...and I don't disagree with this statement at all. Pence proved himself to be 100% a "boy scout" as others have said, and I don't mean that in a completely positive or derogatory light. He was going to do what he believed was his job, nothing more, nothing less.

I can't believe it, but John Bolton stumbled on what I believe is mostly right.

Quote:

---

Speaking to CNN, Bolton insisted that Trump could not have pulled off a "carefully planned coup d'etat aimed at the Constitution" because "that's not the way Donald Trump does things."
"It's not an attack on our democracy," Bolton said. "It's Donald Trump looking out for Donald Trump. It's a once-in-a-lifetime occurrence."
CNN host Jake Tapper responded, "I don't know that I agree with you, to be fair, with all due respect" adding that "one doesn't have to be brilliant to attempt a coup."
However, Bolton said he disagreed with this statement before referencing his own alleged experience helping to plan a coup.


"As somebody who has helped plan coups d'etatnot here but, you know, [in] other placesit takes a lot of work. And that's not what he [Trump] did," Bolton continued. "It was just stumbling around from one idea to another. Ultimately, he did unleash the rioters at the Capitol. As to that, there is no doubt. But not to overthrow the Constitution to buy more time to throw the matter back to the states to try to redo the issue."
"And if you don't believe that, then you're going to overreact, and I think that's a real risk for the committee, which has done a lot of good work mostly when the witnesses are testifying, not when the members are opining," he added. "It is invariably the case when you go too far trying to prove your case, you undermine it."

---

It wasn't a coups d'etat, it was a clumsy (my words) attempt to do whatever he could to buy time and send this back to states to do what they should have done before certifying anything questionable.

The part still getting parroted incorrectly is:

Quote:

---

Ultimately, he did unleash the rioters at the Capitol. As to that, there is no doubt.

---

Bolton has fallen victim to the propaganda through semantics. Trump's tweets, words, and rhetoric "empowered" and "emboldened" protesters who were further worked up to rioters. Again, wording is important. The above statement overstates what he did.

then there is this....which is what I have been saying all along

Quote:

---

"It is invariably the case when you go too far trying to prove your case, you undermine it."

---

The democrats had a strong case putting blame for escalation and adding 'fuel to the fire.' Stop there and you win. You convince independents and even pull people on the right who would agree. They just went to far and turned those ears/minds off.

ETA: Link

Quote:

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

And yet, you sit there completely flabbergasted about how the same party that got behind a man that has a lifetime of lacking human decency in Joe Biden could have such a vendetta for Trump that extends well beyond his time in office.

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

Not only do I understand why some people like Trump's personality, I don't have any issues with it. Some of yall see him as a fighter. Some think he is a Christian. Some think he is a conservative. I don't. That's OK, isn't it ? We just disagree.

As I have said too many times already, I'm not voting for trump.... not because his personality, mean tweets, the media etc... that's all the stuff he cries about. I simply do not and won't vote for him as my president because I don't think he is a decent enough person. I'm not asking you to agree with that as a reason. It's MY reason not yours.

I happen to think DeSantis is a good fellow and he is very good at articulating his views. Some will attack him if he has a chance to win, but I'm not swayed by media etc.. I tend to go by the life he lives.

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

Someone hates paragraphs.

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

PabloSerna said:

---

Do you think Trump was right to pressure VP Pence to invalidate those states where he (Trump) suspected voter fraud?

Do you think that is what is allowed under the 12th ammendment?

---

I never supported what Trump was trying to do with Pence, because all reports were that it was not legally workable. That doesn't mean that it was criminally Illegal to attempt, anymore so than the millions of legal maneuvers that attorneys and politicians attempt every day that are not ultimately successful. Nor any of the challenges to election results before it. I also think that the lawsuits leading up to the inauguration were poorly constructed attempts to stop a certification deadline before a complete investigation could be completed. They were working with some very unfortunate if not impossible time line and many of the lawsuits were thrown out on standing alone. IMO, the moment that certification was complete it was too late to stop the inauguration, but I'm not legal expert, so I didn't dive too deep in to the details like others here have.

I think it would have been better to let it play out and push for a special prosecutor type investigation in to the voter fraud that we now know was likely enabled by changes in election laws, drop boxes, ballot harvesting, and money directed at swinging the results in the urban areas of swing states (see CTCL). He would not have been in office, but would have a much better shot at proving the election was fraudulent and the Biden admin would have been dead in the water. He'd also have a much better shot at winning in 2024. Making the Biden admin a lame duck would have saved this country immeasurable suffering at the stupidity of left wing "ideas".

That being said, none of the stunts that he tried to delay inauguration extinguish the possibility that the election results were highly influenced by fraudulent activities. We won't ever know now because the 1/6 event extinguished any political capital that could have been used to push for a proper investigation. The Democrats have weaponized that event to the nth degree and it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. Especially in light of their hypocrisy regarding this even compared to the Antifa/BLM summer of destruction and violence in 2020.

Furthermore, just because liberals believe the election was legit, their DNC propagandist media types agree with them, and some haphazard lawsuits were thrown out on standing, does not mean that those who claim the election was fraudulent are lying. Many people do believe the election was fraudulent due to the anomalies they watched play out during the election, the improbable election statistics, the dark money funneled to election officials in urban areas of swing states, audits failing to address signature verification, and the unprecedented changes to election laws.

Claiming the election was legit as fact is no better if not worse than those that claim the election was stolen with certainty. No one really knows and likely never will. What we do know is that there are many avenues of fraud that need to be closed or the Democrats will take advantage of them at every opportunity.

Think of it like this:
Democrats and their supporters have zero ethical boundaries: This is really not debatable after we watched their actions and rhetoric during the Trump years up until now.

In 2020, there is nothing more the left wanted than to get Trump out of office and they've already shown that they are willing to do literally anything, from violence, destruction, lying, and cheating to get what they want.

COVID gave them excellent cover to push for voting changes in the name of safety that would open up avenues for local supporters and officials to make stuffing ballot boxes easier. This takes no organization, as law changes allow it to happen organically.

Hundreds of millions of dollars poured in to these voting precincts to facilitate setting up these systems to make it easier for the locals to ballot harvest and stuff drop boxes. The urban centers saw funding from CTCL that represent up to 7x as much money per voter as the rural areas in the same states. If that is not blatantly purchasing an election, I don't know what is.

The have the opportunity and the means to make cheating easier without top down organization. There's nothing in the world these unethical people wanted more than Trump out. Most of the media, big tech, and bureaucratic agencies are ideologically aligned with their interests and want Trump out with equal vigor, so there's little oversight to worry about. Do they take that opportunity to ballot harvest and stuff drop boxes or do they say "no that would be wrong"? I'll let you guess.

None of that even addresses the billions of dollars the media and big tech gave to the Democrats in positive campaign coverage while selectively covering Republicans in a negative light and even suppressing them on social media.

You can claim Trump's actions were illegal but there's really no precedent to say that they were. Furthermore, they were nowhere near as egregious as all of the illegal activities that the Democrats have recently skated on. The levels of hypocrisy that we're seeing from the Democrat party, the media and the liberals is simply stunning. Nothing and I mean nothing in history is comparable to the hypocrisy they've shown. Unbelievable and the biggest reason this country is being torn apart.

Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

aggieforester05 said:

---

PabloSerna said:

---

Do you think Trump was right to pressure VP Pence to invalidate those states where he (Trump) suspected voter fraud?

Do you think that is what is allowed under the 12th ammendment?

---

I never supported what Trump was trying to do with Pence, because all reports were that it was not legally workable. That doesn't mean that it was criminally Illegal to attempt, anymore so than the millions of legal maneuvers that attorneys and politicians attempt every day that are not ultimately successful. Nor any of the challenges to election results before it. I also think that the lawsuits leading up to the inauguration were poorly constructed attempts to stop a certification deadline before a complete investigation could be completed. They were working with some very unfortunate if not impossible time line and many of the lawsuits were thrown out on standing alone. IMO, the moment that certification was complete it was too late to stop the inauguration, but I'm not legal expert, so I didn't dive too deep in to the details like others here have.

I think it would have been better to let it play out and push for a special prosecutor type investigation in to the voter fraud that we now know was likely enabled by changes in election laws, drop boxes, ballot harvesting, and money directed at swinging the results in the urban areas of swing states (see CTCL). He would not have been in office, but would have a much better shot at proving the election was fraudulent and the Biden admin would have been dead in the water. He'd also have a much better shot at winning in 2024. Making the Biden admin a lame duck would have saved this country immeasurable suffering at the stupidity of left wing "ideas".

That being said, none of the stunts that he tried to delay inauguration extinguish the possibility that the election results were highly influenced by fraudulent activities. We won't ever know now because the 1/6 event extinguished any political capital that could have been used to push for a proper investigation. The Democrats have weaponized that event to the nth degree and it's just beyond ridiculous at this point. Especially in light of their hypocrisy regarding this even compared to the Antifa/BLM summer of destruction and violence in 2020.

Furthermore, just because liberals believe the election was legit, their DNC propagandist media types agree with them, and some haphazard lawsuits were thrown out on standing, does not mean that those who claim the election was fraudulent are lying. Many people do believe the election was fraudulent due to the anomalies they watched play out during the election, the improbable election statistics, the dark money funneled to election officials in urban areas of swing states, audits failing to address signature verification, and the unprecedented changes to election laws.

Claiming the election was legit as fact is no better if not worse than those that claim the election was stolen with certainty. No one really knows and likely never will. What we do know is that there are many avenues of fraud that need to be closed or the Democrats will take advantage of them at every opportunity.

Think of it like this:
Democrats and their supporters have zero ethical boundaries: This is really not debatable after we watched their actions and rhetoric during the Trump years up until now.

In 2020, there is nothing more the left wanted than to get Trump out of office and they've already shown that they are willing to do literally anything, from violence, destruction, lying, and cheating to get what they want.

COVID gave them excellent cover to push for voting changes in the name of safety that would open up avenues for local supporters and officials to make stuffing ballot boxes easier. This takes no organization, as law changes allow it to happen organically.

Hundreds of millions of dollars poured in to these voting precincts to facilitate setting up these systems to make it easier for the locals to ballot harvest and stuff drop boxes. The urban centers saw funding from CTCL that represent up to 7x as much money per voter as the rural areas in the same states. If that is not blatantly purchasing an election, I don't know what is.

The have the opportunity and the means to make cheating easier without top down organization. There's nothing in the world these unethical people wanted more than Trump out. Most of the media, big tech, and bureaucratic agencies are ideologically aligned with their interests and want Trump out with equal vigor, so there's little oversight to worry about. Do they take that opportunity to ballot harvest and stuff drop boxes or do they say "no that would be wrong"? I'll let you guess.

None of that even addresses the billions of dollars the media and big tech gave to the Democrats in positive campaign coverage while selectively covering Republicans in a negative light and even suppressing them on social media.

You can claim Trump's actions were illegal but there's really no precedent to say that they were. Furthermore, they were nowhere near as egregious as all of the illegal activities that the Democrats have recently skated on. The levels of hypocrisy that we're seeing from the Democrat party, the media and the liberals is simply stunning. Nothing and I mean nothing in history is comparable to the hypocrisy they've shown. Unbelievable and the biggest reason this country is being torn apart.

---

I don't know if the way Trump handled his defeat had any ILLEGAL actions. But hopefully we can agree his behavior was deplorable ?

Why not just state your case that you feel like the election results were not right, send your lawyers to fight it out in court, and then when that was exhausted call your opponent congratulate him and attend his inauguration ?

Instead of all the whining, calling states to try to find votes, and pressuring your own vice president to do something wrong ?

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

Not only do I understand why some people like Trump's personality, I don't have any issues with it. Some of yall see him as a fighter. Some think he is a Christian. Some think he is a conservative. I don't. That's OK, isn't it ? We just disagree.

As I have said too many times already, I'm not voting for trump.... not because his personality, mean tweets, the media etc... that's all the stuff he cries about. I simply do not and won't vote for him as my president because I don't think he is a decent enough person. I'm not asking you to agree with that as a reason. It's MY reason not yours.

I happen to think DeSantis is a good fellow and he is very good at articulating his views. Some will attack him if he has a chance to win, but I'm not swayed by media etc.. I tend to go by the life he lives.

---

I'm not asking you to like him or vote for him. I don't necessarily believe he is a conservative or Christian and I don't agree with everything he did. Just wanted to see if you could understand why people like him. Most liberals and never Trumpers seem to think people like him because he's mean to the libs, but don't understand the depths and history of why people want someone like him to be mean to the people he was. The left and the media desperately need to be called out for their hypocrisy, dishonesty and wickedness. The best thing he did was stand up for his base. which is what most Republicans have failed to do since Reagan. He certainly did not articulate it well at times though.

aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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Gigem314 said:

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Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

Not only do I understand why some people like Trump's personality, I don't have any issues with it. Some of yall see him as a fighter. Some think he is a Christian. Some think he is a conservative. I don't. That's OK, isn't it ? We just disagree.

As I have said too many times already, I'm not voting for trump.... not because his personality, mean tweets, the media etc... that's all the stuff he cries about. I simply do not and won't vote for him as my president because I don't think he is a decent enough person. I'm not asking you to agree with that as a reason. It's MY reason not yours.

I happen to think DeSantis is a good fellow and he is very good at articulating his views. Some will attack him if he has a chance to win, but I'm not swayed by media etc.. I tend to go by the life he lives.

---

I'm not asking you to like him or vote for him. I don't necessarily believe he is a conservative or Christian and I don't agree with everything he did. Just wanted to see if you could understand why people like him. Most liberals and never Trumpers seem to think people like him because he's mean to the libs, but don't understand the depths and history of why people want someone like him to be mean to the people he was. The left and the media desperately need to be called out for their hypocrisy, dishonesty and wickedness. The best thing he did was stand up for his base. which is what most Republicans have failed to do since Reagan. He certainly did not articulate it well at times though.

---

I understand. No problem, my friend

Which is why I think just saying "media" falls short. It is the MSM, social media platforms, online publications, search engine manipulation, etc etc etc.

People who I have known for my whole life have fallen victim. People who otherwise have been level headed and conservative began repeating things which were factually inaccurate. It has even infested AP and Reuters in many cases.

Quote:

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

So those "81 million" never-Trumpers voted for a low character and immoral man like Biden because they didn't like the low character of Donald Trump?

Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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Gigem314 said:

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Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

---

He may be, but he will certainly be at a disadvantage just like every Republican facing the left wing media. IMO that disadvantage has gotten much worse with the advent of social media. Sure the different sides have their bubbles, but when 95%+ of the major news sources and companies like Twitter push Democrats, that puts Republicans at a major disadvantage out of the box. It would be much better if these elections were decided on the merit of their ideas instead of who has the loudest bullhorn.

Americans are suffering real like struggles due to this government and yet the Dems only care about this clown show.

Gigem314 said:

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Quote:

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I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

So those "81 million" never-Trumpers voted for a low character and immoral man like Biden because they didn't like the low character of Donald Trump?

---

This is the part I don't get. There's nothing wrong with not liking or voting for Trump. I don't understand someone voting for a POS like Biden because they don't like Trump's personality. Jumping out of the fire into the frying pan.

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

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I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

So those "81 million" never-Trumpers voted for a low character and immoral man like Biden because they didn't like the low character of Donald Trump?

---

I can't begin to say why or what any other never trumpers did or didn't do. I'm just saying I think the number is under estimated. They may have not voted, voted third party, or voted Biden. That was their only choices. Hopefully we never get another trump/ Biden choice.

And Lord, I don't think there was 81 million never Trumpers that voted for Biden, lol. Some of those were Democrat voters, lol.

Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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Gigem314 said:

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Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

---

He may win, but corporate media is definitely a propaganda arm of the democratic party and has been for many years. Discounting the influence of the media and social media in conditioning a large % of the population is foolish imo. If they were honest or balanced, democrats would get curb stomped on a regular basis throughout most of the country.

Just the latest example....we now have videos of the President's fully grown son smoking crack, arguing with a hooker over the amount of crack (almost 21 grams...holy sh**), nude masturbating while he holds a handgun that he acquired by lying on federal forms (felony firearm transaction), and much much more. He was also busted throwing another gun in a public trash can behind a store and Secret Service had to get involved. NOT A PEEP. We had some of this stuff leaking out before the election and both the media and social media completely suppressed it and even banned certain outlets that tried to report on it via their platform. Even the most rabidly devout white leftist pagan has to admit deep down that it would be the exact opposite if Trump Jr. was engaging in this kind of shockingly deviant and lewd activity...in terms of how the media would handle it. It is INSANE that they are not reporting on this stuff that is coming out...it should be getting wall to wall coverage on every outlet. This is unprecedented.

SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

---

He may win, but corporate media is definitely a propaganda arm of the democratic party and has been for many years. Discounting the influence of the media and social media in conditioning a large % of the population is foolish imo. If they were honest, democrats would get curb stomped on a regular basis throughout most of the country.

---

Well we can agree with the part of most media is left leaning, including TV, newspapers, movies etc... but we can respectfully disagree with the part about "if they were honest democrats would get curb stomped in most of the country".

A lot of the country ( where the population is) is statistically heavily democratic leaning. I don't think that's a media phonenom.

SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

aggieforester05 said:

---

Ags77 said:

---

Gigem314 said:

---

Quote:

---

I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

---

No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

---

First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

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He may win, but corporate media is definitely a propaganda arm of the democratic party and has been for many years. Discounting the influence of the media and social media in conditioning a large % of the population is foolish imo. If they were honest or balanced, democrats would get curb stomped on a regular basis throughout most of the country.

Just the latest example....we now have videos of the President's fully grown son smoking crack, arguing with a hooker over the amount of crack (almost 21 grams...holy sh**), nude masturbating while he holds a handgun that he acquired by lying on federal forms (felony firearm transaction), and much much more. He was also busted throwing another gun in a public trash can behind a store and Secret Service had to get involved. NOT A PEEP. We had some of this stuff leaking out before the election and both the media and social media completely suppressed it and even banned certain outlets that tried to report on it via their platform. Even the most rabidly devout white leftist pagan has to admit deep down that it would be the exact opposite if Trump Jr. was engaging in this kind of shockingly deviant and lewd activity...in terms of how the media would handle it. It is INSANE that they are not reporting on this stuff that is coming out...it should be getting wall to wall coverage on every outlet. This is unprecedented.

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Total agreement and I would imagine we would both agree that Hunter is a despicable human.

Ags77 said:

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SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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Gigem314 said:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

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No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

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First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

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Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

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I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

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I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

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Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

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He may win, but corporate media is definitely a propaganda arm of the democratic party and has been for many years. Discounting the influence of the media and social media in conditioning a large % of the population is foolish imo. If they were honest, democrats would get curb stomped on a regular basis throughout most of the country.

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Well we can agree with the part of most media is left leaning, including TV, newspapers, movies etc... but we can respectfully disagree with the part about "if they were honest democrats would get curb stomped in most of the country".

A lot of the country ( where the population is) is statistically heavily democratic leaning. I don't think that's a media phonenom.

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If decades of conditioning and propaganda from mainstream media outlets (almost all of them) doesn't work, why do they do it? You really don't think that media and social media etc. has influenced and even helped shape the political thinking of MILLIONS? Come on. If the Hunter Biden with underage girls and hookers and smoking crack was blasted all over the media (like it should have been and would have been if Trump Jr was doing it) there is a huge chance Biden loses that election.

And here, we are just talking about the media...not factoring in modern liberal academia, Hollywood, the sports world, corporations etc. IT WORKS. THAT'S WHY THEY DO IT AND SPEND MILLIONS AND BILLIONS DOING SO.

SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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Ags77 said:

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SB 43rd STREET OG said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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Ags77 said:

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Gigem314 said:

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Quote:

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I don't disagree on most of your points, but they should WANT to run against trump. He might be the ONLY THING that can energize their turnout in 2024.

Oh, and I could never vote for Clinton because of his character either. And he made a decent president, imo.

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No, they should want to run against a Liz Cheney or Romney type that has zero ability to mobilize voters and only halfway agrees with their party on many issues. That's how Obama and Clinton got second terms.

Put your Trump hatred aside and realize he's a very dynamic personality that will still garner a lot of support, particularly from working class voters and those who don't vote based on...character.

They will also start attacking the character of DeSantis at some point as well. And I'm sure people like you will buy into it.

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First, I don't hate Trump. I don't like who he is nor his lack of human decency, but I don't have hate for him. I didn't need anyone to attack trumps lack of character, lol. His whole life displays it.

I couldn't ever vote for him. That's different from hating. I prayed for him regularly while he was in office. As I do for all our leaders.

Of course I recognize Trump has plenty of loyal supporters. Some because of his policies ( which some I agreed with too) and some because his personality , as you call it, attracts some people. I have many friends that were big Trump guys.

And as far as DeSantis goes, he seems like a high character,
good family man. I won't care about any attacks coming his way because I don't see evidence in his life.

---

Do you understand at least why people some people like him for his personality? It's not because they're crass and rude and like to pick on people. It's because the Democrats have been crass and rude with conservatives and Republicans for a very long time with 95%+ of the media backing them and failing to call out their hypocrisy. During that time there's been a series of milk toast Republicans that have a go along to get along attitude that don't hit back at Democrats and the media and continually negotiate leftward to show "bipartisanship" while NEVER having that reciprocated. Conservatives were fed up with being stepped on and to many it felt good to finally have a leader that was willing to call out the Democrats for their idiocy and hypocrisy and call out the media for being left wing propagandists. He did not always choose those battles wisely and at times poorly worded his message in ways that could be taken out of context and weaponized against him. That being said, the vast majority of the time, the people that he was "mean" to, deserved it. Hopefully DeSantis can keep that train running and hopefully we'll see some of the media start behaving professionally and responsibly, but I highly doubt it. DeSantis will be Hitler 3.0 in the coming years and even if you don't fall for it, most liberals and many moderates will buy in to it just like they did with Trump. The corruption of our news organizations is causing far more damage than any one president could. Ultimately they are responsible for us ending up with the corrupt senile moron in office that's running the country in to the ground.

---

I think you are over estimating the power of the media and under estimating the number of never Trumpers. Just my opinion.

---

I respectfully disagree. I think the media is the driving force behind division in this country and their irresponsible and one sided reporting makes the partisan wedge much much worse. They are simply left wing activists that are using very powerful platforms to push their agendas. I also think that you overestimate the critical thinking skills of Never Trumpers. Maybe some won't fall for the ruse again, but most of these people will fall for the demonization of DeSantis just as they did for Trump. Give it time, they're just getting started. I remember the Bush Presidency and that was before social media gave them a near constant feed in front of every American's face. When you see a negative headline about a person every time you pick up your phone or turn on your TV/Computer, that can have a very powerful effect on low information voters over time.

---

Well I guess 2024 will tell us which is right. I think DeSantis will be fine.

---

He may win, but corporate media is definitely a propaganda arm of the democratic party and has been for many years. Discounting the influence of the media and social media in conditioning a large % of the population is foolish imo. If they were honest, democrats would get curb stomped on a regular basis throughout most of the country.

---

Well we can agree with the part of most media is left leaning, including TV, newspapers, movies etc... but we can respectfully disagree with the part about "if they were honest democrats would get curb stomped in most of the country".

A lot of the country ( where the population is) is statistically heavily democratic leaning. I don't think that's a media phonenom.

---

If decades of conditioning and propaganda from mainstream media outlets (almost all of them) doesn't work, why do they do it? You really don't think that media and social media etc. has influenced and even helped shape the political thinking of MILLIONS? Come on. If the Hunter Biden with underage girls and hookers and smoking crack was blasted all over the media (like it should have been and would have been if Trump Jr was doing it) there is a huge chance Biden loses that election.

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I think the media is full of left leaning people and they sell their product, yes. If and when it doesn't sell , they won't. I wouldn't pretend to say they don't have an influence. I just said I think it's over estimated and over used as a excuse. W was a real good guy and his problems in his youth were reported and he served 2 terms.

No guns recovered. I thought Trump knew they had AR 15s?

Seems like Mr. Epps WAS actually inciting people to go to and in the capitol. But he never was arrested?

Things that make you go hmmm...

Who again planned and instigated the storming of the Capitol? https://t.co/Q5JZJAI9TA pic.twitter.com/SlYDML8DFb

— Rep. Marjorie Taylor Greene🇺🇸 (@RepMTG) July 13, 2022

Example. My family has CNN on for news if the TV is on a news station. Its been that way since CNN started.

I don't think anyone of us would be considered liberal or leftist anywhere but Texags, lol. The news is the news and I don't take it for the gospel.

Ags77 said:

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Example. My family has CNN on for news if the TV is on a news station.i don't think anyone of us would be considered liberal or leftist anywhere but Texags, lol. The news is the news and I don't take it for the gospel.

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When CNN routinely lies about "facts" is it really still "news is the news"??

Nicholas Sandman and Kyle Rittenhouse would like a word.

If your news is CNN, you are left of center

Ags77 said:

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Example. My family has CNN on for news if the TV is on a news station. Its been that way since CNN started.

I don't think anyone of us would be considered liberal or leftist anywhere but Texags, lol. The news is the news and I don't take it for the gospel.

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WOW...case in point at how effective it is for many ordinary Americans. They think it's just the news and not completely shaped to push narratives and fuel agendas.

CanyonAg77 said:

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If your news is CNN, you are left of center an uninformed LIV.

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FIFY.

Ags77 said:

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Example. My family has CNN on for news if the TV is on a news station. Its been that way since CNN started.

I don't think anyone of us would be considered liberal or leftist anywhere but Texags, lol. The news is the news and I don't take it for the gospel.

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I guess I don't watch the news like you guys do, lol. We don't sit down and take notes or analyze it . It's on very little but that is the channel we have always watched when its on news.. If something big happens I will know. That's about it.

Ags77 said:

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I guess I don't watch the news like you guys do, lol. We don't sit down and take notes or analyze it . It's on very little but that is the channel we have always watched when its on news.. If something big happens I will know. That's about it.

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At least you acknowledge you are a low information voter.

Spreadsheet updated.

aggiehawg said:

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CanyonAg77 said:

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If your news is CNN, you are left of center an uninformed LIV.

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FIFY.

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Why not both?