Brian Earl Spilner said:

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It's a bit worrisome that the viewership doesn't seem to be growing at all.

GoT started out averaging ~2.5 million per episode in the first season, and by this time in Season 2 was almost up to 4 million viewers.

Westworld ratings have actually dropped this season, with last episode getting only 1.59 million viewers.

Are these numbers good enough? With such a big budget, I doubt HBO is thrilled with these numbers. If these don't go way up in Season 3, I fear it may be done after 3.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2018/05/13/westworld-season-2-ratings-are-moving-in-the-wrong-direction/

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Don't TV shows typically trend downward in viewership numbers the longer they run? GoT would be an exception to this obviously, but it also already had a large following because of the books anyways.

Regardless, while I do think HBO likes numbers and critical acclaim (what network wouldn't... except maybe Syfy which **** canned The Expanse), I don't think HBO is as focused on that as much as broadcast or other cable shows might be. Primarily because it's a subscription channel and people can watch HBO programming now without having to sign up for a bunch of channels the probably won't watch and as long as people are subscribing to HBO Now or via Amazon channels, it's going to be about what's driving to subscribe.

Wow, I totally brain farted on that. It being a subscription service almost makes the numbers irrelevant as long as they're not losing subscribers.

Still, would be nice to see it grow.

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Primarily because it's a subscription channel and people can watch HBO programming now without having to sign up for a bunch of channels the probably won't watch and as long as people are subscribing to HBO Now or via Amazon channels, it's going to be about what's driving to subscribe.

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This. The show doesn't have to be in the black when it airs to still be a financial success long term.

JJxvi said:

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Is Big Little Lies a series? I thought it was a stand alone miniseries, havent watched it,

As for the Deuce, just 2 million on all-platforms? Doesnt Westworld way outperform that? The first season of Westworld was like 11 or 12 million all-platforms, I thought, and assumed would be way more than 2 million when eventually totaled up for these episodes. Westworld is certainly bigger than the Deuce on raw ratings, so I doubt they are gonna be looking to replace that unless the Deuce is on an un-HBO like budget.

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Yeah Big Little Lies is a series.

Certainly those series are not as big..... but also not as big a budget. I was just mentioning other series and they have a chance to grow as each was renewed.

Save The Expanse!

If you're a fan of sci-fi and think good shows should be rewarded and not cancelled, please sign the petition. Even if you don't watch the show, sign it. Believe me, in a few years once you decide to binge watch it you will wonder why you didn't watch before it was cancelled and will want more.

https://www.change.org/p/netflix-netflix-please-buy-the-rights-to-the-expanse/w?source_location=psf_petitions

Westworld related because I bet there are a few people on this thread who enjoy intelligent sci-fi.

[/end thread hijack]

For those that like to go beyond just watching the show, this is another good Alt Shift X type video channel - Hax Dogma. It's got some great call backs that I missed.

My wife basically only watches the show and she doesn't have any confusion week to week.

I actually think they've done a good job of making this show both interesting on the surface and to folks who like to dig into the details.

I only watch the show and don't give it a moment of thought after each episode, but still generally enjoy it.

Delos as Desmond was amazing. Every scene involving that fish tank was incredibly well done.



I can def buy into William/MOB in current timeline being a host/human.

The relationship between Delos' solvent for destabilization being incineration, and what is likely Ford's approach to the same being water (rain), tips off that MIB is likely a host/human. Delos in the scenes with Ellie and Bernard appears to have stabilized in terms of speech and motor functions - although is definitely in black hat mode. Contrast that with MIB's game and his new white hat deeds...

Why would Ford bring William back and a host/human? William owns Delos, who owns all the hosts. If William becomes self aware as a host/human, who better to protect or preserve or set free the other hosts?

- but more than that Ford would be helping to fix William, through a new story that he has created just for William. Thats is where I think you see the differing back story in how his wife died......"lies that told a deeper truth". A story that helps William become the man he has dreamed of being. If this is the case, its likely that Ford gave William a backstory that his wife did kill herself, instead of the ambiguous overdose for which his daughter blames him - new backstory is a lie, but tells a deeper truth. William's game begins where he ends, and ends where he begins. He began as a white hat, black hat is ending.

Further, these host/humans would not be "only human after all"


This would all be 100% in line with the overall messages of the series relating to consciousness, self awareness, what it means to be human, fast vs free will, good vs evil, etc.

Note Bernard's destabilization symptoms are a lot like Delos'. We are led or misled to believe its due to losing fluid, but is it?

What did Ford send Bernard to steal from the lab (sometime during season 1)? Was it Arnold's mind? Was it William's?

It strikes me as too big of a coincidence that William's daughter stumbled across him while he is on his journey/game, designed by Ford.

Ford (as girl) to William: "The game begins where you end, and ends where you began."

Makes so much sense now. He's a host, y'all.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Ford (as girl) to William: "The game begins where you end, and ends where you began."

Makes so much sense now. He's a host, y'all.

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Yeah I forgot to mention that line also, that's another narrative tick in that theory's favor.

Brian Earl Spilner said:

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Ford (as girl) to William: "The game begins where you end, and ends where you began."

Makes so much sense now. He's a host, y'all.

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Yeah, that was an interesting one to me.I also recall Ford stating Beethover, Chopin simply "became music" when they died. That is why I threw out the "Ford is alive in the system/mainframe" wild ass theory. He seems to be in control of so much in some scenes - either because he's an excellent predictive programmer, or he's alive in the system, or those scenes are in timelines before his death and I haven't figured that out. I do drink quite a bit on Sunday nights, pathetic mourning of the weekend ending and having to head back to my 8-5 M-F job, so I get confused easily.

claym711 said:

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I still wonder who Ford was creating in the basement of the old house where Teresa was killed...

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You know, that's a good question. I haven't thought about that for a while. Though part of me thinks his 'host making machines' were running just to show the audience that he could do it.

I still think the most obvious explanation is that Ford is still alive and the version of him that got shot was a host/clone. So what we saw in that lab could be the host version of himself being built.

I thought about that, but in keeping with the Biblical theme, I don't think Ford will again walk amongst his creations - at least as Ford in appearance. It could have been a new William body - and the mind that Bernard was stealing for Ford was William's. Although that leaves in question, if William was killed the night of the host attack, who placed his new body at the scene?

I also think this upcoming flood will be biblically referenced. Does that make Bernard/Arnold Noah? Wonder who Moses will be - parts the sea and leads Ford's people out of slavery.

****, do I have to go back and watch Season 1 over again? Am I getting that into this show? I don't have time for that.

I think there are obviously a lot of biblical allusions in the show, but I don't think it's going to be that specific. This show references all kinds of stuff. There's a couple rabbit holes each week that Reddit goes down.

I've said before that I don't like the idea of Ford being alive, but I do think it is by far the simplest explanation with the given evidence.

You laugh about the "The Maze" and "The Door" but that's actually part of the "The MIB is a host/clone" theory in that 'the maze' was how Dolores finds herself. 'The Door' is how the MIB finds himself.

At any rate, I think most of this conversation isn't making much headway this weekend, I'm expecting this episode to be all-in on Shogun World and not show anything else.

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I still wonder who Ford was creating in the basement of the old house where Teresa was killed...

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Forgot about that.

Awesome and insightful as usual.

I'm not sure I completely follow the idea that it's Arnold's mind.

Is the idea that Ford somehow captured Arnold's mind a long time ago, but had to wait for the hybrid technology to catch up before he could install it in a body?

Or Perhaps each iteration of Bernard was an attempt at an Arnold (basically the same as Delos) and when they failed, he'd make a new one/decommission the old one and try again? (thus the closet full of Bernards we're going to see?)

Is there a clear understanding of when Arnold died in comparison to William first coming to the park?

bobinator said:

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I'm not sure I completely follow the idea that it's Arnold's mind.

Is the idea that Ford somehow captured Arnold's mind a long time ago, but had to wait for the hybrid technology to catch up before he could install it in a body?

Or Perhaps each iteration of Bernard was an attempt at an Arnold (basically the same as Delos) and when they failed, he'd make a new one/decommission the old one and try again? (thus the closet full of Bernards we're going to see?)

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I dont like that. Bernard is a host based on the same tech as the rest of the hosts in the park, and also subject to commands and forced cognitive dissonance, etc.

Yeah, he was definitely dead before that because he had Dolores kill him in the hopes that his death would prevent the opening of the park.

That's kind of why I'm having trouble with that theory. Ford would have had to come up with the idea to put human minds in host bodies before William thought of it, which then wouldn't make it William's mistake at all, it's something that Ford was already working on.

Any human/host hybrid could be made subject to same commands and other tech. You saw with Delos they could control him via tablet. Its just coding.

Elsie and Bernard specifically made a distinction that the host minds are "code" ie commands written and programmed by humans, and that the units being manufactured at the facility with Delos were similar in nature but were not code (ie it was whatever nature's programming language is). This was shortly before or after Elsie rooted around in Bernard's skull with an ipad as well with no problems mentioned other than the obvious ones Bernard was having. Bernard is a host who is integrated with the "code" based control systems of the park based on everything we've seen.

True, but they were able to pause Jim Delos via tablet, so host/human hybrids CAN be controlled.

Bernard was controlled in sophisticated ways. I'm also talking about stuff like not being able to see doors that he was not supposed to or not being able to see photographs, and the response "That doesn't look like anything to me."

It would seem to be a real stretch if they had the ability to alter and edit a real human's brain file to put in new commands...and this would be available even before they perfected the part where they are even able to get just copying the file into a new body to work. The only commands we know that worked on Delos are "turn on" (which we have to assume they did), and "turn off" which is what we see happen. Nobody made him do anything else right?

I guess its possible that he was a host in the memories, and now has Arnold's brain (which I guess they would have to have been storing for years), but I find it annoying then that Elsie could take a look under the hood and diagnose him without finding out that whopper.

Theres also the fact that Bernard is clearly not Arnold. He has a different backstory and had no clue who Arnold was. Ford would have had to have been failing at making Arnold, but them converting them back into Bernard's after they failed...