I KNEW I didn't make that up.

We can't rule it out in the same way you can't definitively rule out anything on this show, but I think it's extremely extremely unlikely.

The elephant story though is what took me to basically 95% convinced that William is a host/clone. He was acting extremely bizarre that entire scene, and the way he kind of a did a head turn thing when she was telling him that detail was wrong...

One thing that maybe shouldn't bother me, but does, is why they even had to go to Shogun World. Were they lost? That's what I thought at first, but then Sizemore takes credit for getting them there?

jabberwalkie09 said:

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bobinator said:

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One thing that maybe shouldn't bother me, but does, is why they even had to go to Shogun World. Were they lost? That's what I thought at first, but then Sizemore takes credit for getting them there?

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I got the impression that Sizemore ****ed up and they ended up in Shogun world by his error. He righted the ship when he got them back to the prairie.

At least that was my take away.

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That, or i wonder if he thought the other parks may still be normal and taking them there could help? He was surprised that park was going haywire when they got there. He may have thought it was a westworld only problem the host could kill.

The Lost said:

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jabberwalkie09 said:

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bobinator said:

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One thing that maybe shouldn't bother me, but does, is why they even had to go to Shogun World. Were they lost? That's what I thought at first, but then Sizemore takes credit for getting them there?

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I got the impression that Sizemore ****ed up and they ended up in Shogun world by his error. He righted the ship when he got them back to the prairie.

At least that was my take away.

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That, or i wonder if he thought the other parks may still be normal and taking them there could help? He was surprised that park was going haywire when they got there. He may have thought it was a westworld only problem the host could kill.

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He's the guy that panicked when he found the initial severed head in the snow. That makes me think it wasn't on purpose.

Well, that's what I had assumed, but then taking credit for finding something when you're the one that got them lost to begin with seems like a weird thing to do.

bobinator said:

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Well, that's what I had assumed, but then taking credit for finding something when you're the one that got them lost to begin with seems like a weird thing to do.

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As someone else said, I think he was taking credit for - eventually - getting Maeve to the prairie so she could get back to her daughter.

So I was willing to write this off a mistake, but it kept bugging me and it's something the recappables are talking about...

I watched with the subtitles on on Sunday night, and the subtitles kept referring to Elsie as "Hale" several times. We taking that as a mistake, or is there something there?

Yeah... galaxy brain has been trying to kick in this week and is basically on "is anything real" so I'm trying to stay focused.

Other things beside the Hale bit that bother me about Elsie:

- She doesn't appear AT ALL bothered/disheveled by having to spend five days in a cave living off protein bars with only a bucket. She looks basically good as new.
- That comment from Bernard that if anyone could fix things through "sheer force of will" or whatever the exact wording was
- The scene all the way back in season one where she kissed Clementine, wtf was up with that?

I definitely noticed. In fact I rewinded to make sure. Very odd...

speculation but.....

I would bet it's not a mistake per se - it may be Hale and Bernard sees her as Elsie.

so the script may have called her Hale and the CC editors use the script.

probably the mistake was in not telling the CC editors to not use "Hale".

That thought came to mind. But I think everyone was thinking only the post 2 weeks timeline was the "fake/simulated" timeline, and not the current timeline.

Maybe Hale re-programmed him somehow to make him see Elsie, but to what end?

Welp, unsurprisingly, here's the Reddit theory for this.

https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/8mu6kc/spoilers_haleelsie_theory_regarding_bernard_this/

This could mean Bernard is actually "two levels deep" in the cradle? (If that's even possible.)

Have to say, if the theory is right, that's a hell of a dropped ball by HBO. Huge, likely unintentional clue.

The weird thing about it is, if I recall correctly, nobody else in the captions is ever referred to by name.

I brought up the "dream within a dream" thing last week as being something I didn't particularly care for, but now I think it's possible...

The question though is when did it happen. Clementine drags Bernard to Elsie after she knocks him out at the end of the battle at Forlorn Hope. So we at least "know" (in as much as we know anything) that he was there.

If everything with Elsie is a simulation, then when did it start?

Just watched the episode last night - it's very easy to fall into all kinds of theories and that must be intentional on the part of the show creators. Just enough nuggets and clues to theorize a number of possibilities but some of those nuggets must be intentional distractions.

May have been this way for a while but I now see HOpkins Wikipedia shows him as being in 13 episodes of Westworld - so 3 episodes in season 2? Is the second host/human hybrid, after James Delos, now confirmed to be Ford? Are we sure there are just 2? Does Ford count as the same thing as DElos or if living in the cradle is he something different altogether?

Could the Bernard that woke up on the beach be an Arnold reincarnation, same as host Delos? Either he's in the cradle, very convincing video earlier in the thread explained that, or he's Arnold reincarnated and going through "fidelity" tests? Not sure what the DElores test of Bernard signified?

Weird Hale/Elsie theory, I'd assume that was just a closed captioning mistake but this show makes us all too creative with the theories. There was the theory that the Delos security crew placed Bernard into the cradle to run him through simulation and Elsie just.....placed him in the cradle. But, he asked for it - could they have predicted that?

Saw something this morning that said if we are viewing a scene in the Cradle then show's aspect ratio changes, anyone else see that?

Ghost Nation continues to be an enigma - shows up repeatedly but don't see a pattern as to when. Seems weird to show up just as Maeve is reconnecting with daughter. Not how I thought that scene would continue to play out.

Ford said he came to want the hosts to be free, as Arnold did, not sure how he thinks he will achieve that. Also not sure what his big obsession with William is about. I had thought maybe William was the second human reincarnated in a host body, and Ford was testing his fidelity through the "game", but not sure why or to what end. I should go rewatch that scene where Ford and William meet in the bar.

Wasn't sure what to take of scene between William and his daughter - seemed like genuine emotions but also a couple double take type looks from William. Elephant story seemed to trigger something in him? Her whole goal was to get him out of there - who else would want that? Is it really just his daughter wanting to bring him home alive? I think it's really just his daughter due to the Raj scenes, but others think maybe she's a host to trick him.

CAn someone tell me what Delores has planned for the MEsa? Remind me what her mission is with Teddy, or has it not clearly been stated?

Elsie kiss of Clementine was probably be nothing - but was also a DNA exchange.

Complete Idiot said:

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CAn someone tell me what Delores has planned for the MEsa? Remind me what her mission is with Teddy, or has it not clearly been stated?

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This is the big question of the season. We don't know exactly what it is Dolores is trying to do.

Quote:

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Saw something this morning that said if we are viewing a scene in the Cradle then show's aspect ratio changes, anyone else see that?

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Yes, that really happens. The scene at the end is shot cinema-wide, and so is the scene at the beginning with Dolores and Bernard/Arnold. The rest is normal.

Dream within a dream? So we are going full on Inception or the Matrix?

Quote:

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Yes, that really happens. The scene at the end is shot cinema-wide, and so is the scene at the beginning with Dolores and Bernard/Arnold. The rest is normal.

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I caught it in the Cradle scene but not in the first scene. Good catch.

I'm not sure if that's happening, but it's hard to piece together the timelines.

We could just take everything happening with Elsie at face value, but it just seems weird.

For the sake of honesty I didn't catch it the first time. We watched it on my ipad at my parents house this weekend so when we got home yesterday we did a rewatch on our living room TV and since I'd already seen it I was looking for weird things.

Dang, I missed the subtitle situation. Will definitely have to rewatch this evening with all this things in mind. Aside from that, awesome episode.

One thing I thought about regarding Ford in the Cradle, fighting back against the programming... Could he be controlling the Ghost Nation to save specific people/hosts? Previously, it appeared as they were only targeting humans. Especially the scene where they asked Maeve and Hector for Sizemore. But then this episode, they offered help to Maeve. Why didn't they offer her help in the previous encounter? They continue to be one of my biggest intrigues.

I don't have any good theories as to what the ghost nation is up to. That's obviously going to be a pretty big reveal at some point I think.

You laugh, but "What if Dolores is Ford..." is a mental rabbit hole I went down one time..

I've enjoyed this series immensely, but this season is the first time they seem to write-in story lines just to produce an episode. I realize this is something that must be done but I don't think they're doing a good job of blending it in.

What do you mean?

"By most mechanical and dirty hand, I shall have such revenges on you both. The things I will do, what they are, yet I know not, but they will be terrors of the earth." - Abernathy

Did we ever learn more about that host who had some satellite tracker on it and then it terminated itself? The one Elsie and Stubbs were after season 1?

Lots of random stuff I've forgotten from season 1