*** SUCCESSION *** (Season 4)

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MBAR
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Head Ninja In Charge said:

Of course it doesn't check out. Why would she flip IRL? Because Kendall might suck at the job? What's the alternative? Voting away her share of a birthright so that Matsson (who just screwed her over more than her brothers or dad ever did) and Tom (the "let's get back together" phone call convo in the very last episode literally made me laugh) get it? What did she gain from that. Shiv sucks but she's not dumb. The whole thing made zero sense.

You know what, the more I think of it, the worse the episode gets. 4/10. Jesse Armstrong fumbled the bag here.


She flips because she can't stand losing to Kendall and in the end can't pull the trigger. The idea of him being bad at the job isn't it at all.

Whats more jarring with these kids is them actually working together, not them ****ing themselves at every possible moment. I honestly don't have clue how people can say the self destruction doesn't fit.
TCTTS
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MBAR
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So many amazing moments in this episode:

- Tom and Greg slap fight.
- Kids swimming and then in the kitchen
- Matteson and Tom
- Conference Room fight
- Shot in the car of Tom and Shiv
- THE VIDEO!
TCTTS
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So many of these were all-timers.
TCTTS
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TCTTS
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MBAR
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Also was that the statue of liberty in the glare of the sun in the final Kendal shot? If so there's **** to unpack there as well.
TCTTS
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TCTTS
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TCTTS
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FL_Ag1998
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TCTTS said:

Yeah, it's a delicate balance, and I agree that we definitely needed to be as surprised as Ken. That's a good point. It was more that one moment she was literally smiling and seemed totally gung-ho to vote no, then the next time we cut to her, like 30 seconds later, she was silently freaking out. I get *why* they did it that way, I just feel like there was still some kind of clever way not to make it feel so incredibly abrupt. I do admit I need to watch it again, though, and that it's one of those things that will likely play better on a second watch.


This is where I'm at now after sleeping on it. The ending works, but every big surprise in every movie/show needs some sort of "clue" that its coming. If not then the surprise feels too cheap, too much like it was thrown in there just to say "Ha ha, gotcha!" to the audience.
BMX Bandit
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Women never act irrationally IRL.
An Ag in CO
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Season 1/2 - Shiv and Tom have a plan where Shiv will use her family influence to help Tom get ahead and advance in the executive ranks at Waystar Royco. I remember his sense of betrayal when Shiv told him that she was going to run the company at Logan's request.

Season 4 - Shiv is finally able to do just that and have Tom installed as the CEO of the newly created post-acquisition company. Tom was in the company the whole time working while the 3 siblings were scheming and demonstrating their incompetence - monarchists trying to succeed in a republican world.

Prosperdick
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

They're more alike than you're giving credit for.

They both wanted the crown, and gave absolutely zero ****s about what they had to do to get it. They considered it their birthright their entire life. Ken even lied to his siblings' faces about the waiter who died just so he could get his toy.

Granted, one character was excellently written and the other was completely botched.
Actually Dany didn't consider it her birthright, it was her older brother who did, and then sold her off to the Dothraki Aquaman and that's when she started to believe it was her birthright.

Speaking of Khal Drogo, another similarity we had was Roman pouring that nasty pitcher over Kendall's head giving him his "crown" while Khal does the same to Dany's brother. It ended poorly for both of them.
Quinn
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Regarding Shiv flipping, the look on her face when Kendall was sitting in Logan's chair right before the meeting betrayed her disgust. I thought that was clear that she wasn't happy and didn't like him in that role. Whether that's because she thinks he would be bad at the job or she hates him because it's not her, I don't know, that's up to all of us to decide what we think.
DannyDuberstein
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Yeah, when you boil it down, she just couldn't stomach seeing him in the seat after having it ripped from her. And after the initial shock and anger of hearing it was Tom, I'm sure some measure of semi-rational "well, at least 'we' would have it" starts to kick in.

And no question Mattson latched on to her description about Tom and tested it out to make sure he'd fully be his puppet. Shiv thinking she was smart and sly in her own way and having it backfire was a theme the entire series. Not a serious person [/logan]
StringerBell
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loved the ending.

do wish they'd spent more time on shiv's flip but at the end of the day logan created so many divides through competition between the siblings that there was no possible way that shiv could see kendall in the spot. dont know if that's about her not getting it or what but she just couldn't see him. it couldn't be him.

came down to tom or kendall and she went with tom. not sure which one is better for her.

but it couldn't be kendall.

awesome series. awesome finale.
JYDog90
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DannyDuberstein said:

Yeah, when you boil it down, she just couldn't stomach seeing him in the seat after having it ripped from her. And after the initial shock and anger of hearing it was Tom, I'm sure some measure of semi-rational "well, at least 'we' would have it" starts to kick in.

And no question Mattson latched on to her description about Tom and tested it out to make sure he'd fully be his puppet. Shiv thinking she was smart and sly in her own way and having it backfire was a theme the entire series. Not a serious person [/logan]


Yeah, there's a Wolverine principle. Supposedly wolverines will eat all they can and then they whiz and crap all over it so that no one else will want to eat it. Shiv realized that she couldn't have it so she wanted to make sure no one else in the family would get it. She was even willing to let Tom have it, just not her family.
cbr
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I think if shiv voted early and was not the swing vote, she might have stuck with a no. Thats why the surprise works.


It was a good series after all. Very subtle and great in many ways. Hard to pull off in a series without a single likeable or decent human in the entire show.

It was clear through the entire show that none of those ****bags was capable. The only required attribute they all had was ruthless greed and self centeredness. Obviously logan knew it and ultimately he set them free to just be rich little ****s. The surprise is that madsen wasnt really capable either. He was just a one hit wonder lucky dude, and tom is just a complete puppet, so the business is gone. Not only was there no succession of family, really no succession at all.
BudFox7
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TCTTS said:




Great show but it's not in this discussion no matter how bad you want it.

Finale was…OK. Kitchen scene showed they're still just kids and foretold that they would **** it up as kids so (as did the entire series). Shiv made the most sense to flip, preggo and husband as CEO. The flip was executed pretty badly though
bonfarr
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I still don't get it, Shiv gives up the chance to keep the company under family control and Tom gets elevated to CEO but he serves at the whim of Mattsen. He could be out in a year or two.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
Seven Costanza
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One positive of this show ending is that I no longer have to see Shiv make that face she does 150 times an episode.
Max Power
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TCTTS said:

Overall, I loved it.

Some absolutely incredible moments throughout - many of them surprisingly endearing, if not utterly brutal and heartbreaking - and I think the pieces fell exactly where they should in the end.

My only two quibbles would be...

- I agree that Shiv turned too abruptly in the vote. It was a great fake out, in that I totally expected Roman to be the one to backtrack. But while Shiv definitely *should* have turned, and it was the right decision (both on her part and that of the filmmakers), it felt like we missed seeing the thing that *made* her turn. Unless I missed something myself, it felt like one minute she was totally cool with the decision - the siblings were united and on a mission - then all the sudden, as if it happened off screen, it cut to Shiv and she had cold feet, almost out of no where. Again, cold feet/her decision = good, I just needed more of a bridge to that moment, I guess?

- I also wish we had, like, say, three more minutes in the end. Just something to wrap up Kendall's story a bit more. But even as I type this, I'm realizing that part of the point was that we're *supposed* to feel as lost/aimless as Kendall in that moment, so maybe anything more would have ruined that. I do love the metaphor of him being cut off from the water with the railing, and that his father's bodyguard now "haunts" him. Otherwise, Shiv and Tom's final moment was pitch perfect, and Roman's half smirk to himself at the bar tells me he's finally "free" now/that he'll probably be okay (or as "okay" as someone like him can possibly be).

As mentioned earlier in the thread tonight, and as I've heard speculated on a couple podcast recently, this show really does feel ripe for a movie in three or four years, and it doesn't at all seem out of the realm of possibility. As sad as I am that it's finally over, my gut says we're not quite done with these characters just yet (or at least that's what I'm telling myself as a coping mechanism).
Totally agree with those criticisms.

To me that finale was an 8/10, with the 2 detractors being these points. I don't have a problem with the Shiv switch in the meeting but the fact that when she figured out Tom was the pick being the thing that made her want to kill the deal more than anything else. Tom winning to her in that moment was more painful than Kendall or Roman winning. She talked herself into her own consolation prize. The siblings confrontation in the side room where emotions are just flowing freely shows she wasn't calculated, she's emotional, she's at both ends of the spectrum at once. Ultimately beating Ken and Roman was more important to her. Had she stuck with Ken and Roman she actually had a chance at being part of what the company is but she went the other direction instead. It's Mattson's company, she will have no input, that was clear but she "won" only in the sense that Ken and Roman lost. Though maybe it's just Ken that lost, pretty clear that Roman didn't really want the job.

I also wanted just a little something more with Kendall at the end. I felt like his character was given a disservice by not getting some closure. With a 90 minute episode they had the chance to tie up all the storylines but chose not to. I didn't need anything else for Shiv or Roman, I'm satisfied with their conclusions.

The highlight of the episode to me was when Kendall, Shiv, and Roman got to see the video of Logan with Connor, Carrie, Frank, Karl, and Jeri. It was sweet and painful at the same time, the guy they saw in that video wasn't the man they knew. There were people they knew and were close to that saw a side of their father they never did, an absolutely crushing scene.

I'm going to miss this show, but I'm thankful that we got 4 awesome seasons of it. Succession is officially an all-timer for me.
Four Seasons Landscaping
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Tom is family too.

The call from the plane felt a bit forced, but in hindsight, it was there to lay the ground for her wanting to continue the marriage, thus making the flip make more sense.
bonfarr
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Four Seasons Landscaping said:

Tom is family too.

The call from the plane felt a bit forced, but in hindsight, it was there to lay the ground for her wanting to continue the marriage, thus making the flip make more sense.


She is married to Tom, I guess you can call it marriage, but he is just the CEO and does not have a large ownership in the new company and the new BOd would be international. He would not have much influence on board votes.

Mattsen could fire Tom the moment the stock price dips and then what?
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
cbr
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Head Ninja In Charge said:

Of course it doesn't check out. Why would she flip IRL? Because Kendall might suck at the job? What's the alternative? Voting away her share of a birthright so that Matsson (who just screwed her over more than her brothers or dad ever did) and Tom (the "let's get back together" phone call convo in the very last episode literally made me laugh) get it? What did she gain from that. Shiv sucks but she's not dumb. The whole thing made zero sense.

You know what, the more I think of it, the worse the episode gets. 4/10. Jesse Armstrong fumbled the bag here.


Again, imo, if shiv voted early she probably says no. As the final swing vote she just couldnt do it. And btw they lucked out. They have hundreds of millions, and the clownshow leadership under a no vote would have tanked their 'birthright'. This is a perfectly rational reason, in addition to the emotional flip. Plus she figured she could have some control with tom but not ken. The more i think of it, the better it gets. And roman's final scene was awesome.
cbr
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bonfarr said:

Four Seasons Landscaping said:

Tom is family too.

The call from the plane felt a bit forced, but in hindsight, it was there to lay the ground for her wanting to continue the marriage, thus making the flip make more sense.


She is married to Tom, I guess you can call it marriage, but he is just the CEO and does not have a large ownership in the new company and the new BOd would be international. He would not have much influence on board votes.

Mattsen could fire Tom the moment the stock price dips and then what?
One major point of the show was that there was only one man capable of holding everything together. The company was a force of personality, when he died it was going into the corporate mixer no matter what.
Four Seasons Landscaping
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I mean, yeah, you're right.

I don't think it was an airtight plot but I also think that's the only reason that plane scene makes the cut, to give the ending a tad bit of validity.
StringerBell
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more i think about it the more it makes more sense. shiv was probably wobbling a bit but had convinced herself of some sort of agreement but then kendall patting himself on the back for how good of a deal he and roman had put together probably wasnt the straw but it was another straw making her realize that there could never be a scenario where the three of them had control and everything end up copacetic.
bonfarr
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So does Kendall go through another relapse/recovery before getting his **** together and Roman go off on a debaucherous Caligula like episode before straightening it out and then they team up and use their GoJo money to acquire PGM? Or is that out now that they don't have ATN.

When great shows end I like to imagine the future for the main characters. In my mind the brothers go through their own kind of self destruction before putting the pieces together and buying Pierce. GoJo eventually implodes in a huge Accounting scandal when their inflated numbers are revealed and the stock price plummets. With some well timed inside info from Greg the Roy's pounce and are able to re-acquire ATN and they go on to rebuild the Roy Multi-Media Empire.
Disclaimer: Views expressed in this post reflect the opinions of Texags user bonfarr and are not to be accepted as facts or to be accepted at face value.
Joan Wilder
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I agree - it was a reminder of how they'd worked to cut her out all season. She was uneasy seeing Kendall in Logan's chair. I don't know that her mind was completely made up when she left the room to collect her thoughts, but Kendall's behavior and violence in the room with her and Roman sealed it.

Fascinating how just the sight of Gerri unraveled Roman.

All of these a-holes just made billions. No one "lost."
ChoppinDs40
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Yes except 50% of the purchase price was in stock of gojo. So if it flops, it flops for all of them (assuming they couldn't unload that stock by the time the demise mentioned occurs).
Old Buffalo
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So what's the movie?

Connor Roy 2028????
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
Tobias Funke
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I chuckled at reading that Ken is now being haunted by Colin, but the more I think about it, thats spot on. The chilling part of Kendall's finale is that now he is being constantly trailed by a man who despises him and is a constant reminder of how he's failed and what/who he's lost. He doesn't need a bodyguard, but he can't fire him or the guy will go public that he's a murderer. And the guy won't just leave on his own accord because he's a robot who doesn't know what else to do. So you're options are basically get used to it, kill him, or kill yourself. Yay!
jh0400
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The Shiv turn didn't bother me that much, because by virtue of having the swing vote she became the biggest dick in the room. Having that to hold over Tom was the only win she was going to get.

ETA: the kids collectively should own 15-20% of the new company. 5-7% from deal proceeds plus Tom's inducement grant and board seat give them a lot of power.
 
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