**** Game of Thrones Season 6 - Show Only ****

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Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
Would have been a good plan had the status quo not changed in Kings Landing. Cersei has no power anymore and Tommen is controlled by the faith.

Regardless he has a decree.....and Tommen is still King.

And really it matters not in the end.

It is safe to say that ALL of the Boltons were wiped out (Umbers and Karstarks too).
And at least half of the Starks/wildling army.

LF has 10,000+ men and the royal decree. He will take Winterfell and there really is nothing Jon can do about it.

They have no way to fight him. Jon threw everything into taking Winterfell, he has nothing left.

Their only choice really is to join him. Once he is inside and controls it, doesn't matter if Tommen dies.



Brian Earl Spilner
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Anyone else think Sansa sets her sights on Walder Frey now? Assuming the Vale is heading home now, they'll pass right by the Twins, correct? Maybe that is where Jon is heading next season.
Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
quote:
My prediction - next episode they show that in the preview. and by the end, the Lion is flying over Winterfell.
Seriously doubt this. He's always played the game more carefully than that. He will not outright take Winterfell away from Sansa, instead he will try to manipulate her as he does everyone else. He wants to be the man behind the man (or woman in this case).

Lannisters are on their way out. There is no reason to break his alliance with the Starks in order to remain "in" with the Lannisters.

He doesn't care what banner is flying, he just wants to be the one in control.

did you not read this part:



quote:
"He will make a play for Sansa before breaking the news to them."


Yes he will try to get Sansa to marry him, thus forging the families together and controlling the north.

But in the end one way or another, he will control Winterfell. If she refuses, he takes it by force and decree. If she agrees then he gets it that way.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Yes, I read that part. And like I said, I disagree.

If he controls Robin and Sansa, he is the de facto Lord of both Winterfell and the Vale.

If he takes Winterfell away from the Starks, he is potentially making an enemy out of the remaining Stark loyalists, the Tullys, etc.
Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
Yes, I read that part. And like I said, I disagree.
you disagree by saying he will manipulate her - pretty much exactly what i said, he will "make a play" for her.

I'm just saying IF he fails in that he takes it by force....but it likely never comes to that. However, the threat of that is more than enough to make it happen.
Brian Earl Spilner
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You said a lion banner will fly over Winterfell. I disagree. You said he will take Winterfell away from Sansa by force if necessary. I disagree.

Remember, Littlefinger is the master of the long game. He won't show his cards yet. IMO.
Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
You said a lion banner will fly over Winterfell. I disagree. You said he will take Winterfell away from Sansa by force if necessary. I disagree.

we'll see.....when i see Littlefinger fail at something I'll start doubting his word.

The banner is more or less inconsequential anyway - either way its under the crown - that was just LFs words. The Vale which he controls is loyal to the crown, and WF will be too. For as long as it serves his purpose and motives anyway. Once he is strong enough he won't care about serving the crown.

Yes he is likely playing Cersei too of course.

And again I'm only saying LF would do that if necessary...I really don't think it comes to that...because the threat of that is more than enough to make it happen. He holds all the cards really (the Vale, the decree, the army).
Brian Earl Spilner
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The interesting thing is, what happens if Sansa breaks the news to Robin about who really killed Lysa?
HtownAg92
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Sansa is the Elizabeth Taylor of Westeros

She was betrothed to a "Baratheon"
She married a Lannister
She married a Bolton
She could be married off to a Littlefinger, or in some incestual mixup, an Arryn

All that is left is to marry a Targaryan - Jon Snow
BowSowy
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quote:
The interesting thing is, what happens if Sansa breaks the news to Robin about who really killed Lysa?
This is where I think it's heading. I think Littlefinger's games will catch up to him soon.
Zombie Jon Snow
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The interesting thing is, what happens if Sansa breaks the news to Robin about who really killed Lysa?
true. i think he is safely hiding back at the Vale right now though. out of harms way and out of the action.

LF would be smart enough to have someone intercept letters I think.

but who knows....she could play that trump card. better be damn careful if you do though.

Also of note - Bran should be heading to the wall and maybe back to the other side now. thats a curveball too, you don't need a warden of the north if you have a true heir.
oh no
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quote:
quote:
The interesting thing is, what happens if Sansa breaks the news to Robin about who really killed Lysa?
This is where I think it's heading. I think Littlefinger's games will catch up to him soon.
...or.... Lord Baelish has designs to get rid of Sansa at some point so his games don't catch up to him... he promised Cersi he'd get rid of Sansa.. he wants to be Warden of the North... he's already taken over the Vale. He's already given Sansa to Ramsay Bolton. ...he just executed his exact plan in the North beautifully... with the victor still licking his wounds like he promised... He's an evil genius. Great character.
marble rye
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LF is more loyal to his **** than Cersei. He wants Sansa bc he couldn't have Cat.
smokeythebear
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quote:
quote:
quote:
The interesting thing is, what happens if Sansa breaks the news to Robin about who really killed Lysa?
This is where I think it's heading. I think Littlefinger's games will catch up to him soon.
...or.... Lord Baelish has designs to get rid of Sansa at some point so his games don't catch up to him... he promised Cersi he'd get rid of Sansa.. he wants to be Warden of the North... he's already taken over the Vale. He's already given Sansa to Ramsay Bolton. ...he just executed his exact plan in the North beautifully... with the victor still licking his wounds like he promised... He's an evil genius. Great character.
You forget that LF also murdered Cersei's eldest son. He's not exactly looking to please her. He said that to her so she could let him leave KL (remember he was called there at her request). He wanted an excuse for mobilizing the army and taking Winterfell. Things have changed now and his ultimate gameplan isn't just to please Cersei, he probably sees the tides shifting in KL. He'll make sure to play nice with the Starks until such a time he is forced to pick a side. And when that day comes, he'll pick the winning side.
bangobango
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quote:

That's exactly what I told my wife that scene reminded me of.
bangobango
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quote:
quote:
Would have been a good plan had the status quo not changed in Kings Landing. Cersei has no power anymore and Tommen is controlled by the faith.

Regardless he has a decree.....and Tommen is still King.

And really it matters not in the end.

It is safe to say that ALL of the Boltons were wiped out (Umbers and Karstarks too).
And at least half of the Starks/wildling army.

LF has 10,000+ men and the royal decree. He will take Winterfell and there really is nothing Jon can do about it.

They have no way to fight him. Jon threw everything into taking Winterfell, he has nothing left.

Their only choice really is to join him. Once he is inside and controls it, doesn't matter if Tommen dies.




1. I don't think he has a decree. i believe the decree was contingent on him destroying the victor between Stannis and Bolton, which he did not do, so who knows if it is still a valid offer. I cannot imagine Cersei will be happy about him aiding Jon Snow and Sansa.

2. Where are you getting that he has 10,000 men? that's a huge force compared to the numbers we've heard thrown around this season. Not saying it's not true, just don't remember hearing that anywhere. Jon's numbers were less than 4k I believe and Bolton's were around 5-6k.
bangobango
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nm. keep getting my threads screwed up. sorry again.
PascalsWager
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I'm confused by the Dany/ Yara Theon conversation. Yara wants an independent Iron Islands and Dany wants to be Queen of the 7 Kingdoms. How are both of those things possible?

The feudal relationships aren't properly explained in the show.
bobinator
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She basically is letting the Iron Islands be independent with the promise that they won't raid and pillage like they have been doing forever.
MSFC Aggie
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Are the Iron Islands part of the "Seven Kingdoms"?
Legal Custodian
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quote:
Are the Iron Islands part of the "Seven Kingdoms"?
I think technically they were under the Starks. I they were trying to rebel and that's why Theon was sent to live at Winterfell as a psuedo hostage
PascalsWager
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quote:
She basically is letting the Iron Islands be independent with the promise that they won't raid and pillage like they have been doing forever.
But what is her incentive to do this? She can leverage putting Yara back in control of the Iron Islands by killing Euron while STILL making her swear fealty as the Ironborn always have. And if they get out of control, She is their feudal lord and she has dragons.
gougler08
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quote:
quote:
She basically is letting the Iron Islands be independent with the promise that they won't raid and pillage like they have been doing forever.
But what is her incentive to do this? She can leverage putting Yara back in control of the Iron Islands by killing Euron while STILL making her swear fealty as the Ironborn always have. And if they get out of control, She is their feudal lord and she has dragons.
Because she wants to hit that...
bobinator
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quote:
Because she wants to hit that...

It could be that simple, she seems to simply really like Yara.
Brian Earl Spilner
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Yara got an ass.
oh no
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smokeythebear
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quote:
quote:
She basically is letting the Iron Islands be independent with the promise that they won't raid and pillage like they have been doing forever.
But what is her incentive to do this? She can leverage putting Yara back in control of the Iron Islands by killing Euron while STILL making her swear fealty as the Ironborn always have. And if they get out of control, She is their feudal lord and she has dragons.
Yara ASKED. No one else has ASKED Dany for anything. She likes Yara and thinks she would be a loyal ally. "loyal ally" or "feudal lord", what's the difference? The negotiated terms still requires Yara keep her people under check. Dany still NEEDS Yara's ships so she has an incentive to make a deal as well.
Rudyjax
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Tara asked because she had nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Zombie Jon Snow
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quote:
quote:
quote:
Would have been a good plan had the status quo not changed in Kings Landing. Cersei has no power anymore and Tommen is controlled by the faith.

Regardless he has a decree.....and Tommen is still King.

And really it matters not in the end.

It is safe to say that ALL of the Boltons were wiped out (Umbers and Karstarks too).
And at least half of the Starks/wildling army.

LF has 10,000+ men and the royal decree. He will take Winterfell and there really is nothing Jon can do about it.

They have no way to fight him. Jon threw everything into taking Winterfell, he has nothing left.

Their only choice really is to join him. Once he is inside and controls it, doesn't matter if Tommen dies.




1. I don't think he has a decree. i believe the decree was contingent on him destroying the victor between Stannis and Bolton, which he did not do, so who knows if it is still a valid offer. I cannot imagine Cersei will be happy about him aiding Jon Snow and Sansa.

2. Where are you getting that he has 10,000 men? that's a huge force compared to the numbers we've heard thrown around this season. Not saying it's not true, just don't remember hearing that anywhere. Jon's numbers were less than 4k I believe and Bolton's were around 5-6k.

1. In what way did he not wipe out the victor (Boltons) between Stannis and the Boltons? thats exactly what he did. Why would you assume he has no decree. Cersei said she would talk to the king that day and "have him draw up a decree" - I would assume LF wouldn't do anything without that otherwise he is just operating on his own and not in the crowns interest.

2. I've heard the Knights of Vale is that big although to be honest I'm not sure if it was in the show or some reddit show based thread. I know in the show the Lannisters army was originally 60,000 and Robbs in the north was 20,000. It's smaller than those but trained to fight in the ice and snow (LF said). It quickly and completely swallowed Boltons 6,000 in this battle of which maybe 4-5,000 were still alive at that point. I would guess thats also consistent with 10,000 men and a lot were cavalry giving them a decided advantage.



Burrus86
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Assuming Jon and Davos convince LF that the real threat are the WWs? Any claim he has on WF is moot if he buys into the threat. While Little Mormont is a ten year old kid, she was smart enough to listen to Davos. In this scenario, where do you think it goes from LF's perspective? In their reality, all of his "plans" are likely ruined if the WWs come south.
jbanda
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Has Davos seen white walkers or is he just relying on the word of Jon? I can't remember.
bobinator
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Well...



relevant LF quote is at about 3:43 - "He would see this country burn if he could be king of the ashes."
The Dog Lord
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quote:
Are the Iron Islands part of the "Seven Kingdoms"?
There are nine administrative areas now, but there were seven at the time of Aegon's Conquest. The Iron Islands was one of the seven. They and the Stormlands both claimed the Riverlands at that point.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Seven_Kingdoms
bangobango
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quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
Would have been a good plan had the status quo not changed in Kings Landing. Cersei has no power anymore and Tommen is controlled by the faith.

Regardless he has a decree.....and Tommen is still King.

And really it matters not in the end.

It is safe to say that ALL of the Boltons were wiped out (Umbers and Karstarks too).
And at least half of the Starks/wildling army.

LF has 10,000+ men and the royal decree. He will take Winterfell and there really is nothing Jon can do about it.

They have no way to fight him. Jon threw everything into taking Winterfell, he has nothing left.

Their only choice really is to join him. Once he is inside and controls it, doesn't matter if Tommen dies.




1. I don't think he has a decree. i believe the decree was contingent on him destroying the victor between Stannis and Bolton, which he did not do, so who knows if it is still a valid offer. I cannot imagine Cersei will be happy about him aiding Jon Snow and Sansa.

2. Where are you getting that he has 10,000 men? that's a huge force compared to the numbers we've heard thrown around this season. Not saying it's not true, just don't remember hearing that anywhere. Jon's numbers were less than 4k I believe and Bolton's were around 5-6k.

1. In what way did he not wipe out the victor (Boltons) between Stannis and the Boltons? thats exactly what he did. Why would you assume he has no decree. Cersei said she would talk to the king that day and "have him draw up a decree" - I would assume LF wouldn't do anything without that otherwise he is just operating on his own and not in the crowns interest.

2. I've heard the Knights of Vale is that big although to be honest I'm not sure if it was in the show or some reddit show based thread. I know in the show the Lannisters army was originally 60,000 and Robbs in the north was 20,000. It's smaller than those but trained to fight in the ice and snow (LF said). It quickly and completely swallowed Boltons 6,000 in this battle of which maybe 4-5,000 were still alive at that point. I would guess thats also consistent with 10,000 men and a lot were cavalry giving them a decided advantage.




The whole leverage to the agreement was that Ramsey was going to marry Sansa, which made the Boltons "traitors." Cersei concludes the discussions with "I'll know you are true to your word when I see Sansa Stark's head on a spike."

In addition, prior to that comment, Cersei asks him "What if you succeed?" To which Littlefinger replies "Make me Warden of the North." So, the spirit of the bargain was that he was to destroy whoever won the battle between Stannis and Boltons AND capture and execute Sansa Stark.

I don't know how the show will go with it, they may make it where he already has the official decree, but I can guarantee you Cersei is not going to agree that he fulfilled his promise when she finds out that rather than destroying the armies of Stannis and/or Bolton he instead helped Sansa Stark retake Winterfell. Of course, at this point, if he does already have a royal decree on him, then there may not be anybody left to revoke it by the time Cersei's done with King's Landing.

Sansa's big part in all of this may just be keeping LIttlefinger in line and/or preventing him from interfering with Jon Snow.

And I would be shocked if he hurts Sansa (unless she just completely rejects him).
FbgTxAg
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LF could have just told Sansa to go F herself when she wrote for help. You had to think LF was gonna wipe out Bolton after Bolton wiped out John and Sansa, so he must see some advantage in having Starks back in WF.

Dude always knows the angles.
 
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