91_Aggie said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Texas 1836 said:

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Seeing more of Chuck just confirms to me he was the real ahole of the two brothers, not Jimmy. Or at least just as bad.

Jimmy's speech to the board didn't really speak highly of Chuck, except as a lawyer. "He's a great lawyer, but a piece of crap everywhere else."

Glad he's gone.

And I always liked Squiggy better.

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I'm still kind of lost on what the point of that scene was. It showed Chuck vouching for Jimmy, Jimmy wanting Chuck to enjoy himself, Chuck, taking over and enjoying himself once Jimmy pushed him, Chuck taking care of Jimmy.... Why did Chuck sleep at Jimmy's apartment and not go home to his house?

Was this scene to show that Jimmy did have a reason to still care for Chuck?

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I think the point was the opposite of the above. The point was to give yet another example of why Jimmy should not care about Chuck. On what should have been Jimmy's night of celebration, Chuck was going to leave early. Then on what should have been Jimmy's moment on stage, Chuck completely disregarded him and took over.

This was just another example showing why it's understandable for Jimmy to not have any warm feelings towards Chuck and to give more background into why Jimmy put on a show for the committee instead of speaking truly from the heart. In other words, Chuck is a despicable human being and awful brother.

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They showed Jimmy singing happily in the background when Chuck was singing.

I think it shows more that Jimmy's view of Chuck always hating him/always wanting him to lose was not as black/White as Jimmy paints it now.

Remember in all this that Jimmy is not a good guy. He's always been a con artist. he becomes an outright criminal as seen in Breaking Bad.

It seems everyone is cheering Jimmy on kind of like the way they cheered Walt on in Breaking Bad. these are bad people, amoral at best. And everyone is on Jimmy's side. "he got a raw deal, so he's justified in every thing he does".

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I'm not saying Jimmy was justified in conning people or justified in turning into a criminal. I'm saying that Jimmy is completely justified in hating his brother, and 99% of people would have turned on his brother long before Jimmy did. If you observe their relationship in a vacuum (without focusing on Jimmy's other non-Chuck actions), it's obvious Jimmy treated Chuck much better than Chuck treated Jimmy. It's not even close.

Just because Jimmy is a con artist doesn't mean he treated Chuck bad. And just because Chuck is a respected lawyer doesn't mean he didn't treat Jimmy like absolute **** their entire lives.

It seems that any malevolence we see from Chuck towards Jimmy was always in defense of or out of anger at Jimmy not doing what was right. But overall, from what I can tell, Chuck really did care for Jimmy.

Why the hell else would he have bothered getting him to move away from Chicago to come work for him if not to help him get into a better life and to help him become a better person?

Just because Chuck never saw Jimmy as worthy of being a lawyer doesn't mean he didn't love him as his brother. Chuck always suspected Jimmy of doing things the wrong way, and most of the time he was dead on.

mavsfan4ever said:

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91_Aggie said:

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mavsfan4ever said:

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Texaggie7nine said:

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Texas 1836 said:

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Seeing more of Chuck just confirms to me he was the real ahole of the two brothers, not Jimmy. Or at least just as bad.

Jimmy's speech to the board didn't really speak highly of Chuck, except as a lawyer. "He's a great lawyer, but a piece of crap everywhere else."

Glad he's gone.

And I always liked Squiggy better.

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I'm still kind of lost on what the point of that scene was. It showed Chuck vouching for Jimmy, Jimmy wanting Chuck to enjoy himself, Chuck, taking over and enjoying himself once Jimmy pushed him, Chuck taking care of Jimmy.... Why did Chuck sleep at Jimmy's apartment and not go home to his house?

Was this scene to show that Jimmy did have a reason to still care for Chuck?

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I think the point was the opposite of the above. The point was to give yet another example of why Jimmy should not care about Chuck. On what should have been Jimmy's night of celebration, Chuck was going to leave early. Then on what should have been Jimmy's moment on stage, Chuck completely disregarded him and took over.

This was just another example showing why it's understandable for Jimmy to not have any warm feelings towards Chuck and to give more background into why Jimmy put on a show for the committee instead of speaking truly from the heart. In other words, Chuck is a despicable human being and awful brother.

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They showed Jimmy singing happily in the background when Chuck was singing.

I think it shows more that Jimmy's view of Chuck always hating him/always wanting him to lose was not as black/White as Jimmy paints it now.

Remember in all this that Jimmy is not a good guy. He's always been a con artist. he becomes an outright criminal as seen in Breaking Bad.

It seems everyone is cheering Jimmy on kind of like the way they cheered Walt on in Breaking Bad. these are bad people, amoral at best. And everyone is on Jimmy's side. "he got a raw deal, so he's justified in every thing he does".

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I'm not saying Jimmy was justified in conning people or justified in turning into a criminal. I'm saying that Jimmy is completely justified in hating his brother, and 99% of people would have turned on his brother long before Jimmy did. If you observe their relationship in a vacuum (without focusing on Jimmy's other non-Chuck actions), it's obvious Jimmy treated Chuck much better than Chuck treated Jimmy. It's not even close.

Just because Jimmy is a con artist doesn't mean he treated Chuck bad. And just because Chuck is a respected lawyer doesn't mean he didn't treat Jimmy like absolute **** their entire lives.

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There clearly was a history. Chuck said something about Jimmy stealing from their own parents. (Maybe being partially to blame for the failure of his dad's store? I forget.) I think part of the reason that Chuck resented Jimmy so much was that Jimmy had bamboozled their parents into loving him despite all the crap he had done to them. Sorta like when parents give all their energy and attention to an alcoholic son and ignore the clean one who is living straight. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to find out later that Chuck has accomplished so much in order to gain the attention from their parents that Jimmy got by merely being Jimmy.

This Jimmy vs. Chuck debate just illustrates how great this show is. The writers/actors do such a great job of keeping the characters in the grey (as opposite to black/white), that you can sympathize with one or the other. I would guess what side you choose is largely based on personal preference and/or experience.

That is all to say, I loved the final episode and this is a great show. My main takeaway was the conclusion of Werner. I had a lot of sympathy for Werner, but he should've known better. The scene of him fighting with his wife over the phone was heartbreaking.

There are numerous examples of Chuck treating Jimmy like ***** I will admit that we don't know the whole backstory, so it's possible that Jimmy conned his parents or Chuck in the past (but that's speculation). We do know that Chuck treated Jimmy like ***** He constantly accepted Jimmy's care, etc and gave him nothing in return, other than constantly trying to keep him down in life.

And you are right, he did get Jimmy a job at the law firm. And then tried to make it impossible for Jimmy to move out of the mail room. He didn't mind having Jimmy around as long as Jimmy was well underneath him. And he made it a point in life to make sure Jimmy was always underneath him, even when Jimmy had turned a corner and was doing great work on the class action lawsuit.

I didn't see much evidence of Chuck loving Jimmy. I feel like you have to really stretch to find evidence that he cared for Jimmy at all. And there is ample evidence of him not caring or treating him badly. But I understand the argument that it could have been justified if Jimmy has always somehow screwed over his family in the past.

In all seriousness would anyone rather have Jimmy as a little brother or Chuck as a big brother? Personally I'd take Chuck, he's a condescending ass but he's not a con artist.

I agree that Jimmy's actions end up proving Chuck right. Looking back, he was right about Jimmy all along.

But I also think Chuck's ****ty actions played a part in Jimmy turning bad. Never being able to get Chuck's approval, even when he did stuff the right way with hard work, eventually made Jimmy have a **** it attitude (bc he could never fit in or get approval from his brother) and start taking short cuts.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I think you are saying Chuck should have given Jimmy the benefit of the doubt more. But Chuck knew the truth about Jimmy. He would always take advantage and take short cuts. That's why he was never happy with him being a lawyer. He did help him with the lawsuit but I'm sure he always was suspicious in the back of his mind.

It does go to show how great the writing is because you want to hate Chuck for never trusting Jimmy and believing in him, but you also know Jimmy really is the slipping Jimmy Chuck has always seen him as.

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That's a good thought. Is it possible that Kim is a foil to Chuck? In contrast to Chuck, she always gave him the benefit of the doubt, fought hard for him the way she thought Chuck should fight but never did, and now she's standing there in that hallway and she's reached the same conclusion that Chuck did.

Yes, she's cut some corners with Jimmy but as she said a couple of weeks ago, she wanted to use it for good; Jimmy just cuts to cut like he told the shoplifter girl.

Texaggie7nine said:

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I think that is a good way to see it. Kim thinks Jimmy really does have a heart deep down, and just covers it. But she may now be thinking, he really only cares about himself.

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Oddly enough, she's the only one that he is honest with. He probably could keep her forever if he was willing to lie to her like everybody else. But he's up front with her about everything, and it's going to drive her away.

The lesson it will teach him is to never be honest to anybody. All it does is add to his misery.

johnnyblaze36 said:

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Just finished and man I hate not being able to binge shows all the way through. That was greatness.

Can anybody explain why Jimmy was in the meeting with HHM when the scholarship candidates were being interviewed even though he hadn't been reinstated yet?

Was it because of his gesture of the book wing? Before that, the last interaction I recall them having two or three episodes ago was Jimmy ripping into Howard and Howard telling him "f you".

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I figured the scholarship was a memorial to Chuck so they asked Jimmy to be on the selection committee

IIRC Jimmy was appointed that position on the selection committee at the request of Chuck in his will.

Just finished. That was so damn good. Chills at the end.

"S'all good man!"

You know, Gus never gave Mike explicit instructions; Mike just went ahead and decided to kill Werner and send the rest home. I keep picturing a scene next season where Gus is like, "You did WHAT? I just wanted to bring him an NDA to sign!"

Mr.Bond said:

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I had this conversation with some friends at lunch today. Mike is REALLY showing age, I don't see how it can go past another season without some cgi which may be too expensive for a television show

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Suspension of disbelief.

I never even think about it honestly. He's just Mike.

oragator said:

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Again, it's the small things that this show does so well.

The last shot of him literally walking away from a stunned and vulnerable Kim is so perfect - symbolic and heart rending.
The shot when Werner is killed was perfectly filmed.
The setup for the gum was so typical for the show.

And has been hashed out for pages now, even after all this time there isn't really a good guy or a bad guy between him and Chuck, it's all a matter of perspective.

As far as the future of the show, it shed around 20 percent of its audience this year overall again, so it may not have more than next season, though given it's prestige they may give it one more extra year to close it out right (a la The Americans). Would be surprised if it made it past 6 though and not surprised at all if 5 is it - I think we are coming towards the end.

I just know that whatever Gilligan does after this will have me sitting in front of the tv on premiere night, this group is just great for tv.

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I love the show, but the lag between 10-episode seasons is kind of a burnout. I can understand why they lose viewers. With that much dead air between seasons people move on to other entertainment.

Great Finale.

I liked what they did with Kim and Jimmy. Remember Kim says, "No matter what happens in there, I'm with you"...thinking he might get denied.

Then they leave the court room, Jimmy shows his true colors, and you can see her realizing how she was conned alongside everyone else....almost like she was thinking 'who is this guy??" Such a dramatic shift in such a short time..

When Jimmy went "off-script", Kim thought he might have actually started speaking genuinely. It's clear from her reactions.