superunknown said:

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I miss watching Prime Melo during his days with the Nugs. Such a fluid scorer. If he threw himself into the Marion/diaw 7SOL Suns style Houston would be pretty deadly but i dont think he's there mentally.

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He also doesn't move like that anymore.

Lee or Diaw + SloMo+Patty+Gay+Bertans+Murray

Well one of Murray or Patty is a starter so take one off plus you need to add Melo.

So really you are saying you would take Gay+Slo-mo+Bertrans+Mills over Tucker+Gordon+Nene+Melo

Most would say that is nuts.

Obviously we need to see how both rosters play out completely before we make a call. If Spurs get back Simmons and Lee/Diaw then that obviously adds some real depth.

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Lee or Diaw + SloMo+Patty+Gay+Bertans+Murray

Well one of Murray or Patty is a starter so take one off plus you need to add Melo.

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I'm talking about bench, so no need to add Melo. Nov and Dec don't really matter as much as April and May, so I am assuming Tony is the starting PG.

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So really you are saying you would take Gay+Slo-mo+Bertrans+Mills over Tucker+Gordon+Nene+Melo


Most would say that is nuts.

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Stupid argument is stupid. Who is starting at PF if Tucker+Gordon+Nene+Melo is coming off the bench. Does being so wrong so often ever get embarrassing for you?

So now Parker is a starter for you, when you were the one hyping that he was likely done?

You just love to argue, when anyone disagrees with you. If Gay had gone to the rockets and Melo to the Spurs you would be singing a completely different tune. You change with the wind based on what the Spurs FO does. Have an opinion for yourself it's ok.

I love how you list 6 players for the Spurs vs 4 for the rockets then argue when I make it an even 4. The argument was Gay vs Melo so they both obviously have to be in the comparison. Gay could easily start for the Spurs by the end of the year, especially with how bad Gasol and LMA played together.

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So now Parker is a starter for you, when you were the one hyping that he was likely done?

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He and the team seem to think he is coming back. So yeah, he will probably start. One of Parker/Mills/Murray is going to be the starter. The other two are bench depth. Pick your two, all are better than the PGs on the bench for the Rockets. Currently, the PGs on the bench for the Rockets are Tim Quarterman and Isaiah Taylor.

But then again, you used Melo on the Rockets bench to prove how much better the Rockets bench is than the Spurs. I can't think of a worse argument on this thread. Maybe I should go read more of your posts.

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You just love to argue, when anyone disagrees with you. If Gay had gone to the rockets and Melo to the Spurs you would be singing a completely different tune. You change with the wind based on what the Spurs FO does. Have an opinion for yourself it's ok.

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All my opinions are backed by stats. Go watch Melo highlights. They are pretty much all ISOs. He got MDA fired. His shooting numbers were much worse than Rudy's.

I don't change with the wind because my posts are rooted in fact and statistics. No one has a clue what yours are rooted in, but it sure isn't knowledge.

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I love how you list 6 players for the Spurs vs 4 for the rockets then argue when I make it an even 4.

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You added a starter to their bench to show bench depth. That is freaking idiotic. No one else on their team is NBA rotation-caliber so I didn't list them.

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The argument was Gay vs Melo so they both obviously have to be in the comparison.

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No, the argument was Spurs bench depth. Go look at the quote I very clearly replied to. For now, Gay is a bench player, while Melo will be their starting PF.

Unless you want to change it.

Gay vs Melo - Melo is a better player. He's also less efficient, is a huge negative on defense, has played over 1000 NBA games, is turning 34 and has gotten his coaches fired.

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Gay could easily start for the Spurs by the end of the year, especially with how bad Gasol and LMA played together.

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He definitely could, especially based on matchups game to game. But then you replace him with Gasol off the bench, who is pretty effective per minute played (18/11/3 per 36 last year.) 6MOY Eric Gordon was 19/3/3 per 36.

LMA with Spurs-positive instagram post?

https://instagr.am/p/BWgCHeOD3EC

Your "facts" include that Parker and Gay are going to be similar players as they were pre injuries. If that happens they will be one of the exceptions not the norm, so it's far from a fact. And the initial argument was absolutely Gay vs Melo. Go look, it's only one page back.

The bench argument is ridiculous until we know who both teams finish with, but it is absurd to say right now that it will be a strength.

Murray has looked awful in SL, Bertans hasn't done much either, Simmons and Lee aren't signed, Manu isn't either and is pushing 40. Your "facts" are really simply your opinions.

And since all your points are so fact driven supposedly, both Melo and Gay are both 45% FG 35% 3 pt shooters for their careers Melo obviously has a much higher PPG. Gay is coming off an injury, Melo is healthy but older. They are about the same inefficient scorers, like I said before. Maybe one will fair better than the other in a new system, but to argue one and completely dismiss the other like you did is idiotic. Both are an absolute coin flip on how they will fair.

I don't see anyone on here saying Gay promises a ring while Melo will bust. There are questions on both fronts. From a risk standpoint it's not even close. Gay is a cheap piece with upside and we know the team can win without him. Melo will take quite a move to get and he makes over $20 million for a few more years. Yeah. One for one Melo is better IMO so if the Spurs could get him for $7 million they should do it.

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Your "facts" include that Parker and Gay are going to be similar players as they were pre injuries.

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[Citation Needed]

Making things up and arguing against them is weak.

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And the initial argument was absolutely Gay vs Melo. Go look, it's only one page back.

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No. I was replying specifically to a post about bench depth.
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Your post is quoted. Then for reasons that make no sense, you added Melo to the bench depth discussion to counter my argument that the Spurs have better bench depth.

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The bench argument is ridiculous until we know who both teams finish with, but it is absurd to say right now that it will be a strength.

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It's been a strength of the Spurs for decades and most of those guys are under contract or have openly said they are signing (Gasol.)

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Murray has looked awful in SL, Bertans hasn't done much either,

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If Summer League really mattered, I might be worried. I'm assuming you don't remember Brandon Jennings destroying Summerleague while Steph Curry looked like a steaming pile.

What about Adam Morrison. Summer league god. http://www.nba.com/summer-league/2012/players/sl_adam_morrison/

Check out Anthony Randolph in Summer League.


In this interview, Tim Duncan talks about how he got his **** wrecked by Greg Ostertag in Summer League. Then Ostertag became the GOAT PF and we never heard of that Tim fellow again.

http://www.slamonline.com/blogs/the-links/links-and-they-say-the-nba-has-problems/#lhGZrIH0gZ5PuydV.97

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Simmons and Lee aren't signed, Manu isn't either and is pushing 40. Your "facts" are really simply your opinions.

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No, my facts are facts. I didn't rely on Simmons or Manu, did I? If they join the team, great. If not, our bench is still better than Houston's.

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And since all your points are so fact driven supposedly, both Melo and Gay are both 45% FG 35% 3 pt shooters for their careers Melo obviously has a much higher PPG. Gay is coming off an injury, Melo is healthy but older. They are about the same inefficient scorers, like I said before. Maybe one will fair better than the other in a new system, but to argue one and completely dismiss the other like you did is idiotic. Both are an absolute coin flip on how they will fair.

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Let's look closer.

Last three years, Melo has averaged:
.436 FG
.348 3FG
.481 eFG
.532 TS%

Last three years, Gay has averaged:
.458 FG
.356 3FG
.496 eFG
.549 TS%

All noticeably better than Melo.

As Melo has gotten older, he has relied more on his mid-range jump shot and he is one of the best Mid-Range shooters in the league - however this is a less efficient game than slashing to the hoop, especially as talented as he was. When he was younger, he was a brilliant slasher. As a Rookie, Melo's average shot was 10.1 feet from the basket. That has steadily increased and was 16.6ft last year. Additionally, as a rookie, Melo shot 6.4FTAs, then peaking and averaging 8.2FTA from 2006-2011. Then he began decreasing as he relied more on his mid range game and less on his driving ability and posted a career low 4.9FTA/game last year.

Gay's average distance has stayed relatively the same throughout his career. His FTA have mostly increased with his two best seasons in 2014 and 15.

No one is going to argue that Gay is a better scorer or better player than Melo, but Melo does have a lot of issues and the Spurs won't be counting on Gay to carry the same load that Melo will be counted on for the Rockets.

* Melo is a less efficient scorer than Gay
* Melo scores more in ISO ball.
* Melo got at least one coach fired.
* Melo's stats are on a noticeable decline despite always being the clear #1 scorer on his team.
* Melo plays absolutely no defense.
* Melo has played over 1000 NBA games (soon to pass 1100) plus international ball

flashplayer said:

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Damn. I'll bring the bleach, someone else bring some mops and help me clean up this blood bath.

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Yeah?

Spelled the name wrong and didn't include a team. And DA was my favorite like 12 years ago.

Truth. He needs to get back on those honey nut cheerios.

Old Army Metal said:

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The_chum said:

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who all is available to replace Simmons

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Uhh ... Rudy Gay?

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you seriously going to compare Gay and Jsims? Completely different players.

You put Parker in the starting lineup and used Gays last 3 years as comparisons, those obviously imply that you are assuming they will be similar players as before. They are both coming off devastating injuries. Then you use the last 3 years stats to argue because pre injury Gay has had slightly higher, yet still similar and inefficient numbers? That cherry picking is a joke right? The truth is both players will be used in an entirely different role than they were on their previous teams, both have been similar inefficient scorers their entire careers and both are unknowns on how they would fit on their new teams. An even bigger unknown is how Gay recovers from an Achilles tear. Neither player will be asked to take on as heavy a role as on previous teams.

We don't know how the benches will finish but rockets in this scenario would have a top core of Harden, Paul, Melo, Ariza, Capella, Tucker, Gordon vs the Spurs core of Kawhi, LMA, Gay, Green, Gasol, Mills, Murray/Parker post-injury

Most honest folks would say the Rox are more talented/deep (outside of Kawhi) in that bunch, but obviously we need to finish out the benches before a full comparison can be made.

I mean if you just want to go down the list of best players and see who you would trade for who.

Kawhi over Harden
Paul over LMA
Melo over Gay
Gordon over Mills
Green over Tucker
Capella push vs old Gasol (guarantee rockets wouldn't make this trade).
Ariza push Murray/injured Parker

It really doesn't take much to see who has more talent/depth in their core. Maybe the Spurs finish out their bench strong and the rockets don't, maybe the Spurs culture and system make them a mug more cohesive team, but to argue that the Spurs are so much deeper based on what we know today (especially amongst the core players) is just not true.

Saying the rockets got deeper while the Spurs didn't this off-season thus far, isn't anything earth shattering. Like I said we really need to see how it finishes out, but it is ridiculous to argue pro Gay for the Spurs and anti Melo for the rockets when they are such similar players and in similar circumstances.

Tucker better than Green? Come on man..

I think Green is about as overrated as it gets the last couple years, but I'll change that one. Point remains though, that Rockets will have some real depth now after the off-season, especially if they land Melo.

You forgot
Pop >>>>>> Dantoni

No I didn't. I completely agree with that. Spurs have a huge advantage in coaching. It's not even close. Plus Kawhi is significantly better than Harden, so big advantage to the Spurs there as well.

Where the Spurs lack is creating offense, with TP out injured and Simmons expected to not re-sign. If they can land Diaw that helps, but otherwise Gay is going to have to take on some of that role. Especially with Manu almost 40. Will Gay have the explosiveness post injury to do that? Melo on the rockets would have the luxury of CP3 and Harden to do much of the creating. He could be a slasher and corner 3 player. Will he take on that more efficient role for them? Who knows, but he certainly isn't going to be asked to carry any heavier of a load in Houston, than Gay is going to be asked to do in San Antonio. If Gay isn't a creator for the Spurs then who is outside of Kawhi? That's the biggest unknown for the Spurs right now.

Also, though Chris Paul is a huge upgrade for them, they've lost 2 rotation players so far and only added 2 (Paul and Tucker). They haven't gotten deeper. They'll have to give up another rotation player to grab Melo. They might be upgrading talent, but you're silly to claim they've improved their depth.

They'll still be an 8 man deep team unless they pull in a couple ring chasers.

He has performed worse ever since his contract extension. He hasn't developed even a mediocre drive game. His 3 pt percentage has dipped despite lots of open looks that the system generated for him. It's the one offensive skill he is asked to do. He is also 30 now and coming off two just ok seasons. Also, the Spurs desperately need someone to create. If PG is weak and your 2 guard isn't a driver, then that's asking even more of Kawhi. If we had a dynamic PG to get Green even more open looks then he would be more valuable. But that likely isn't the case this year.

I was really hoping Simmons was re-signed, worked on his shot and took Green's spot by the time playoffs rolled around. Simmons played much better defense in the post season. Green is an ok role player, but not nearly the player folks hype him up to be on here and it wouldn't be all that difficult to replace his skill set here.

Depth is a combination of talent and numbers. It isn't just numbers. Would you say GSW are a deep team? I would say they absolutely are. Rockets are 8 deep if they add Melo, to go with Paul, Harden, Gordon, Ariza, Tucker, Nene, Capella. That is a clear upgrade amongst the top 8. Add a draft pick or a couple vet mins and you are at 10 deep. How many more players do you think they need or will even play.

Arguing about depth from player number 9 to the end of the bench has never been the difference in a championship as those guys aren't heavily counted on.

Danny Green is an elite 3 and D player. No one has ever claimed he's anything more than that, but you act like any slapdick from the park could replace him. I don't know if he kicked your dog or something, but you're ridiculous hate for him is pushing azul level stupid.

flashplayer said:

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They might be upgrading talent, but you're silly to claim they've improved their depth.

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If you are talking about the Spurs facing the Rockets in the playoffs, the issue of depth becomes less important.

The Los Angeles Clippers defeated the Spurs in the 2015 playoffs just a couple of years ago with a guy named Chris Paul playing PG for them. The Clippers were almost universally regarded as a top-heavy team relying heavily on 4-5 players with very little depth.

If the Rockets were to add Melo, it would be silly IMO to just brush off a team with Harden/Paul/Melo as not some kind of legitimate threat to beat the Spurs if they met in the playoffs.

The Spurs will have A LOT of question marks next season. They appeared to look for ways this off-season to trade Aldridge. After Harden, LMA's reputation may have taken the next biggest hit in the 2017 playoffs based on how he disappeared vs. the Warriors. Manu who still was out there being asked to make plays several weeks ago is now turning 40 years old. Tony Parker is turning 36 years old by the time of next season and will be out until at least January with a serious injury. That young kid Murray if the designated PG of the future is a huge question mark still on whether he is going to pan out. Some bench is changing. Lee is gone. Dedmon is gone. Simmons may be gone. The best off-season signing (Rudy Gay) is a guy coming off a major injury.

I know the Spurs get the benefit of the doubt, and they SHOULD, because of the consistency they have had over the past two decades. And they have a top-5 player in Kawhi. But from a distance, you do get the sense that San Antonio is somewhat in a 'transition' phase as the roster gets retooled around Kawhi and even for the best coaching staffs, transitions can be bumpy. We'll see. I personally can see both sides of the argument regarding both faith in the Spurs organization but also some concerns in how the off-season played out.

AG 2000' said:

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Tucker better than Green? Come on man..

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Trash poster is trash.

I don't hate the guy at all, I just don't see him as part of a championship team that lacks an elite PG to create wide open shots for him.

His 3 point shooting part of his elite 3 and D hasn't been that great the last couple years and his playoff defense wasn't great either. He is 30 and slowing a bit. He used to be the guy that we could put on a quicker PG to give TP a break. He struggled in that role in the playoffs.

I'm not hating on the guy, I just think his value to the Spurs is grossly overrated on here. I think there is a reason the Spurs were willing to move him.

What's funny is I said the same thing about LMA not fitting after about watching about a half of season one and was told how idiotic I was. Finally at the end of this year folks finally woke up, to the fact that Spurs aren't winning a title with LMA as the second best player and he has all but stopped the Spurs elite ball movement.

Same thing with 30 year old Green. Spurs simply aren't winning a title with him as your starting 2 guard. Especially without an elite PG to create for him.

We can either be really good with Kawhi and Pop or we can make moves to try to win a title. Hopefully next off-season they make the big moves to find Kawhi some help, because this team, although very good, isn't a real threat to win a title.

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If you are talking about the Spurs facing the Rockets in the playoffs, the issue of depth becomes less important.

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It was widely discussed when the Spurs beat the Rockets last year that the Rockets' core was too tired in the 2nd round. Then they got older and shallower. Depth absolutely matters.

Since I'm such a trash poster and you are so knowledgable, let's make a bet. You seem to think the Spurs got better this off-season and I think they slipped a little.

If the Spurs win less games than last year and finish below the two seed then you don't post on Spurs threads anymore.

If the Spurs win more games and finish as the two seed or higher then I won't.

Let me guess, you won't take that bet?

In my years of posting history if you can find any example of me making or taking any sort of similar bet, I'll take the bet.

And yes, your posts here are whiney garbage. Why don't you make up other things that no one ever said and argue against that? That seems to be your most effective strategy.

What are you even talking about?

I'm talking about a simple bet right now, based on how the Spurs will do this upcoming year. It's pretty simple put something on the line to support your nonsense.

Nonsense - like when I was clearly comparing the two benches and you included a clear starter to bolster your argument?

I think Green is fine as the starting 2 based on D alone. We don't rely on his scoring. Other than GSW who has elite at all 5 positions? And I'd argue 2nd team all D team is worth a starting slot.

The initial argument was Gay vs Melo, and you left one of them out of the equation.

Take the bet and put something behind your "fact" based opinions.