quote:Not my problemquote:quote:What about when Jaqen is speaking directly to the waif ordering to kill Ayra? How the hell does that work?quote:
Is GoT "Fight Clubbing" Us?
I hated this theory...until I thought more about it.
Perhaps the Waif only exists in Arya's mind, and those scenes where Arya (the blind homeless girl) was beaten in the street up by the Waif simply looked like a schizophrenic homeless girl flailing her stick around as if fighting an imaginary person. That's why people seemed to glance over for a brief second as she started fighting the Waif in the street, but nobody really cared after that first glance.
The theory here is that a person's inner "faceless man" must kill off its previous identity. It's a long process that starts with the inner faceless man showing up. It's presence causes a lot of conflict as you can imagine, but what appears to the audience to be conflict with another person is really inner conflict. That conflict continues to grow, starting with little spats of words and eventually getting physical & violent. It culminates with the murder of "the person" by the inner "faceless man." So it isn't really that a girl becomes noone...it's that a girl dies, and noone is all that's left.
Or at least that's how it's supposed to be. It could also culminate into the person killing the inner faceless man in self defense. If that happens, the person will never become noone...because noone is dead. As of right now, Arya and noone (the Waif) are both still alive, so it could go either way. Arya is putting up a fight that Jaqen didn't expect.
If you go back and watch Arya's interactions with the Waif on youtube, I think there's a very good chance this theory is right. This clip is especially convincing for me. Starting at 2:35, Arya asks the Waif who she is. She says she's from Westeros, just like Arya and the daughter of a Lord, just like Arya. Then her story starts to stray from Arya's story quite a bit. Perhaps this is Arya learning to lie about her identity but basing it on reality (which are the most effective lies). The Waif then calls Arya out for not being able to tell if it was true or not. The scene at 4:15 has Arya trying to lie to Jaqen using the exact same strategy...starting with the truth and then straying from it, but it failed to convince him because she was Arya and not her inner faceless man (the Waif).
I think the stabbing wasn't real...at least not in the physical sense. It was figurative. If you notice, the crowd looking at Arya didn't react like people looking at a little girl bleeding to death before their eyes. They acted like people looking at weird little schizophrenic girl crying & holding her stomach as if in pain and stumbling around.
Is Jaqen just part of Ayra's mind as well? At the end of all this Ayra is just dreaming on a rocky ship on it's way to Bravos, which is inside a set of marbles that is being played by alien Bruce Willis who died playing on his childhood sled Rosebud.
You just spoiled like four movies for me.
**** Game of Thrones Season 6 - Show Only ****
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Last: 7 yr ago by Rex Racer
quote:Arya is Kaiser Soze?
What about when Jaqen is speaking directly to the waif ordering to kill Ayra? How the hell does that work?
Is Jaqen just part of Ayra's mind as well? At the end of all this Ayra is just dreaming on a rocky ship on it's way to Bravos, which is inside a set of marbles that is being played by alien Bruce Willis who died playing on his childhood sled Rosebud.
The Waif is Finkle? Finkle is the Waif? The Waif is a Man?
It's not your fault, but I'm going to be pissed if this is right.
I don't think it is. I think it's exactly what they showed us.
I think when they didn't come for her right away, she thought she was in the clear.
And the waif stabbed her in the stomach to make her suffer.
I don't think it is. I think it's exactly what they showed us.
I think when they didn't come for her right away, she thought she was in the clear.
And the waif stabbed her in the stomach to make her suffer.
As weird as this show is showing the passage of time, we don't know how long Arya was hiding. Her hair appeared to be significantly longer in this episode, so maybe she's been in hiding for a while? Maybe she thought the coast was clear?
Well done.
quote:It's certainly possible that the waif didn't necessarily believe the kill was confirmed, but instead thought "I'll let her suffer for a few days trying to patch that up and then I'll track her down again and finish it off". May explain the "sloppy kill" and not following up to confirm the kill.
It's not your fault, but I'm going to be pissed if this is right.
I don't think it is. I think it's exactly what they showed us.
I think when they didn't come for her right away, she thought she was in the clear.
And the waif stabbed her in the stomach to make her suffer.
Any time Jaqen is talking to the Waif without Arya around, it's Arya's body but the Waif's mind that he's talking to...and he knows it.
quote:
Any time Jaqen is talking to the Waif without Arya around, it's Arya's body but the Waif's mind that he's talking to...and he knows it.
^THIS
at times she is the Waif and at times she is Arya - and in those times the other is imaginary.
If Arya leaves a scene then Arya is the Waif talking to Jaqen.
If the Waif leaves then it is just Arya talking to Jaqen.
On the streets it is just one person - we don't really know which - and the people are looking at her strange because she looks bat S crazy. But nobody intervenes because she isn't in danger (when they were fighting) and she isn't injured. And she wasn't really blind either. Just imaginary blind. The waif could see just fine.
In fact the whole idea behind why Arya learned to beat her when blind was because the Waif could see and the Waif is Arya. So Arya knew the Waifs movements and vice versa - she just had to learn how.
I like this theory the more think about it. Explains everything really.
I don't think it will be revealed the crazy flashback way it was in Fight Club though. I think we simply see Arya die and the Waif is victorious and then the Waif removes her face and it is Arya ...errr no one.
Yea, but then there are a BUNCH of problems with this.
1) That means Arya actually hasn't learned a thing about fighting, aka just swinging a staff around in circles hitting imaginary people?
2) Arya, the Stark girl as we know her, still "dies" and she becomes the "Waif". So what if she keeps Arya's face, we're not in love with the face, we're in love with the character and the character would still have to "die".
3) So which one was the one walking through the city looking all weird and flaunting money? Was that "Arya" Arya or "Waif" Arya?
No doubt, it is possible, but I feel like this would greatly hinder the evidence of character development. What good is a Waif/Arya who stays in Bravos and assassinates local actors for a few coins?
1) That means Arya actually hasn't learned a thing about fighting, aka just swinging a staff around in circles hitting imaginary people?
2) Arya, the Stark girl as we know her, still "dies" and she becomes the "Waif". So what if she keeps Arya's face, we're not in love with the face, we're in love with the character and the character would still have to "die".
3) So which one was the one walking through the city looking all weird and flaunting money? Was that "Arya" Arya or "Waif" Arya?
No doubt, it is possible, but I feel like this would greatly hinder the evidence of character development. What good is a Waif/Arya who stays in Bravos and assassinates local actors for a few coins?
Uproxx: What You May Have Missed
There is a shot of Arya in the House of B&W looking at the faces. The one she is looking at is the face of the old lady the Waif used. I think that is more evidence pointing towards the Fight Club Theory.
There is a shot of Arya in the House of B&W looking at the faces. The one she is looking at is the face of the old lady the Waif used. I think that is more evidence pointing towards the Fight Club Theory.
quote:1. Um no, she got better at fighting the imaginary person.
Yea, but then there are a BUNCH of problems with this.
1) That means Arya actually hasn't learned a thing about fighting, aka just swinging a staff around in circles hitting imaginary people?
2) Arya, the Stark girl as we know her, still "dies" and she becomes the "Waif". So what if she keeps Arya's face, we're not in love with the face, we're in love with the character and the character would still have to "die".
3) So which one was the one walking through the city looking all weird and flaunting money? Was that "Arya" Arya or "Waif" Arya?
No doubt, it is possible, but I feel like this would greatly hinder the evidence of character development. What good is a Waif/Arya who stays in Bravos and assassinates local actors for a few coins?
2. she didn't die, it was a internal struggle that " Arya", Arya is trying to win and get rid of the waif. She made a choice to be Arya again.
3. Hence it was Arya Arya luring out waif.
Prediction: littlefinger and the Knights of the vale show up and the boltons are defeated. But then when the battle is over the KotV turn on the wildlings and Jon/Sansa and there is a massacre. That's how tormund gets it.
Par for the course for this show.
Par for the course for this show.
quote:What in the world does Littlefinger have to gain by killing the wildlings and Jon?
Prediction: littlefinger and the Knights of the vale show up and the boltons are defeated. But then when the battle is over the KotV turn on the wildlings and Jon/Sansa and there is a massacre. That's how tormund get it.
Why do people keep assuming Littlefinger is trying to kill Sansa and Jon? Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
Littlefinger could kill Jon and the wildlings and take Sansa for himself. Then he's got the vale and the north.
quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
quote:
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
quote:Agree to disagree. He knew exactly what would happen to Sansa the hands of Ramsy Bolton.
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
He may be the worst person
Ask Sansa's butthole how much of a good, upstanding matchmaker that Littlefinger is.
Agree with LHIOB. He's right up there with the worst. 100% self interest and there is no limit - murder, rape, everything. The only reason he wouldn't kill Sansa and Jon (if he has the chance) is if it's not in his self interest.
Agree with LHIOB. He's right up there with the worst. 100% self interest and there is no limit - murder, rape, everything. The only reason he wouldn't kill Sansa and Jon (if he has the chance) is if it's not in his self interest.
quote:Well, for starters, it isn't in his best interest. Also, look at who he has murdered: Joffrey and Lysa. Both of them were direct threats to Sansa's safety. Remember, he married Lysa, but it wasn't until Lysa threatened to kill Sansa that Littlefinger stepped in and had to murder her. And I think we can all agree that whomever helped murder Joffrey is definitely "on our good side".
Ask Sansa's butthole how much of a good, upstanding matchmaker that Littlefinger is.
Agree with LHIOB. He's right up there with the worst. 100% self interest and there is no limit - murder, rape, everything. The only reason he wouldn't kill Sansa and Jon (if he has the chance) is if it's not in his self interest.
I've made this argument before, but Littlefinger took a calculated risk with marrying Sansa to Ramsey that didn't pay off, but it wasn't a malicious attempt to hurt her.
Even though Joffrey was a monster, Margery wanted to marry him in order to gain power. The same happened for Dany. Arranged marriages are seldom only made to "upstanding gentlemen", but that's how arranged marriages work. Littlefinger probably didn't know very much about Ramsey, but he did know about Roose. Roose married a Frey girl and was good to her because he was a wise strategic thinker. Had Ramsey been more like his father, then Sansa would be queen of Winterfell right now.
Sure, Sansa should be pissed at Littlefinger, but that doesn't mean he did it maliciously.
quote:Whoever did the CGI is worse than Littlefinger.quote:
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
quote:quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
He didn't do any of that to protect Sansa. He needs Sansa to consolidate power in the North, and with Lysa's looney ass, he saw his choice was one or the other. He could always move forward with the little twit Robin instead of Lysa (Robin seems to be easier for him to control and manipulate anyway). Sansa has always been a poker chip to for him to gain power. Period.
quote:I'm trying to figure out if you are saying Dany volunteered to marry Drogo like Margaery did with Joffrey, or if you are comparing Drogo to Joffrey/Ramsey?
Even though Joffrey was a monster, Margery wanted to marry him in order to gain power. The same happened for Dany. Arranged marriages are seldom only made to "upstanding gentlemen", but that's how arranged marriages work.
quote:Wait....
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
quote:I think comparing Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger to Ned's relationship with Littlefinger is a little asinine. Littlefinger and Ned have known each other pretty much their entire lives and Ned is the dumb jock who took the love of his life away from him. Surely Littlefinger had a grudge against Ned. On the flipside, Sansa reminds Littlefinger of Catlyn, the love of his life, so he thinks very fondly of Sansa.quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
quote:Littlefingers soul ambition in life is the Iron Throne and he will use anyone and anything to get there.quote:I think comparing Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger to Ned's relationship with Littlefinger is a little asinine. Littlefinger and Ned have known each other pretty much their entire lives and Ned is the dumb jock who took the love of his life away from him. Surely Littlefinger had a grudge against Ned. On the flipside, Sansa reminds Littlefinger of Catlyn, the love of his life, so he thinks very fondly of Sansa.quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
Not sure if it's been touched upon in this thread, but even if Jon and Sansa manage to somehow defeat the Boltons, how are they going to consolidate power in the North after doing so with a Wildling army? Most of the other houses of the North hate the Wildlings and will resent Jon for bringing them over the wall just like the folks at Castle Black did. Seems like an awfully tall task for Jon.
quote:well when the WW army comes over (or through) the wall, they'll have to put that off for a while longer.
Not sure if it's been touched upon in this thread, but even if Jon and Sansa manage to somehow defeat the Boltons, how are they going to consolidate power in the North after doing so with a Wildling army? Most of the other houses of the North hate the Wildlings and will resent Jon for bringing them over the wall just like the folks at Castle Black did. Seems like an awfully tall task for Jon.
Then Dany will show up with her dragons and dothraki and noone will care about 2000 (minus casualties) wildlings.
quote:Disagree. He may, in the end, decide that Sansa is disposable for some personal gain or to save his own skin, but he "likes" her, and I think his ultimate end game is for him to consolidate as much power as possible and have Sansa by his side as he rules.
He didn't do any of that to protect Sansa. He needs Sansa to consolidate power in the North, and with Lysa's looney ass, he saw his choice was one or the other. He could always move forward with the little twit Robin instead of Lysa (Robin seems to be easier for him to control and manipulate anyway). Sansa has always been a poker chip to for him to gain power. Period.
quote:So in this scene:quote:
Any time Jaqen is talking to the Waif without Arya around, it's Arya's body but the Waif's mind that he's talking to...and he knows it.
^THIS
at times she is the Waif and at times she is Arya - and in those times the other is imaginary.
If Arya leaves a scene then Arya is the Waif talking to Jaqen.
If the Waif leaves then it is just Arya talking to Jaqen.
On the streets it is just one person - we don't really know which - and the people are looking at her strange because she looks bat S crazy. But nobody intervenes because she isn't in danger (when they were fighting) and she isn't injured. And she wasn't really blind either. Just imaginary blind. The waif could see just fine.
In fact the whole idea behind why Arya learned to beat her when blind was because the Waif could see and the Waif is Arya. So Arya knew the Waifs movements and vice versa - she just had to learn how.
I like this theory the more think about it. Explains everything really.
I don't think it will be revealed the crazy flashback way it was in Fight Club though. I think we simply see Arya die and the Waif is victorious and then the Waif removes her face and it is Arya ...errr no one.
Arya, the Waif, Jaqen are in the same room. Also, Arya throws her stuff into the sea off the pier (is that the same clothes shes wearing in S6, E8?), her clothes, her pouch of silver, and her Valar Morghulis coin. Then she takes Needle and buries it in the rocks.
Arya then follows Jaqen down to the dead body to learn how to dress it after death from the Waif. She asks the Waif "What do we do with them, after we wash them?" to which the Waif says nothing. (does she not know because she's actually Arya?)
quote:Ambitious, yes.quote:
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person.
Cunning, yes.
But I do sense, he can and will use people who he finds... reliable and honorable. He may not like them or trust them, but they would prove the most loyal and least likely to back-stab him - these are traits he can rely on.
quote:The same could be said about Dany.quote:Littlefingers soul ambition in life is the Iron Throne and he will use anyone and anything to get there.quote:I think comparing Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger to Ned's relationship with Littlefinger is a little asinine. Littlefinger and Ned have known each other pretty much their entire lives and Ned is the dumb jock who took the love of his life away from him. Surely Littlefinger had a grudge against Ned. On the flipside, Sansa reminds Littlefinger of Catlyn, the love of his life, so he thinks very fondly of Sansa.quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
quote:Also, Ned was uncontrollable because of his honor. Ned couldn't be paid, bartered, or negotiated with. Sansa can be controlled / manipulated (or at least "could" be in the past), we shall see if that continues to hold true.quote:I think comparing Sansa's relationship with Littlefinger to Ned's relationship with Littlefinger is a little asinine. Littlefinger and Ned have known each other pretty much their entire lives and Ned is the dumb jock who took the love of his life away from him. Surely Littlefinger had a grudge against Ned. On the flipside, Sansa reminds Littlefinger of Catlyn, the love of his life, so he thinks very fondly of Sansa.quote:"I told you not to trust me"
Littlefinger isn't actually a BAD person
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