*****Spurs 2017 Offseason Thread*****

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Pumpkinhead
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4:39p, 7/14/17
AG
Despite him not sticking with the Spurs, hats off to Simmons. Making it through the below to now signing a $20 million contract was a pretty impressive story.

Quote:
First, he played for three different colleges. Then, he spent a year in the semi-pro American Basketball League after no teams selected him in the 2012 draft. Following his stint in the ABL, he paid $150 for a D-League tryout in 2013 that eventually led to him playing in his first NBA game for the Spurs as a 26-year-old on Nov. 14, 2015. The man knows how to persevere.
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Ag Natural
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 4:45p, 7/14/17
AG
Well we know that 9 million figure didn't come from the Spurs. That was most likely a number leaked out by Simmons agent. He was trying to stir up interest.

Now we see what he actually signed for and its apparent the Spurs offered less. They wanted to sign him but his actual production doesn't warrant a big contract. You stay competitive for 20+ years by making smart decisions. What Simmons should have realized is that the Spurs take care of their own for life.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Ag Natural • 4:52p, 7/14/17
AG

Quote:
What Simmons should have realized is that the Spurs take care of their own for life.
Patty, a guy who cannot be effective if he plays more than 20mpg, just signed a contract for $50mm.

Manu, a guy who we knew would not be able to play 1500 minutes (he played under 1300), was paid $14mm last year.

Avery Johnson got $8mm for his last season with the Spurs. At that point, he had made a total of about $13mm for his entire career.

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DTP02
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In reply to Ag Natural • 6:11p, 7/14/17
AG
Ag Natural said:
Well we know that 9 million figure didn't come from the Spurs. That was most likely a number leaked out by Simmons agent. He was trying to stir up interest.

Now we see what he actually signed for and its apparent the Spurs offered less. They wanted to sign him but his actual production doesn't warrant a big contract. You stay competitive for 20+ years by making smart decisions. What Simmons should have realized is that the Spurs take care of their own for life.
But is $6.7m/yr for 3 years really a "big contract" in this day and age? It's not really something that keeps you from going after a big dog next offseason, it's not an anchor around your neck if he busts, and it's moveable.

If Paul can approximate what Simmons' brought to the table and at a lower cost, then hats off to the Spurs yet again. But I don't think less than $7m/yr is really overpaying in this market.
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superunknown
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In reply to DTP02 • 6:18p, 7/14/17
AG
DTP02 said:
Ag Natural said:
Well we know that 9 million figure didn't come from the Spurs. That was most likely a number leaked out by Simmons agent. He was trying to stir up interest.

Now we see what he actually signed for and its apparent the Spurs offered less. They wanted to sign him but his actual production doesn't warrant a big contract. You stay competitive for 20+ years by making smart decisions. What Simmons should have realized is that the Spurs take care of their own for life.
But is $6.7m/yr for 3 years really a "big contract" in this day and age? It's not really something that keeps you from going after a big dog next offseason, it's not an anchor around your neck if he busts, and it's moveable.

If Paul can approximate what Simmons' brought to the table and at a lower cost, then hats off to the Spurs yet again. But I don't think less than $7m/yr is really overpaying in this market.


7m a year for a fringe rotation guy? FOH.

Wanna tell LeBron (fill in the blank FA of choice) "Hey we know the max salary starts at $30m. Here's $23m. Because we get stupidly attached to fringe role players. Soooooooo wanna sign now or later?"

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aggie_fan13
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6:25p, 7/14/17
AG
alot of people ****ting on simmons for leaving to chase the money, guy is in his late 20's, has four kids, will most likely never get a pay day like this again and two years ago had to pay $150 for a try out. I get that rings seem more important, but to a guy like simmons i cant blame him for wanting to cash in
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Ulrich
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6:28p, 7/14/17
Can't discuss Simmons contract without considering the player he will be. 7mm for what the Spurs got in the regular season last year is overpaying, but 7mm for the defense and scoring he showed against Houston is a steal. Will his third season in the league be the one where he breaks out, or will he revert back to the inefficient athlete who fouls too much? Only time will tell, but he has showed enough that I don't think 7mm warrants a "FOH".
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flashplayer
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6:41p, 7/14/17
AG
I'm guessing the Spurs figured he'd end up somewhere in the middle of the two guys we saw last year, closer to the one that was inconsistent for 82 games. I still think what he got was reasonable considering his room to grow and improve on bothe ends of the court. I guess time will tell.
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tbirdspur2010
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In reply to aggie_fan13 • 6:42p, 7/14/17
AG
azulAg said:
alot of people ****ting on simmons for leaving to chase the money, guy is in his late 20's, has four kids, will most likely never get a pay day like this again and two years ago had to pay $150 for a try out. I get that rings seem more important, but to a guy like simmons i cant blame him for wanting to cash in


This. I hate to see him leave, but not upset with him in the least. He is an inspiring success story and I wish him all the best.
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aggie_fan13
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In reply to tbirdspur2010 • 6:44p, 7/14/17
AG
agreed, he's a great success story. Im sad hes gone but glad hes getting his, i hope he does well in orlando
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Ag Natural
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7:01p, 7/14/17
AG
I don't fault him for chasing money. We don't know what the Spurs offered. We DO know the Spurs wanted to keep him and they don't really have a rep for lowballing guys. 3 for 20 is not huge but it is probably on the high side of what he's proven to be worth to the Spurs.

My guess is something went sour here. And I personally do think Simmons made a long term mistake not resigning with the Spurs. He's got $20 million to ease the pain though. I hope he enjoys Orlando.
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Cappo
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In reply to aggie_fan13 • 7:14p, 7/14/17
AG
azulAg said:
alot of people ****ting on simmons for leaving to chase the money, guy is in his late 20's, has four kids, will most likely never get a pay day like this again and two years ago had to pay $150 for a try out. I get that rings seem more important, but to a guy like simmons i cant blame him for wanting to cash in
Good post.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Ag Natural • 7:31p, 7/14/17
AG
Ag Natural said:
I don't fault him for chasing money. We don't know what the Spurs offered. We DO know the Spurs wanted to keep him and they don't really have a rep for lowballing guys. 3 for 20 is not huge but it is probably on the high side of what he's proven to be worth to the Spurs.

My guess is something went sour here. And I personally do think Simmons made a long term mistake not resigning with the Spurs. He's got $20 million to ease the pain though. I hope he enjoys Orlando.
This. Glad he worked hard and earned himself money. Hope he watched 30 for 30 Broke and is able to hold on to the money.
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superunknown
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In reply to Ulrich • 7:50p, 7/14/17
AG
Yeah my FOH was a little harsh, my bad.

Would love to see a cross section of people who think Simmons at 7m is a good deal but Green at 10m is overpaid, though
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jsc8116
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8:13p, 7/14/17
AG
Simmons showed flashes, but that all he showed, very athletic, but not a good ball handler/turnover prone, not a great shooter, at his age, I dont think he is going to improve anymore than what Spurs saw out of him the last 2 years.
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tbirdspur2010
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 8:35p, 7/14/17
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Ag Natural said:
I don't fault him for chasing money. We don't know what the Spurs offered. We DO know the Spurs wanted to keep him and they don't really have a rep for lowballing guys. 3 for 20 is not huge but it is probably on the high side of what he's proven to be worth to the Spurs.

My guess is something went sour here. And I personally do think Simmons made a long term mistake not resigning with the Spurs. He's got $20 million to ease the pain though. I hope he enjoys Orlando.
This. Glad he worked hard and earned himself money. Hope he watched 30 for 30 Broke and is able to hold on to the money.


Somehow I feel that as hard as he's worked to get where he is and as much as he has riding on him being able to provide, he'll be fine.
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Obi Wan Ginobili
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In reply to aggie_fan13 • 9:28p, 7/14/17
azulAg said:
alot of people ****ting on simmons for leaving to chase the money, guy is in his late 20's, has four kids, will most likely never get a pay day like this again and two years ago had to pay $150 for a try out. I get that rings seem more important, but to a guy like simmons i cant blame him for wanting to cash in


Holy ***** That was a good post. Welcome back azul!
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DTP02
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In reply to superunknown • 10:30p, 7/14/17
AG
superunknown said:
DTP02 said:
Ag Natural said:
Well we know that 9 million figure didn't come from the Spurs. That was most likely a number leaked out by Simmons agent. He was trying to stir up interest.

Now we see what he actually signed for and its apparent the Spurs offered less. They wanted to sign him but his actual production doesn't warrant a big contract. You stay competitive for 20+ years by making smart decisions. What Simmons should have realized is that the Spurs take care of their own for life.
But is $6.7m/yr for 3 years really a "big contract" in this day and age? It's not really something that keeps you from going after a big dog next offseason, it's not an anchor around your neck if he busts, and it's moveable.

If Paul can approximate what Simmons' brought to the table and at a lower cost, then hats off to the Spurs yet again. But I don't think less than $7m/yr is really overpaying in this market.


7m a year for a fringe rotation guy? FOH.

Wanna tell LeBron (fill in the blank FA of choice) "Hey we know the max salary starts at $30m. Here's $23m. Because we get stupidly attached to fringe role players. Soooooooo wanna sign now or later?"



Can you maybe leave the spurtalk style "discussion" on sites the unwashed masses of typical NBA fans frequent? This thread is already going that route the last few pages.

We're at something like a $100m cap with a $115m lux tax limit. $6.7m for a rotation player isn't anywhere near "FOH" money. Maybe you haven't kept up with the signings this offseason. We've got pedestrian players making twice that.

Simmons averaged, what, 18-20 min for us? That's not "fringe rotation" PT. And he looks to be emerging, if anything, based on the way he ended the season.

He's not irreplaceable by any stretch, but he did bring a lot of value to the table, including some things the Spurs will be in short supply of without him (unless they are able to get that from a new pickup like Paul). And $6.7m just ain't a lot of $ in this market.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to DTP02 • 10:48p, 7/14/17
AG
Assuming Gay/Green/LMA all opt out next year (I'd say very likely) the Spurs will only have about 35mm under contract (Kawhi, White, Murray, Patty.)

That is enough to bring in a max and maybe two good players or a max and an almost max. And if you have that type of space, maybe you have guys that will take a little under the max to make it work to challenge GSW.

There are only going to be ~4-5 teams with max space and only one of them will have a MVP candidate (possibly reigning MVP and the GOAT coach on their team.

Six million here and six million there and you lose your ability to pay two or three great players to come here.
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superunknown
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In reply to DTP02 • 11:05p, 7/14/17
AG
Dude, no.

If you think paying 6.7m for 6 points in 18 minutes a game is a good idea...well...man, I'm sorry the Knicks hired a GM already. You would have done great there.

The Spurs don't spend money just because they can squeeze it in under the tax line. For every golden watch contract they've given (Manu last year, Avery like Gsoup pointed out up-thread) there's been a Splitter or a Diaw or a Bowen shoved out the door to make room at another time when cap/tax considerations to add a potential crucial piece came into play. I admitted my FOH was harsh earlier but there's nothing you can say that convinces me the Spurs should have offered Simmons the contract he got elsewhere.

The Spurs have the potential to add a max guy next year (maybe 2!) precisely because they don't give away 7m contracts to 6ppg guys. I'm good with that.
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Enzo The Baker
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11:25p, 7/14/17
AG
Horry went on to RJ's podcast and blamed Pop for .4.

He also went back on what he said about Duncan and said he meant Dream was 20x better in the post, not in general.

It's an interesting listen. RJ also gives his excuses for why he sucked as a Spur.
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Guitarsoup
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11:34p, 7/14/17
AG
I'd be all about giving Simmons a 1y9mm. Prove himself over 80 games instead of 8 games and he gets a huge K. Go back to being a 6/2 player that can't shoot, and he goes back to being a 3-4mm player.

I don't blame him at all for taking the money. But I think he had the opportunity to get a bigger payday if he played it another way - especially if he thought he was actually the player in those few playoff games, not the guy we saw all season that shot 45/31. Bird in hand.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Enzo The Baker • 11:39p, 7/14/17
AG
What is RJ's excuse?

How was Pop at fault for .4? Bowen held Kobe to 21 points on 27 shots. Duncan destroyed the Lakers on the glass.

The big thing was that Malone got away with murder on Parker all game. Just threw him like a rag doll. No fouls called. And Tony shrunk away from driving the lane and settled for mid range shots that weren't falling.
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Enzo The Baker
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11:57p, 7/14/17
AG
https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/road-trippin-with-rj-channing/id1195897108?mt=2&i=1000389846728

He explains it at the 24 minute mark.

Horry said Pop didn't like Kobe and didn't want him to hit the game winner. So when Kobe came off of a screen he wanted Horry to guard him. Horry said that the Lakers were gonna get the ball to someone moving away from the basket. Horry reluctantly did as Pop said and looked at him like 'I told you so' after. All of this could very well be made up. It's Robert Horry.

As for RJ, he was going through a breakup/divorce and had trouble with financial stuff. So he says that's why he wasn't 100% for the Spurs.
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Enzo The Baker
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11:59p, 7/14/17
AG
He also calls RC just a figurehead for the front office. Haha
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NickNaylor
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In reply to Enzo The Baker • 12:13a, 7/15/17

Quote:
As for RJ, he was going through a breakup/divorce
Gay marriage wasn't even legal then. Nice try.
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Ag Natural
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12:37a, 7/15/17
AG
So what was RJs excuse after the Spurs? He was a 20 pt a game scorer when he had Kidd setting him up. Without Kidd he's basically Danny Green. Nice role player but not the difference maker the Spurs thought they'd be getting.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Ag Natural • 12:48a, 7/15/17
AG
All Kidd.

In 2008, Jefferson's best year (also had Kidd, Devin Harris and Vince Carter - all great passers):
Drew 280+ shooting fouls
Dunked it 90 times (actually down from 121 a year or two before)
45% of his shots were inside 10 feet


In 2012:
only 12% of his shots were inside 10 feet
He dunked 9 times all year.
He drew 0 shooting fouls in 1700 minutes played

He lost the balls to drive and get into the paint.

Now he's just a spot shooter.
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Enzo The Baker
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 1:42a, 7/15/17
AG
Quote:
He drew 0 shooting fouls in 1700 minutes played


How is that even possible?
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to superunknown • 7:30a, 7/15/17
AG
superunknown said:
Dude, no.

If you think paying 6.7m for 6 points in 18 minutes a game is a good idea...well...man, I'm sorry the Knicks hired a GM already. You would have done great there.


Warriors just gave Shawn Livingston a 3-year $24 million contract. He averaged 5.1 points per game and 17.7 minutes per game last season. And he will be 32 years old this December. I don't think you can just look at stats and minutes in a vacuum and determine whether some GM made the right call. But Spurs apparently didn't think he was worth what Orlando was willing to pay and he walked. Simmons' young family is living in tax free Disneyworld with $20 million so they will probably be fine. Whether Spurs fans in May 2018 are bringing up memories of Simmons, we'll see.
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flashplayer
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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:12a, 7/15/17
AG
Pumpkinhead said:
superunknown said:
Dude, no.

If you think paying 6.7m for 6 points in 18 minutes a game is a good idea...well...man, I'm sorry the Knicks hired a GM already. You would have done great there.


Warriors just gave Shawn Livingston a 3-year $24 million contract. He averaged 5.1 points per game and 17.7 minutes per game last season. And he will be 32 years old this December. I don't think you can just look at stats and minutes in a vacuum and determine whether some GM made the right call. But Spurs apparently didn't think he was worth what Orlando was willing to pay and he walked. Simmons' young family is living in tax free Disneyworld with $20 million so they will probably be fine. Whether Spurs fans in May 2018 are bringing up memories of Simmons, we'll see.


Man, you can't go 2 posts without knob slobbering the Warriors. They had to overpay some guys because they didn't have much choice. They had zero cap room so it was either overpay or sign someone new at the minimum. They opted for the sure thing and continuity.

That's not even comparable to the Spurs situation. They had cap room.
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flashplayer
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8:16a, 7/15/17
AG
The express news interviewed Simmons yesterday. He definitely was the one leaking the 9 million number. He made it sound like he wanted more than what he got with Orlando. He also wanted to play more minutes. Sounds like he and the spurs definitely made a mutual decision to part.
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Pumpkinhead
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In reply to flashplayer • 8:25a, 7/15/17
AG
flashplayer said:
Pumpkinhead said:
superunknown said:
Dude, no.

If you think paying 6.7m for 6 points in 18 minutes a game is a good idea...well...man, I'm sorry the Knicks hired a GM already. You would have done great there.


Warriors just gave Shawn Livingston a 3-year $24 million contract. He averaged 5.1 points per game and 17.7 minutes per game last season. And he will be 32 years old this December. I don't think you can just look at stats and minutes in a vacuum and determine whether some GM made the right call. But Spurs apparently didn't think he was worth what Orlando was willing to pay and he walked. Simmons' young family is living in tax free Disneyworld with $20 million so they will probably be fine. Whether Spurs fans in May 2018 are bringing up memories of Simmons, we'll see.


Man, you can't go 2 posts without knob slobbering the Warriors. They had to overpay some guys because they didn't have much choice. They had zero cap room so it was either overpay or sign someone new at the minimum. They opted for the sure thing and continuity.

That's not even comparable to the Spurs situation. They had cap room.


Yep. You can't just look at the stats.
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flashplayer
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In reply to Pumpkinhead • 8:30a, 7/15/17
AG
That's right. You can't. There's this magical thing called facts and context. I was only giving you a hard time about yet another Warriors mention.
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flashplayer
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8:51a, 7/15/17
AG
Back to off-season strategy conversation...what the hell are they gonna do with Pau? I think it's dumb to sign him past this year. If they give him more than 2 years, he will be more difficult to salary dump later. I can't believe they see him as a piece that is key enough to waste next years cap room. Or maybe they do another 1+1 contract at about the same $ as last time. Not sure exactly what they have money wise at this point.
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