****Official Euros 2020 (2021) Tournament Thread****

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Rudyjax
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In reply to Dre_00 • 8:34a, 7/12/21
AG
Dre_00 said:
jeffk said:
I've actually attended some really good development sessions on penalty kicks over the years. Confidence is huge but I think a lot hinges on having a plan and then sticking with it regardless of what you see once you approach the ball. And obviously being technically precise enough to execute that plan under pressure.
OK yes but...stutter stepping and trying to get the keeper to commit is in fact a plan. And maybe that's the big disconnect here. It comes off as lacking confidence or it comes off as being nervous. But it absolutely doesn't mean that.

I will concede that Rashford looked nervous last night but my conclusion was reached not from the type of penalty he took but his body language before taking it. Look at Bruno Fernandes or Pogba. They often (in the case of Bruno almost exclusively) use the stutter approach and I'd wager their conversion percentages are high.

Sidenote: no offense intended to those sharing the PK strategies they've employed as players but your "pick a target and hit it as hard as you can strategy" probably works a lot better when you aren't facing world class keepers with a penchant for saving penalties and who have likely reviewed thousands of hours of data to determine players tendencies, tells, etc.
Even the commentator knew the tendencies of players on PKs.

Rashford knew exactly what he was doing. He just hit it too far to the left.

This however only works for those that have taken numerous penalties.

An upper or lower 90 penalty is good 95 out of 100 times.

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Dre_00
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8:37a, 7/12/21
Tangentially related but my goodness Bruno Fernandes is good at penalties.

In his career, he's taken 44 penalties. He's missed 3. That's a 93% conversion when the average is something like 75% (I think).

I'm not going to pretend that I've seen them all. But I've seen a loooooot of the ones with United and there were a loooooot of stutter steps in those PKs.
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gougler08
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8:41a, 7/12/21
AG
Jorginho is also very good for his career with that jump thing he does, yet he missed yesterday too
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tysker
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8:42a, 7/12/21
AG
The stutter step approach takes you out of your normal striking rhythm. And its really hard for most players to get power behind the kick with only one full step so your placement must be perfect. So I guess it can be a plan but it has to be a very well practiced and rehearsed plan.
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Dre_00
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In reply to Rudyjax • 8:43a, 7/12/21
Agree with all of that. And those capable of hitting the corners consistently should absolutely do that. Harry Kane is a great example. That guy has the exact same run up every time. No stutter step (at least not that I've ever seen). And places it in the corner nearly every time. His conversion rate is 85%. He absolutely should keep doing what he's doing.

Marcus Rashford is nowhere near the finisher that Harry Kane is though. And those that aren't excellent finishers need another tool in their arsenal to increase their chances of success.
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PatAg
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8:46a, 7/12/21
AG


Would be amazing to be in that crowd celebrating.
Some day we will get to do that for the World Cup. (or an Aggie National Championship in football)
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oh no
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8:46a, 7/12/21
AG
The greatest players ever have missed Pens before. I've seen Leo Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo miss the whole frame on a PK. You can try to put too much pace on it and miss. You can try to get too fancy and miss. When you're facing the best keepers in the world, and the pressure is immense, and at this level there are scouting reports so you can't take the same shot every time and it becomes a head game, it can happen to the best of them. Look at Jorgino - his take against Spain in the semi-final was outstanding, yet his take against Pickford yesterday was saved. McGuire's take yesterday was outstanding. Because Southgate put them in at 120' just to take the PK, I'm willing to bet that Rashford and Sancho had proven in training to be better takers more consistently than the other players on the pitch at 120' - Grealish, Shaw, Walker, Henderson, Sterling, Phillips, etc. Of course, three young kids, two of them coming on ice cold, Southgate will be questioned for a long time about that.
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akm91
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In reply to oh no • 8:49a, 7/12/21
AG
Quote:
Of course, three young kids, two of them coming on ice cold, Southgate will be questioned for a long time about that.
Why didn't he get them in the match earlier is one Southgate will have to answer for.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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oh no
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8:52a, 7/12/21
AG
and your penalty takers are not about best at "finishing". It's a set piece. The ball isn't moving. A great finisher makes the runs, makes multiple touches when necessary, uses all surfaces on both feet and head on a moving ball- often at pace, to find the net. Jorgino is a defensive holding midfielder and he's the main pen taker for Chelsea. McGuire is a big tall center back. If they were the best "finishers" they'd be playing forward on the pitch. They are good at placing the ball in the net on a pen though. Every player on the pitch at this level can take a pen well and the coaches should know of the 11 left at the end of the match, who the best 5 are or which 5 you're most comfortable with assigning the task.
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jeffk
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In reply to Dre_00 • 9:13a, 7/12/21
AG
Oh, I know going in slow and reading the keeper is a plan, and many players are really good at it. There's definitely different approaches that can end in a positive result. When it comes down to it, it's a lot tougher than it looks from a spectator's perspective especially when you remember that there's a professional keeper who knows all about these strategies 12 yards away who's pretty good at stopping shots too.
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PatAg
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In reply to oh no • 9:14a, 7/12/21
AG
oh no said:
and your penalty takers are not about best at "finishing". It's a set piece. The ball isn't moving. A great finisher makes the runs, makes multiple touches when necessary, uses all surfaces on both feet and head on a moving ball- often at pace, to find the net. Jorgino is a defensive holding midfielder and he's the main pen taker for Chelsea. McGuire is a big tall center back. If they were the best "finishers" they'd be playing forward on the pitch. They are good at placing the ball in the net on a pen though. Every player on the pitch at this level can take a pen well and the coaches should know of the 11 left at the end of the match, who the best 5 are or which 5 you're most comfortable with assigning the task.
If anything, your best passers tend to be your best PK takers, imo.

Ultimately, it most likely comes down to who can handle the pressure the best combined with who has proven they can replicate their PKs from training in the game. (both probably related)

I just always disliked relying on the goalkeeper to either make a mistake or show his hand for my PK to go in.
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KCup17
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9:18a, 7/12/21
AG
I remember saying out loud before Rashford took his pen that "He doesn't miss." Then I stood corrected. And I understand why he was selected to take a pen but what I don't understand is why Saka and Sancho were selected. Sancho didn't even break a sweat and Saka never takes pens for Arsenal. Baffling stuff.
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jeffk
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:22a, 7/12/21
AG
So it's your fault then.
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Onceaggie2.0
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:27a, 7/12/21
KCup17 said:
I remember saying out loud before Rashford took his pen that "He doesn't miss." Then I stood corrected. And I understand why he was selected to take a pen but what I don't understand is why Saka and Sancho were selected. Sancho didn't even break a sweat and Saka never takes pens for Arsenal. Baffling stuff.
why do you think?
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oh no
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9:32a, 7/12/21
AG
Grealish is an attacking central midfielder. Skillful with the ball, both passing and shooting. Was a late sub so he was warm but not exhausted. I believe he takes pens for Aston Villa. ...but Southgate put two 120' young ice cold subs to make it 5 guys ahead of him in Southgate's mind.
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deadbq03
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In reply to akm91 • 9:35a, 7/12/21
AG
akm91 said:
Quote:
Of course, three young kids, two of them coming on ice cold, Southgate will be questioned for a long time about that.
Why didn't he get them in the match earlier is one Southgate will have to answer for.
No joke. Leaving subs on the bench in extra time is baffling. I could see keeping one sub available, but there's really no excuse to keep fresh legs on the bench, especially when your bench is as deep as England. By 110' for sure I'd have had both of them in there to make one last push.
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Dre_00
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:40a, 7/12/21
From Transfermarkt (where I got the other stats in this thread):

Rashford: 17 penalties attempted; 15 made
Sancho: 11 penalties attempted; 10 made
Saka: 3 penalties attempted; 2 made

Those are career stats but don't seem to include PKs taken in penalty shootouts (didn't see Pogba's PKs during the Europa Cup Final or the Euros).

For comparison:

Sterling: 5 penalties attempted; 2 made
Grealish: 1 penalty attempted; 1 made
Maguire: 0 penalties attempted; 0 made

I 100% agree that Saka was put in a nonsensical position but I have to say...I'm not sure there's a statistically obvious candidate to have replaced him. Not unless there was another Harry Maguire lurking on the team who had a fantastic PK in him that nobody knew about it. But even if there wasn't, pick the older guy rather than the 19 year old. Unless that 19 year old has been nailing penalties throughout his career, he should be nowhere near the 5th position of a shootout.
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oh no
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In reply to Dre_00 • 9:45a, 7/12/21
AG
Dre_00 said:
From Transfermarkt (where I got the other stats in this thread):

Rashford: 17 penalties attempted; 15 made
Sancho: 11 penalties attempted; 10 made
Saka: 3 penalties attempted; 2 made

Those are career stats but don't seem to include PKs taken in penalty shootouts (didn't see Pogba's PKs during the Europa Cup Final or the Euros).

For comparison:

Sterling: 5 penalties attempted; 2 made
Grealish: 1 penalty attempted; 1 made
Maguire: 0 penalties attempted; 0 made

I 100% agree that Saka was put in a nonsensical position but I have to say...I'm not sure there's a statistically obvious candidate to have replaced him. Not unless there was another Harry Maguire lurking on the team who had a fantastic PK in him that nobody knew about it. But even if there wasn't, pick the older guy rather than the 19 year old. Unless that 19 year old has been nailing penalties throughout his career, he should be nowhere near the 5th position of a shootout.
Interesting. I thought Grealish took pens for Aston Villa. How about Kyle Walker, Jordan Henderson, Luke Shaw, Kalvin Phillips (I think everyone knew Sterling and Stones and Pickford weren't in the top 5 choices).
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wangus12
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In reply to KCup17 • 9:48a, 7/12/21
AG
That's the thing for me with Saka. He's a great young talent, he takes set pieces for Arsenal. But he has never taken a professional senior level penalty in his life (the 3 listed above are all at the U18 level with Arsenal/England). Why on Earth would you let a 19 year old take his first senior level penalty as #5 when it must go in, playing in a final, in a 100% packed Wembley with 55 years of national frustration on your shoulders. Imo, that should have 100% been Kane's spot, but I understand having your best go first. You just can't put that on a teenage with less than 10 caps for his country
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akm91
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In reply to wangus12 • 10:04a, 7/12/21
AG
Totally agree. I really felt for Saka after his penalty was saved.
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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birdman
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10:09a, 7/12/21
Grealish took a pretty hard foul not long before the end of game. That might of had something to do with his exclusion.
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KCup17
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In reply to Onceaggie2.0 • 10:10a, 7/12/21
AG
I honestly don't know. I would have put Grealish and Sterling in both their spots.
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KCup17
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In reply to birdman • 10:12a, 7/12/21
AG
I saw a interview he did after the game saying that he had told Southgate he wanted to take a pen but Southgate decided otherwise.
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AG@RICE
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In reply to oh no • 10:14a, 7/12/21
AG
oh no said:
Dre_00 said:
From Transfermarkt (where I got the other stats in this thread):

Rashford: 17 penalties attempted; 15 made
Sancho: 11 penalties attempted; 10 made
Saka: 3 penalties attempted; 2 made

Those are career stats but don't seem to include PKs taken in penalty shootouts (didn't see Pogba's PKs during the Europa Cup Final or the Euros).

For comparison:

Sterling: 5 penalties attempted; 2 made
Grealish: 1 penalty attempted; 1 made
Maguire: 0 penalties attempted; 0 made

I 100% agree that Saka was put in a nonsensical position but I have to say...I'm not sure there's a statistically obvious candidate to have replaced him. Not unless there was another Harry Maguire lurking on the team who had a fantastic PK in him that nobody knew about it. But even if there wasn't, pick the older guy rather than the 19 year old. Unless that 19 year old has been nailing penalties throughout his career, he should be nowhere near the 5th position of a shootout.
Interesting. I thought Grealish took pens for Aston Villa. How about Kyle Walker, Jordan Henderson, Luke Shaw, Kalvin Phillips (I think everyone knew Sterling and Stones and Pickford weren't in the top 5 choices).


Hendo never takes penalties for Liverpool. It's either Milner or Mo.

In retrospect they probably should have taken Milly. He is basically automatic.
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JJxvi
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10:28a, 7/12/21
AG
Apparently from some of the TV footage has a shot of Southgate going around to each taker in order, #3) Rashford #4) Sancho #5) Saka #6) Pickford #7) Phillips, #8) Grealish

So amazingly, after those three, the next up was the goalkeeper.
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planoaggie123
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In reply to JJxvi • 10:30a, 7/12/21
AG
That is shocking....
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wangus12
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10:33a, 7/12/21
AG
Again, Southgate is a jackass and England's current success is in spite of him rather than because of him
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oh no
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In reply to JJxvi • 10:38a, 7/12/21
AG
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to oh no • 10:42a, 7/12/21
AG
oh no said:
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
GKs are sometimes really good at PKs. Keepers take PKs against each other in training. You don't have a field player out there doing it, so the other keepers take them. They may have more experience than field players, at least in training.
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akm91
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In reply to wangus12 • 10:42a, 7/12/21
AG
wangus12 said:
Again, Southgate is a jackass and England's current success is in spite of him rather than because of him
Southgate is the Deschamp of England
"And liberals, being liberals, will double down on failure." - dedgod
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oh no
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:48a, 7/12/21
AG
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
oh no said:
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
GKs are sometimes really good at PKs. Keepers take PKs against each other in training. You don't have a field player out there doing it, so the other keepers take them. They may have more experience than field players, at least in training.
Yep. and, there may be zero or very limited scouting reports on them. they have power and are likely to put pace on the ball on frame rather than finesse.
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birdman
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In reply to Rudyjax • 10:48a, 7/12/21
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
oh no said:
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
GKs are sometimes really good at PKs. Keepers take PKs against each other in training. You don't have a field player out there doing it, so the other keepers take them. They may have more experience than field players, at least in training.
Managers are typically reluctant to have goalies take penalty kicks because of mental aspect.

If goalie puts his shot into the bleachers, it could put him in a funk and negatively effect his goaltending.
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Rudyjax
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In reply to birdman • 10:55a, 7/12/21
AG
birdman said:
Kevin the 3-legged dog said:
oh no said:
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
GKs are sometimes really good at PKs. Keepers take PKs against each other in training. You don't have a field player out there doing it, so the other keepers take them. They may have more experience than field players, at least in training.
Managers are typically reluctant to have goalies take penalty kicks because of mental aspect.

If goalie puts his shot into the bleachers, it could put him in a funk and negatively effect his goaltending.
Very good point. That's typically why they go last when necessary.
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JJxvi
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11:00a, 7/12/21
AG
Here's the decisions for all of Southgates penalty shootouts with England

World Cup 2018 Round of 16
#1 Kane - Made
#2 Rashford - Made
#3 Henderson - Missed
#4 Trippier - Made
#5 Dier - Made

Did not kick- Pickford, Stones, Maguire, Lingard, Vardy, Rose (Taker Rashford subbed in at 113th minute)

Nations League 2019 3rd Place
#1 Maguire - Made
#2 Barkley - Made
#3 Sancho - Made
#4 Sterling - Made
#5 Pickford - Made
#6 Dier - Made

Did not kick - Alexander-Arnold, Gomez, Alli, Walker, Wilson (Takers Sancho and Barkley were subbed on in the 106th minute)

Euro 2020 Final
#1 Kane - Made
#2 Maguire - Made
#3 Rashford - Missed
#4 Sancho - Missed
#5 Saka - Missed

Did not kick - Pickford, Stones, Shaw, Phillips, Sterling, Grealish (Takers Sancho and Rashford subbed on in 120th minute)


The decisions dont seem that out of the ordinary in hindsight from Southgate's previous victories in the penalty shootout (although waiting until the 120th minute for takers to come in cold still seems like not a good idea). Sancho doesnt seem as weird knowing now that he actually did have experience (although granted in not nearly the same high pressure situation) of being called upon and converting before.
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ThunderCougarFalconBird
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In reply to oh no • 11:02a, 7/12/21
AG
oh no said:
Nothing stopping a GK from being a great PK taker. I've seen it before.
I recall Neuer being a good penalty taker for some reason.
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