*****Official Jan 6th Committee Hearing Thread*****

150,496 Views | 2038 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by Funky Winkerbean
Carolin_Gallego
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Proc92 said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

MouthBQ98 said:

The whole thing is a farce: the party whose ideology endorses revolutionary, even violent change in government is accusing the party that resists changes to the form and process of government of trying to overthrow the legitimate process of government.

It's just laughable from the start, and that's how you know it is also a contrived narrative constructed around only select data.

So we are ignoring the fact that Trump consistently said Mike Pence should not follow the legitimate process of our government? He still says Mike should have never certified the election.
there was no basis, even if would have ultimately been proven wrong in a court since the issue just like had not be ruled upon, for arguing that pence had a role as trump posited? S
Irrelevant. As dumb and inept as you think Trump's plan might be, the attempt to get Mike Pence to not follow the legitimate process of our government is right there in the public record.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
MouthBQ98
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AG
aggiehawg said:

Quote:

The Washington Commanders fined defensive coordinator Jack Del Rio $100,000 after his comments this week comparing the 2020 protests in the wake of the death of George Floyd to the insurrection at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.

The team announced Friday that Commanders coach Ron Rivera levied the fine on Del Rio, which will be donated to the United States Capitol Police Memorial Fund.

"This morning I met with Coach Del Rio to express how disappointed I am in his comments on Wednesday," Rivera said in a statement. "His comments do not reflect the organization's views and are extremely hurtful to our great community here in the DMV.

As we saw last night in the hearings, what happened on the Capitol on January 6, 2021 was an act of domestic terrorism. A group of citizens attempted to overturn the results of a free and fair election, and as a result, lives were lost and the Capitol building was damaged.

Coach Del Rio did apologize for his comments on Wednesday and he understands the distinction between the events of that dark day and peaceful protests, which are a hallmark of our democracy. He does have the right to voice his opinion as a citizen of the United States and it most certainly is his constitutional right to do so.

However, words have consequences and his words hurt a lot of people in our community. I want to make it clear that our organization will not tolerate any equivalency between those who demanded justice in the wake of George Floyd's murder and the actions of those on January 6 who sought to topple our government.
Link


Screw the nfl. I'm tired of their political BS. Barely watched last year. Don't even care this year.
MouthBQ98
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aggiehawg said:

Quote:

Notice to All House Staff:

As you know, the first of several publicly televised hearings surrounding the events of January 6, 2021, occurred yesterday evening. These hearings include graphic new footage and testimony related to the breach of the U.S. Capitol, which may be naturally unsettling or even re-triggering to some individuals within our community.

Please know that the professional counseling staff of the Office of Employee Assistance (OEA) are here to provide confidential support and problem resolution for individuals and teams impacted by these events or other stressors they may be experiencing.

Connecting with the OEA is as easy as calling 202-225-2400 or sending an email to schedule services or request immediate consultation, if needed. The OEA has also developed a toolkit to help managers and employees navigate stress and trauma in the workplace as staff continue to cope with the residual impact of these events. This toolkit can be downloaded for your own personal use and can be accessed on the OEA page on HouseNet.

More information about the resources, services, and offerings provided by the OEA can also be found on the OEA page on HouseNet.

Be well, and thank you for your continued service to the House.
House members need counseling from just watching the hearing?


Absolutely pathetic. Leaders of the people should never be so weak.
I Sold DeSantis Lifts
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Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

MouthBQ98 said:

The whole thing is a farce: the party whose ideology endorses revolutionary, even violent change in government is accusing the party that resists changes to the form and process of government of trying to overthrow the legitimate process of government.

It's just laughable from the start, and that's how you know it is also a contrived narrative constructed around only select data.

So we are ignoring the fact that Trump consistently said Mike Pence should not follow the legitimate process of our government? He still says Mike should have never certified the election.
there was no basis, even if would have ultimately been proven wrong in a court since the issue just like had not be ruled upon, for arguing that pence had a role as trump posited? S
Irrelevant. As dumb and inept as you think Trump's plan might be, the attempt to get Mike Pence to not follow the legitimate process of our government is right there in the public record.


Now you're talking facts rather than emotion. You need to stop
Proc92
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"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
1872walker
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tysker
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Carolin_Gallego said:

Im Gipper said:

Oh stop!

These rioters were never any threat to anything. They are mostly a rag tag bunch of losers that accomplished nothing other than a criminal record.

Trump trying to subvert the rule of law to stay in power also failed massively. His fake elector plan was rejected by everyone that mattered.





There was some threat. I'm glad you acknowledge Trump's concerted effort to break the law.

Was it more or less of danger to those inside than, say, a Travis Scott concert?
nortex97
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I'm not paying any attention to this but when does Ray Epps testify?

Beyond cooperating with CCP-Dems, has the FBI ever confirmed how many agents/CHS were present on J6?

We know there were at least 20 federal 'assets' at the capitol.
aggiehawg
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Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
No, it is not settled law. There has never been a challenge to the Electoral Count Act. Regular voters have a general interest but a not a specific enough interest to achieve standing to challenge the law.

Only a Presidential candidate would have a specific enough interest to challenge it. And in modern history the only time a candidate was in a position to challenge before 2020 was Gore in 2000. But it was sooo close to working out the other way had the SCOTUS not stepped in and ended the legal challenges in Florida in a one off decision that was not intended as precedent.

Now flip the make-up of the states in 2000 where Dems controlled more state houses than the GOP did? And under the 12th that would have flipped the election to Gore? What would have happened then? Or consider SCOTUS stays out and Katherine Harris as Sec State cannot certify the vote because of ongoing legal challenges, so the Governor sends a slate of electors? As in Jeb Bush?

Under the Electoral Count Act, Jeb's slate of electors would be dispositive. So clearly this is not well settled law.

On the facts in 2000, Gore making such a challenge would not have changed the outcome. But that in no way means the law foreclosed any challenges ever. Gore himself said as much. A challenge on Jan 6th, 2001 would not have flipped the election to him. So he didn't do it.
richardag
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nortex97 said:

I'm not paying any attention to this but when does Ray Epps testify?

Beyond cooperating with CCP-Dems, has the FBI ever confirmed how many agents/CHS were present on J6?

We know there were at least 20 federal 'assets' at the capitol.
The facts you post are scrubbed from the media, ignored by the FBI and DOJ.

THIS complete utter unconstitutional farce is being perpetrated on the American citizens by corrupted, unethical Democratic Party leadership with the complicit aid of the news media.

Anyone who believes this is acceptable has not studied history.
Among the latter, under pretence of governing they have divided their nations into two classes, wolves and sheep.”
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Edward Carrington, January 16, 1787
CanyonAg77
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Quote:

Anyone who believes this is acceptable has not studied history.
Or they have studied history, and chose power over their country.
Carolin_Gallego
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Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
aggiehawg
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Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Carolin_Gallego
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aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Go on. How would the 12th Amendment legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021?
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
zag213004
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tysker said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Im Gipper said:

Oh stop!

These rioters were never any threat to anything. They are mostly a rag tag bunch of losers that accomplished nothing other than a criminal record.

Trump trying to subvert the rule of law to stay in power also failed massively. His fake elector plan was rejected by everyone that mattered.





There was some threat. I'm glad you acknowledge Trump's concerted effort to break the law.

Was it more or less of danger to those inside than, say, a Travis Scott concert?


Looks like a bunch of ferals to me
Proc92
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Carolin_Gallego said:

aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Go on. How would the 12th Amendment legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021?
What do you mean by "legally"? And what is the consequence for trump arguing for but failing to meet your definition?
Carolin_Gallego
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A legal basis to the argument.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
Carolin_Gallego
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Seems like Trump thinks almost everyone from his administration "checked out" or "sucked". What happened to "only the best people"?
In response to Ivanka discrediting her father's election fraud claim, Trump said, "Ivanka Trump was not involved in looking at, or studying, Election results. She had long since checked out and was, in my opinion, only trying to be respectful to Bill Barr and his position as Attorney General (he sucked!)."
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
Watermelon Man
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Carolin_Gallego said:

aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Go on. How would the 12th Amendment legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021?
Can't you read plain English? It's right here:

Quote:

...the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed;
So, you see, by using the word "shall" it is obvious they meant "if he wants to and there's nothing you can do about it."

OK, I'm joking. There is nothing in the 12th amendment that relieves the President of the Senate from his assigned duty. Now, that's not to say that some lawyer can't try to suggest the opposite, but to maintain that Pence had no obligation to open and count the votes is to ignore the requirements of the US Constitution (a document Loser Donny swore to uphold).

Regardless of your ability to understand the written word, however, an attack on the US Congress while it is in session is not authorized by the US Constitution.

Carolin_Gallego
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That's some heavy trolling. Don't strain yourself.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
Rockdoc
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AG
No sweat!
Carolin_Gallego
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And that's why I love you so much, doc.
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
Maroon Dawn
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Carolin! You finally showed back up to try and salvage your propaganda thread!

Good!

Now you can finally answer my question that you've been avoiding for 12 pages!

Is storming the Capital and cornering members of Congress in elevators and bathrooms to threaten them as part of an illegal attempt to try and to stop a legitimate government proceeding an act of sedition when it's purpose is to overthrow the free and fair election of a government official vital to this governments function?

Yes or No?

Can't wait for your answer

BusterAg
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Carolin_Gallego said:

Clob94 said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Gigem314 said:

Malibu2 said:

Anyone want to respond why it took Trump more than an hour to do anything productive to try to stop it?
He preemptively offered national guard assistance and additional security to the Capitol Police and Nancy Pelosi rejected it. Still waiting for the left to respond as to why their leaders didn't care enough to accept additional security.
Pence -- not Trump -- asked Guard troops to help defend Capitol on Jan. 6
Clob checks his notes--

Yup-- Pence was definitely a part of the Trump administration.

So what's your next bit of poppycock and gobbledygook?

Check your notes again.

Pence rejected Trump's plan. And Trump made his dissatisfaction known to the rioters by tweeting,

Quote:

Mike Pence didn't have the courage to do what should have been done to protect our Country and our Constitution.

Soon after, rioters in the Capitol were searching for Pence yelling "Hang Mike Pence!"

So what's your next bit?
Ray Epps was outside of the building on January 5th literally telling people "we need to break into the capitol building".

Why hasn't Ray Epps been tried? Where is he in all of this.

Trump never said "we need to go into the capitol building". Only Ray Epps did. Very clearly. Multiple times.

Where is he?
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
Proc92
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Carolin_Gallego said:

A legal basis to the argument.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/09/21/politics/read-eastman-memo/index.html

Here is what one of his lawyers wrote on the issue.
Rockdoc
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Carolin_Gallego said:

And that's why I love you so much, doc.

Thanks. Fewer words are better don't ya think?
Carolin_Gallego
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You are so forgetful. We did this song and dance.

I respond to your illogical question,
How can I answer for the actions of other people? Wouldn't that be a question for one of Donald Trump's AGs? Jeff Sessions was the AG at the time of the event. Why didn't Sessions press charges? Or perhaps one of Trump's other AGs that came after? Matthew Whitaker? William Barr?

If you find a video with one of them answering your question, I would like to see it.

Then you troll with,
Refusing to answer the question. Propagandist confirmed

Then I respond with,
No, your flawed logic was confirmed. And your extreme partisanship was confirmed when you can't even acknowledge Trump was in power at the time of the event and still want to blame other people for actions they had no control over.

Then you start repeating yourself.

We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
BusterAg
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Carolin_Gallego said:

93MarineHorn said:

Quote:


why is this whataboutism always brought up. let me say it in plain English: BOTH THE BLM RIOTS AND JANUARY 6 WERE BAD.
Yeah, but there aren't any hearings to investigate how Dem politicians encouraged and financially supported the rioters. Remember that little thing? January 6th was nothing compared to the Summer of '20 riots that Dems supported... not even remotely close
Illegally trying to takeover the U.S. executive is a big deal.
So, when people broke into the capitol building to illegally take over the legislative branch to prevent confirmation hearings, that was no big deal?
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
BusterAg
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Carolin_Gallego said:


So, if we are being truthful, you believe the rioters yelling "Hang Mike Pence!", and which came within 60 feet of the VP, they were not a threat and didn't come remotely close to accomplishing anything?

Well, at least they didn't hang out in front of Pence's house with a knife and a gun after telling someone they were off to kill Mike Pence.
"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms … disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes… . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”

--Thomas Jefferson
p_bubel
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aggiehawg
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Carolin_Gallego said:

aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Go on. How would the 12th Amendment legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021?
Had there been competing slates of electors from enough states to make a change in one candidate reaching 270 and the House and Senate disagree how to resolve that question, Pence cannot certify and the 12th is invoked.

That was a possible scenario with Florida in 2000. 271-266 Bush over Gore. Take away Florida's electors, no one reached 270.

An article from yesterday discusses the possibilities under the Electoral Count Act. (Warning: Author has terminal TDS but the legal questions are there.)

Quote:

The most difficult questions in ECA reform, though, have to do not with misbehavior by members of Congress on January 6 but misbehavior by state officials in certifying their state's votes. What does Congress do if the Democratic nominee wins the popular vote in Pennsylvania in 2024 but Gov. Doug Mastriano contrives some excuse to ignore that result and sends a slate of Republican electors to cast their votes for Trump instead? Can Congress ignore Mastriano's electors? Can they force the courts to intervene? What happens if the state legislature joins the effort to ignore the popular vote?
Quote:

The centrists in the Senate have been hashing it out and they're close to a deal, Susan Collins told reporters yesterday. All sides reportedly agree that the VP should have only a ceremonial role on January 6 and that an objection to a state's electoral votes shouldn't be heard unless 20 percent of the House and Senate join the objection.
The fact that this requires an amendment to the Act means it is ambiguous now. Else there would be no need for an amendment.

Quote:

Other reforms are trickier, like fixing the procedures for objecting to a state's electoral votes. Currently it takes only one member of the House and Senate to force a floor debate on whether a state's votes should be accepted. That's too low in an age when grandstanders like Ted Cruz and Josh Hawley are willing to do everything possible to pander to their base, up to and including forcing a constitutional crisis, because they think it might give them a leg up in the next presidential primary.
The fact that this scenario is even plausible suggests the Act is ambiguous as well.

Quote:

The main issue the Senate group hasn't resolved, two sources familiar with its work said, is how to address the "safe harbor" deadline the date by which states must certify their presidential election results to ensure they are counted without interference from Congress. But what if a state misses the deadline? What if it sends an "alternate slate" of electors for a losing candidate?…


The first [option] is to replace the "safe harbor" concept with a clear federal duty for the relevant state official to send timely certification to Congress under the 12th Amendment.

The second is to replace safe harbor provisions with new laws making it clear that Congress can identify the state official lawfully tasked with establishing a state's electors.

The third is to preserve the safe harbor concept and tell states that to qualify for the presumption that their submitted electors are conclusive, they must notify Congress before Election Day which official is responsible under state law for sending electors.
Again, does that sound like the law is so well-settled that they feel the need to change it to such a degree? And for that third option, who from the states are empowered to so notify Congress of who that official is, which office? (The second option is definitely unconstitutional, BTW. And the first option is not too much better.)

The main point here being there would be no need for all of these what-if scenarios if the laws applicable are clear and unambiguous. They aren't. They are asking these questions because they know that and also know that abolishing the Electoral College would require a Constitutional amendment ratified by the states. That would take years and likely wouldn't happen.

Link

Lawyers parse words. That's what we do with statutory construction. One lawyer may parse words one way and another may parse them the opposite. Which is the more persuasive argument is not settled law until SCOTUS rules on which construction is the most persuasive to them.

And lastly, I'll leave you with the text of the statute at issue. This is not a typo.
Quote:

3 U.S. Code 15 - Counting electoral votes in Congress

Congress shall be in session on the sixth day of January succeeding every meeting of the electors. The Senate and House of Representatives shall meet in the Hall of the House of Representatives at the hour of 1 o'clock in the afternoon on that day, and the President of the Senate shall be their presiding officer. Two tellers shall be previously appointed on the part of the Senate and two on the part of the House of Representatives, to whom shall be handed, as they are opened by the President of the Senate, all the certificates and papers purporting to be certificates of the electoral votes, which certificates and papers shall be opened, presented, and acted upon in the alphabetical order of the States, beginning with the letter A; and said tellers, having then read the same in the presence and hearing of the two Houses, shall make a list of the votes as they shall appear from the said certificates; and the votes having been ascertained and counted according to the rules in this subchapter provided, the result of the same shall be delivered to the President of the Senate, who shall thereupon announce the state of the vote, which announcement shall be deemed a sufficient declaration of the persons, if any, elected President and Vice President of the United States, and, together with a list of the votes, be entered on the Journals of the two Houses. Upon such reading of any such certificate or paper, the President of the Senate shall call for objections, if any. Every objection shall be made in writing, and shall state clearly and concisely, and without argument, the ground thereof, and shall be signed by at least one Senator and one Member of the House of Representatives before the same shall be received. When all objections so made to any vote or paper from a State shall have been received and read, the Senate shall thereupon withdraw, and such objections shall be submitted to the Senate for its decision; and the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, in like manner, submit such objections to the House of Representatives for its decision; and no electoral vote or votes from any State which shall have been regularly given by electors whose appointment has been lawfully certified to according to section 6 of this title from which but one return has been received shall be rejected, but the two Houses concurrently may reject the vote or votes when they agree that such vote or votes have not been so regularly given by electors whose appointment has been so certified. If more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State shall have been received by the President of the Senate, those votes, and those only, shall be counted which shall have been regularly given by the electors who are shown by the determination mentioned in section 5 of this title to have been appointed, if the determination in said section provided for shall have been made, or by such successors or substitutes, in case of a vacancy in the board of electors so ascertained, as have been appointed to fill such vacancy in the mode provided by the laws of the State; but in case there shall arise the question which of two or more of such State authorities determining what electors have been appointed, as mentioned in section 5 of this title, is the lawful tribunal of such State, the votes regularly given of those electors, and those only, of such State shall be counted whose title as electors the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide is supported by the decision of such State so authorized by its law; and in such case of more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State, if there shall have been no such determination of the question in the State aforesaid, then those votes, and those only, shall be counted which the two Houses shall concurrently decide were cast by lawful electors appointed in accordance with the laws of the State, unless the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide such votes not to be the lawful votes of the legally appointed electors of such State. But if the two Houses shall disagree in respect of the counting of such votes, then, and in that case, the votes of the electors whose appointment shall have been certified by the executive of the State, under the seal thereof, shall be counted. When the two Houses have voted, they shall immediately again meet, and the presiding officer shall then announce the decision of the questions submitted. No votes or papers from any other State shall be acted upon until the objections previously made to the votes or papers from any State shall have been finally disposed of.

(June 25, 1948, ch. 644, 62 Stat. 675.)
Link
Carolin_Gallego
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aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

aggiehawg said:

Carolin_Gallego said:

Proc92 said:

"Legitimate process"? Defined by who? Absolute? Settled constitutionally? Never to be questioned? Not subject to interpretation or alternative legal or constitutional theory? That is just silly.
So there is a legitimate argument that defines a legal process that allows Mike Pence not to certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021? Please, enlighten us all.
It's called the 12th Amendment.
Go on. How would the 12th Amendment legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021?
Had there been
To parse through your word wall, no offense intended, you offer hypotheticals that are not consistent with the circumstances. So the answer is: the 12th Amendment DID NOT legally allow Mike Pence to not certify the 2020 election for Biden on January 6th, 2021.

And this argument
Quote:

The fact that this requires an amendment to the Act means it is ambiguous now.
Sounds a lot like this argument
Quote:

Statement by Donald J. Trump, 45th President of the United States of America

02/01/22

So pathetic to watch the Unselect Committee of political hacks, liars, and traitors work so feverishly to alter the Electoral College Act so that a Vice President cannot ensure the honest results of the election, when just one year ago they said that "the Vice President has absolutely no right to ensure the true outcome or results of an election." In other words, they lied, and the Vice President did have this right or, more pointedly, could have sent the votes back to various legislators for reassessment after so much fraud and irregularities were found. If it were sent back to the legislators, or if Nancy Pelosi, who is in charge of Capitol security, had taken my recommendation and substantially increased security, there would have been no "January 6" as we know it! Therefore, the Unselect Committee should be investigating why Nancy Pelosi did such a poor job of overseeing security and why Mike Pence did not send back the votes for recertification or approval, in that it has now been shown that he clearly had the right to do so!
We believe progress is made through MORE discussion, not LESS, and we believe that to be true even if the topics are uncomfortable and we occasionally disagree with one another. - TexAgs
The name-calling technique making false associations is a child's game. The propagandist who uses this technique hopes that the audience will reject a person and their argument on this false basis.
p_bubel
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Proc92
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https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/21066248/eastman-memo.pdf



PRIVILEGED AND CONFIDENTIAL
January 6 scenario
7 states have transmitted dual slates of electors to the President of the Senate.
The 12th Amendment merely provides that "the President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted." There is very solid legal authority, and historical precedent, for the view that the President of the Senate does the counting, including the resolution of disputed electoral votes (as Adams and Jefferson did while Vice President, regarding their own election as President), and all the Members of Congress can do is watch.
The Electoral Count Act, which is likely unconstitutional, provides:
If more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State shall have been received by the President of the Senate, those votes, and those only, shall be counted which shall have been regularly given by the electors who are shown by the determination mentioned in section 5 of this title to have been appointed, if the determination in said section provided for shall have been made, or by such successors or substitutes, in case of a vacancy in the board of electors so ascertained, as have been appointed to fill such vacancy in the mode provided by the laws of the State; but in case there shall arise the question which of two or more of such State authorities determining what electors have been appointed, as mentioned in section 5 of this title, is the lawful tribunal of such State, the votes regularly given of those electors, and those only, of such State shall be counted whose title as electors the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide is supported by the decision of such State so authorized by its law; and in such case of more than one return or paper purporting to be a return from a State, if there shall have been no such determination of the question in the State aforesaid, then those votes, and those only, shall be counted which the two Houses shall concurrently decide were cast by lawful electors appointed in accordance with the laws of the State, unless the two Houses, acting separately, shall concurrently decide such votes not to be the lawful votes of the legally appointed electors of such State. But if the two Houses shall disagree in respect of the counting of such votes, then, and in that case, the votes of the electors whose appointment shall have been certified by the executive of the State, under the seal thereof, shall be counted.
This is the piece that we believe is unconstitutional. It allows the two houses, "acting separately," to decide the question, whereas the 12th Amendment provides only for a joint session. And if there is disagreement, under the Act the slate certified by the "executive" of the state is to be counted, regardless of the evidence that exists regarding the election, and regardless of whether there was ever fair review of what happened in the election, by judges and/or state legislatures.
So here's the scenario we propose:

1. VP Pence, presiding over the joint session (or Senate Pro Tempore Grassley, if Pence recuses himself), begins to open and count the ballots, starting with Alabama (without conceding that the procedure, specified by the Electoral Count Act, of going through the States alphabetically is required).
2. When he gets to Arizona, he announces that he has multiple slates of electors, and so is going to defer decision on that until finishing the other States. This would be the first break with the procedure set out in the Act.
3. At the end, he announces that because of the ongoing disputes in the 7 States, there are no electors that can be deemed validly appointed in those States. That means the total number of "electors appointed" the language of the 12th Amendment -- is 454. This reading of the 12th Amendment has also been advanced by Harvard Law Professor Laurence Tribe (here). A "majority of the electors appointed" would therefore be 228. There are at this point 232 votes for Trump, 222 votes for Biden. Pence then gavels President Trump as re-elected.
4. Howls, of course, from the Democrats, who now claim, contrary to Tribe's prior position, that 270 is required. So Pence says, fine. Pursuant to the 12th Amendment, no candidate has achieved the necessary majority. That sends the matter to the House, where the "the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote . . . ." Republicans currently control 26 of the state delegations, the bare majority needed to win that vote. President Trump is re-elected there as well.
5. One last piece. Assuming the Electoral Count Act process is followed and, upon getting the objections to the Arizona slates, the two houses break into their separate chambers, we should not allow the Electoral Count Act constraint on debate to control. That would mean that a prior legislature was determining the rules of the present one a constitutional no-no (as Tribe has forcefully argued). So someone Ted Cruz, Rand Paul, etc. should demand normal rules (which includes the filibuster). That creates a stalemate that would give the state legislatures more time to weigh in to formally support the alternate slate of electors, if they had not already done so.
6. The main thing here is that Pence should do this without asking for permission either from a vote of the joint session or from the Court. Let the other side challenge his actions in court, where Tribe (who in 2001 conceded the President of the Senate might be in charge of counting the votes) and others who would press a lawsuit would have their past position -- that these are non-justiciable political questions thrown back at them, to get the lawsuit dismissed. The fact is that the Constitution assigns this power to the Vice President as the ultimate arbiter. We should take all of our actions with that in mind.

Jarrin' Jay
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AG
This is all an orchestrated side show, they want to keep talking about 1/6 so they don't have to talk about 6/10, 6/11, 6/12, etc., etc., etc.

The fact is the House still convened and got their "work" done, Pence did his duty to certify, there was one unarmed person shot, control was regained, it was not a coup or an insurrection, vote result was officially stamped and transfer of POTUS enacted, etc. Now the takeaway lesson is to secure the Capitol if/when/as needed, and not allow mass congregating, etc. It was certainly a S show outside the Capitol, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the doors were opened by Capitol staff / police and most people just strolled in like an invited guest.

It was not a coup or an insurrection, it was a gaggle of misguided people making bad decisions exhibiting unruly behavior. After a summer of burning, rioting, and looting across the country 1/6 at the Capitol is nothing.

We did not come close to losing the rule of law or having our democracy overturned like these overly dramatic Dim simpletons keep stating and parroting. That is a complete joke.

As well not everything needs a damned hearing or commission costing the US taxpayers millions of $$$. They literally have dozens if not hundreds of more pressing issue and matters to deal with instead of this side show.
 
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