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Bender's Big AR-15 & Semi Auto Shilling Thread

539,536 Views | 2919 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by robstrom
Puryear Playboy
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Lots of assumptions in that answer...like assuming that retreat is a possibility.

Or that the fight is over because you decide it's over.

If you don't give yourself options...you won't have any options.
BenderRodriguez
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Puryear Playboy said:

Lots of assumptions in that answer...like assuming that retreat is a possibility.

Or that the fight is over because you decide it's over.

If you don't give yourself options...you won't have any options.

Lighthearted snide remark: Lots of failure to read here. Maybe some backup eyes are an option worth looking at.

In all seriousness: Switching to pistol. Point shooting with failed/broken optic. Disengaging. I don't see where there weren't options listed, in response to what is already a highly improbable scenario for me: engaging a threat at distance with an AR, when I have an optic fail, necessitating the use of BUIS.

If I'm using a $60 chinese red dot, back up irons are a damned good idea. If I'm using an ACOG, optics failure is pretty low on my list of worries. Not to mention that from reading stuff from people who would know, the failure rate of rifles themselves has been much higher than the failure rate of ACOGs during the GWOT, so I guess I should really be carrying a second AR instead of BUIS.

You and many other disagree, and that's fine. I see BUIS in the same way I view DA/SA pistols. They're not a bad way of doing things, but the main reason they exist and continue to be popular is hold overs from old ways of doing things who wanted some sort of comfort blanket to aid the transition. Folks used to revolvers liked a long DA pull on their newfangled semi automatic pistols, folks used to iron sights want that as a back up option to quality optics. Meh. Use them if you want to use them, but I don't view them as a must have item at all if you're using an ACOG.
TheCougarHunter
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BenderRodriguez said:

Puryear Playboy said:

Lots of assumptions in that answer...like assuming that retreat is a possibility.

Or that the fight is over because you decide it's over.

If you don't give yourself options...you won't have any options.

Lighthearted snide remark: Lots of failure to read here. Maybe some backup eyes are an option worth looking at.

In all seriousness: Switching to pistol. Point shooting with failed/broken optic. Disengaging. I don't see where there weren't options listed, in response to what is already a highly improbable scenario for me: engaging a threat at distance with an AR, when I have an optic fail, necessitating the use of BUIS.

If I'm using a $60 chinese red dot, back up irons are a damned good idea. If I'm using an ACOG, optics failure is pretty low on my list of worries. Not to mention that from reading stuff from people who would know, the failure rate of rifles themselves has been much higher than the failure rate of ACOGs during the GWOT, so I guess I should really be carrying a second AR instead of BUIS.

You and many other disagree, and that's fine. I see BUIS in the same way I view DA/SA pistols. They're not a bad way of doing things, but the main reason they exist and continue to be popular is hold overs from old ways of doing things who wanted some sort of comfort blanket to aid the transition. Folks used to revolvers liked a long DA pull on their newfangled semi automatic pistols, folks used to iron sights want that as a back up option to quality optics. Meh. Use them if you want to use them, but I don't view them as a must have item at all if you're using an ACOG.



One day at the range it rained heavily on us and it was a hot day and we were doing table 2 qual. My ACOG fogged up so bad on my M4 that I could barely see the target 25m in front of me. That won't happen to iron sights.
Puryear Playboy
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No snide comments intended. It's a specialty of mine though if you would like some...

As far as reading goes...what I read was that your plan has two components...

1. My shyt won't break.
2. If it does, I will soldier on andcwin the rifle fight with a pistol.

You can write another three paragraph 1000 word post if you want, but if 1& 2 above are in your TO&E for fighting with a rifle there's not much more to say to you.

Murphy is real. And he is out there...waiting.
maverick2076
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I've spent 18 years in the Army, the last 14 of which were in supply...which means I handled all of our weapons, optics and the maintenance that went along with them. In all those years, including 2 deployments to Iraq, I have seen far more broken BUIS's than I have CCO's or ACOGs. Biggest problem on CCO's was the power knob coming off, although you could still turn it on by twisting the little post. I've seen less than 10, and probably less than 5, that were actually inoperable. Of those, at least two were caused directly by soldier error, attempting to force the windage and elevation adjustments past their extremes. One was a broken mount, caused by a soldier over tightening it with a gerber.

I have seen exactly 1 ACOG fail. You couldn't adjust wind age or elevation on it.

On the other hand, I must've thrown out and replaced probably 100 BUIS's. when your backup sight is less dependable than your primary sight, it isn't much of a backup.
TheCougarHunter
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Yes. Iron sights also won't fog up so bad you can't use them.
CharlieBrown17
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I guess a trained monkey can break anything but I'm struggling to see how you break buis if they're folded down and out of use
maverick2076
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A lot of times they break when you unfold them. The little piece that stops the spring loaded rear aperture when it springs up is a weak point, and it fails surprisingly often, letting the sight aperture go 15-20 degrees past vertical. I've also seen the spring fail so it won't pop up quite a bit. That's not counting the dumb Joe issues like stripping adjustment screws, breaking mounts, etc.
BenderRodriguez
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Puryear Playboy said:

No snide comments intended. It's a specialty of mine though if you would like some...

As far as reading goes...what I read was that your plan has two components...

1. My shyt won't break.
2. If it does, I will soldier on andcwin the rifle fight with a pistol.

You can write another three paragraph 1000 post if you want, but if 1& 2 above are in your TO&E for fighting with a rifle there's not much more to say to you.

Murphy is real. And he is out there...waiting.

Not much more to say, indeed. I know who you are, I know you've interacted with some great instructors and done great work with the CCMU. I don't lightly discount your advice on shooting.

But given that you're a knowledgeable guy, when you mock transitioning to pistol if the rifle has issues when every instructor I can think of teaches exactly that, it lets me know that you're not really interested in discussing or debating the merits of BUIS paired with good optics, just in continuing to argue and score points by discounting what I say regardless of merit. BCGs fail far more often than quality optics do. I sure hope you're carrying an extra one to slap in if yours goes down. After all, Murphy is waiting and transitioning to pistols is silly.

Use BUIS if you want, no skin off my nose. There are plenty of people who don't think they're necessary. But I'm sure they all have no idea what they're talking about, like the guy who carried and used this gun without BUIS.


Naveronski
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Visible laser in that setup serves as a backup aiming device.
AGricola08
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Not trying to side track here.... but what is the Murphy business about?
Naveronski
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Murphy's law.

Whatever can go wrong, will.
AGricola08
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Ahhhhhh. Ha Gotcha, thanks. I was thinking through recent events, etc, but that didn't pop in the head
CactusThomas
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I was a SDM in Iraq - acog, no buis on my rifle.

Of course, I didn't have a pistol either.
CharlieBrown17
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Those all make sense, just never thought about it
CharlieBrown17
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Also I really wanted to do a true to the era Vietnam build but jesus parts for one are expensive
maverick2076
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It's counterintuitive that a simple mechanical sight would be less reliable than I high tech electronic or magnified optic. At least, it is until you realize that a few ounces of pot metal and a spring is simply not a robust solution.

If you want a really dependable BUIS, use a removable carry handle. Zero the sight, pull it off and keep it in your kit. That's a backup you can depend on. It's not fast by any means, but it damn sure won't break.
Puryear Playboy
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Sorry man, I don't do fan boy, so I don't know who's guns those were. And I occasionally forget this is an Internet forum.

Everyone makes choices. Not everyone makes the best choices.

As far transition goes, I teach it and advocate it. In fact it is an extremely valuable skill...when you MUST do it. In December I even had the guy who two months previously had retired and taken off the uniform after 26 years, his last assignment was two years of running the "school house" on Range 37 (at Bragg). Not just instructing there...running it. After an hour on the square range when my guy's and girls were doing check drills and hot hanging transitions he turned to me and said "I can't believe how f-ing good they are on pistol!" And rifle. His next comment was that any of my cadets would embarrass any of his graduates on their last day on R37.

So yeah. I do know a bit.

What I also know is that I am not transitioning off a functioning rifle to a pistol unless I absolutely have to. So I don't know who your bud is with that rifle, but you won't see many at Bragg or Campbell without BUIS.

I run fixed irons. They are always there whether the dot is or not. The guys at the top end of the food chain do to...or they run flips and pop them up when the party starts.

Run an ACOG? Cool. A QD mount is also cheap insurance. Transitioning to a pistol keeps you in the fight and projecting negitive energy. It's not a huge loss since your team will still be hot around you and bringing the hate at the same time with their rifles. You do have a team... right?

And how useful to them will you be for the rest of the fight while you Point shoot your rifle and run your 9mm suppressing the guy with an RPK? Maybe one of you teammates will loan you a spare ACOG...oh, wait.

You don't have a team. You got you. You have others around you who may live or die based on what you can or can't do. No team just them. When your kids, or wife, or whoever look to you to Save The Day...you have the rest of your life (literally) to solve the problem.

This isn't a game we are talking about. It's not a stage in a match. You guys building rifles and wanting to learn to fight with them had better learn that there is no such thing as a fair fight. No do overs. No overwatch. No rear security. You want to take half a rifle to the fight? Don't be surprised when you are the half that doesn't win.

CactusThomas
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This is getting weird.
BreNayPop
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All this machismo and comparing gun knowledge size is giving me a hard on.
CharlieBrown17
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BreNayPop said:

All this machismo and comparing gun knowledge size is giving me a hard on.
Now its a party
CharlieBrown17
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http://www.nodakspud.com/AR%20Lowers.htm

Pretty neat website with lots of different model lowers and uppers for old clone builds but ,like I said, pricey
GeeBee
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I'm going to put this out there before it gets really weird...please no d pics!
BreNayPop
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I love my middie, love my dissy, but would probably part with my 18in grabagun from CMMG. At the time, i thought the 18in would be an ideal middle of the road between 20 and 16. Now, i just see it as an unnecessary step child side show.

Anybody recommend a reason to go 18 instead of standard 16 or 20?

And yes, talking about 5.56, but would be interested to hear about 300blk or .308 applications as well.
txyaloo
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Good post.

Those guns were carried by one of the DEVGRU guys who claimed to kill Bin Laden. He was on the raid but didn't really take the shot. IIRC, that picture was in his book.
MTxTwelve
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Naveronski said:

Visible IR laser in that setup serves as a backup primary aiming device.
FIFY


Quote:

Good post.

Those guns were carried by one of the DEVGRU guys who claimed to kill Bin Laden. He was on the raid but didn't really take the shot. IIRC, that picture was in his book.
Those belong to Mark Owen aka Matt Bissonnette - who I don't think has ever claimed to have shot UBL, but he was on the mission (obviously). The dead giveaway is the pirate gun which is pure sex.
MTxTwelve
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CactusThomas said:

This is getting weird.
Agreed. It is entertaining, though.
El Chupacabra
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The likelihood of being in a full on firefight is about 0. So there is about 0 chance of BUIS (or optic) failing in a firefight.
26.2
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Why does the owner of that sawed of shotty have a red dot on it?
Average Joe
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So wait. When the terrorists send an assassination team to my house, what am I supposed to use? ACOG? BUIS? Fixed?

Y'all are way overthinking this.
Average Joe
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You don't have one on your's?

Noob.
Puryear Playboy
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Don't be silly. You use the claymore's in the flower pots on the front porch.

It's hard to hide the wires though, and the rib keeps moving them around...
AgLA06
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26.2 said:

Why does the owner of that sawed of shotty have a red dot on it?


Shotgun or grenade launcher?
3rdGenAg05
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Pretty sure that's a chopped up M79 grenade launcher; the predecessor to the M203. That's a sweet little pocket cannon, but it'd kick like a mother.
The site does look like a reflex, but usually it would be a leaf site.
TheCougarHunter
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Average Joe said:

So wait. When the terrorists send an assassination team to my house, what am I supposed to use? ACOG? BUIS? Fixed?

Y'all are way overthinking this.


Why even have an AR then? Just to shoot beer cans? Might as well have one that is ready for serious use. Otherwise it's just a toy and you should have saved your money and bought a .22
 
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