB. There are tons of decent ones.)
If Romo goes down this year, or next, you're team is going to fail on the back of the mid-round QB and you'll get a top flight QB in that draft with a much better foundation for him to succeed. Or he'll prove to be a stud, and you just got a cheap QB and the added talent at other positions.
You, sir, are Jerry's current inner dialogue IMO. And that's totally cool and certainly a viable point of view.

I'd only correct one thing you said.

The Cowboys have a shot at the SB with a healthy Tony Romo. The degree to which you think it's possible he stays healthy long enough to get them there is obviously a different opinion for each one of us.
That is where we disagree. I BELIEVE in Romo.. If they do draft a QB#4 then I wish they'd send Romo off to Denver Maybe Elway would give us a good pick for him.
corleoneAg99
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AG
I'd think DL would be fine but I think it would have to be a DE like Bosa...love A'Shawn but Marinelli doesn't believe in high pick 1 techs and I'm not sure about Lawson in terms of scheme fit. But he's a heck of a player for sure.
corleoneAg99
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Oh and I'm out on Nkemdiche unless it's late first...DL is too deep this year to take a guy with red flags high.
RedlineAg08
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quote:
quote:
My preference is Shaq Lawson, A'Shawn Robinson, Nkemdiche, or Bosa.. I think Bosa at his worst is still going to help our defense. We really need to get rid of Nick Hayden though...

One of those picks could help Dallas win the Super Bowl next year, and would continue to help anchor the defense for years to come.
You want a reach? Draft any of those first three and prepare to absolutely excoriated by any NFL expert. Many don't have Nkemdiche going until late first - early 2nd, Robinson in the mid-late first round, and Lawson as a mid first round pick.

Nkemdiche has trended down lately, the most recent one by Kiper has him late 1st. Before he stopped playing football he was a top 5 pick... As was Robinson and Bosa. Remember the whole pump and dump thing they do after the games finish up.. I think the draft experts are full of ****. The league is won in the trenches and those are the best trench guys in the draft in my opinion. We need trench guys, so that'd be my picks.

And I would run Nkemdiche through the ringer before I picked him at #4. He's talented enough for it, but he'd have to make me a real believer or I'd go with one of the other 3.
corleoneAg99
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AG
PFF's top 10:

Bosa
Buckner
Goff
Wentz
Tunsil
Jack
Ramsey
C.Jones
Rankins
C.Coleman
Orlando Ayala Cant Read
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Would not touch Nkemdeche or Lawson at 4. Thats way too high for either. Honestly Im not feeling Bosa either at 4. Maybe at 7 or later on him for me personally. Id be fine with Ramsey at 4.

Id really be fine with a trade down a few spots that nets us another 2. As long as its not more than a few spots. Theres great value between picks 8 and 15 imo.
Macarthur
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One other thing to consider as it relates to Goff.

With this OL and assuming a healthy Dez, I think Goff can be good enough in year one to help this team win some games if Romo misses a few. If Romo is down for 12 or 15 games, Goff probably can't get them in the tournament, but I truly believe that today, he is better than what they had last year behind Tony.
corleoneAg99
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He might be but I think at least part of the problem with any backup to Romo is Garrett and Linehan pull the reigns WAY back. One read and if it's not perfectly wide open check down to the back or throw away/sack.

What Goff is capable of is easy something you wouldn't get to see.
BassCowboy33
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He might be but I think at least part of the problem with any backup to Romo is Garrett and Linehan pull the reigns WAY back. One read and if it's not perfectly wide open check down to the back or throw away/sack.

What Goff is capable of is easy something you wouldn't get to see.


John Kitna did pretty well in the system. Kellen Moore threw for 435 in Week 17. If Goff is good, he'll thrive.
corleoneAg99
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AG
quote:
quote:
He might be but I think at least part of the problem with any backup to Romo is Garrett and Linehan pull the reigns WAY back. One read and if it's not perfectly wide open check down to the back or throw away/sack.

What Goff is capable of is easy something you wouldn't get to see.


John Kitna did pretty well in the system. Kellen Moore threw for 435 in Week 17. If Goff is good, he'll thrive.


Kitna was pretty long ago.

And Moore was only let go when the season was obviously done for.

We can agree to disagree.
BMX Bandit
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DannyDuberstein
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4th failed drug test

Who makes up that rising star DL someone was referencing above? Randy Gregory is a rising star on High Times.
RedlineAg08
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All the more reason to go DLine.
BassCowboy33
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quote:
All the more reason to go DLine.


D line has extreme depth in the draft, especially on the interior. It'd be a terrible waste to draft one at #4 unless Bosa falls.
DannyDuberstein
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Having to spend a high pick 2 years in a row to fill one DE position would be very Jerry though.
Agnzona
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I thought pot is not addictive?
DannyDuberstein
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Someone hide Randy Gregory from the researchers trying to prove that theory.
BassCowboy33
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I thought pot is not addictive?


The NIDA estimates that 9% of all weed smoker are addicted.
BassCowboy33
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Having to spend a high pick 2 years in a row to fill one DE position would be very Jerry though.


[shudders]
Ryan34
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AG
quote:
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All the more reason to go DLine.


D line has extreme depth in the draft, especially on the interior. It'd be a terrible waste to draft one at #4 unless Bosa falls.

Spending a high pick on a DL is not a waste, even in deep drafts. DL is enough of a premium position that a "deep" draft just means unusually high number of first round picks get used in DL, not that you get first round caliber DL in the second.
corleoneAg99
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DT is very deep but we know what Marinelli thinks of 1 techs and TCraw is locked up.
BassCowboy33
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quote:
quote:
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All the more reason to go DLine.


D line has extreme depth in the draft, especially on the interior. It'd be a terrible waste to draft one at #4 unless Bosa falls.

Spending a high pick on a DL is not a waste, even in deep drafts. DL is enough of a premium position that a "deep" draft just means unusually high number of first round picks get used in DL, not that you get first round caliber DL in the second.


You misread me. Interior Dline has far and away the best depth of any position in EVERY draft. The number of all pro/above average interior lineman that get taken in mid-late rounds is eye raising.

Basically, what I mean is that the caliber of interior lineman you get in rounds 3-5 is much, much better than, say, wide recievers/QBs/LBs. Running backs also possess very good mid round value.

Not to mention that Dallas had a Top 10 run defense and just paid Crawford tons of money. You'd hope they would have the confidence to address the pass rush if they did go d line; but, like Danny said, at some point you get into Matt Millen territory by just trying to take the same position over and over.
RedlineAg08
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They stole a 1st round guy in the 2nd round. It was a risk worth taking.. You're not Matt Millen for drafting a DLineman in the 1st round for the first time since Marcus Spears.

Am I right, its been since Marcus Spears??

If we used your line of thinking no interior dlinemen would be drafted until the 7th round...

We have dramatically different views of how to build a team and I think we're never going to agree on anything..
RedlineAg08
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DT is very deep but we know what Marinelli thinks of 1 techs and TCraw is locked up.


So if Marcell Dareus is available, we should pass on him bc "he's a 1-tech"? Good players make plays. There are a couple of guys here that are strong enough to eat blocks and hold the line, but also talented enough to blow thru those blocks and make plays. And I dont want to see Nick Hayden out there anymore.
BassCowboy33
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They stole a 1st round guy in the 2nd round. It was a risk worth taking.. You're not Matt Millen for drafting a DLineman in the 1st round for the first time since Marcus Spears.

Am I right, its been since Marcus Spears??

If we used your line of thinking no interior dlinemen would be drafted until the 7th round...

We have dramatically different views of how to build a team and I think we're never going to agree on anything..


Not what I said and you know it. Don't put words in my mouth, please.
Ryan34
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AG
Dallas did not have a top 10 run defense. Not even close. They were 22nd in yards allowed per game, 19th in yards/carry allowed, and allowed the 2nd most rushing first downs in the league.

Inability to stop the run was a big reason why they had so much trouble with impact plays. They had the 2nd fewest pass attempts against in the league (7th most rushing attempts against). Hard to get sacks and INTs when teams aren't throwing the ball.
Orlando Ayala Cant Read
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Sign a DE in Free Agency and then if one falls into your lap as BPA on draft day, so be it take him too.
misterguinness
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Would the Boys consider Bruce Irvin?
BassCowboy33
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quote:
Dallas did not have a top 10 run defense. Not even close. They were 22nd in yards allowed per game, 19th in yards/carry allowed, and allowed the 2nd most rushing first downs in the league.

Inability to stop the run was a big reason why they had so much trouble with impact plays. They had the 2nd fewest pass attempts against in the league (7th most rushing attempts against). Hard to get sacks and INTs when teams aren't throwing the ball.
Do forgive, my clickage failed me on ESPN. The point remains valid.
 
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