I don't know about that. HBO tends to be all about the penultimate episode for crazy ****, which we did get.

The Watch podcast guys had a great point/question this week. We all know the big twist is likely coming, but it's how they treat it that's going to be interesting. Did Nolan & Joy have enough foresight to know that all the hardcore fans would figure out the two timelines way in advance, and thus they get the reveal out of the way relatively early in the finale - or - do they still treat it as this grand, huge shocker toward the end of the episode? The Watch guys said they'd be disappointed if it was the latter, and I think I will be too. Would love for them to get that out of the way early, without a ton of fanfare, so they have more to time to set up/hint at some of the threads/questions for next season.

bobinator said:

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I do think there's going to be an "oh ****" moment on Sunday of something so big that none of us saw it coming.

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I don't have a whole lot to point to for this, more just a feeling, but I think Ford might try to flood the park Noah's Arc style. We see the construction equipment digging what seems to be a ravine and Teddy in one of the early episodes talks about a section of the park with water that will wash you free of your sins. I don't have the exact quote, but it was something along those lines.

Last episode will be directed by M Knight Shamalama. Get ready for a big twist!

I don't know about a flood, but I do think that massive digger needs to come back into play in some way. Such an effects-heavy scene/set piece with no real payoff yet.

It would be kind of funny if the episode just starts with someone dropping the MiB's name and it's like "welp, there's that"

TCTTS said:

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I don't know about a flood, but I do think that massive digger needs to come back into play in some way. Such an effects-heavy scene/set piece with no real payoff yet.

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I hadn't considered a flood, but water has sort of been a recurring thing. There were flooding problems in the basement levels early on, Dolores and Teddy have both talked about water...

That would be pretty wild.

Yeah, I'm not convinced there will actually be a flood or anything, it's just one way that I think those diggers could come back into play. I agree that they need a bigger payoff than simply "they dug up the church town".

3rdGen2015 said:

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bobinator said:

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I do think there's going to be an "oh ****" moment on Sunday of something so big that none of us saw it coming.

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I don't have a whole lot to point to for this, more just a feeling, but I think Ford might try to flood the park Noah's Arc style. We see the construction equipment digging what seems to be a ravine and Teddy in one of the early episodes talks about a section of the park with water that will wash you free of your sins. I don't have the exact quote, but it was something along those lines.

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Found the quote:

"Well, there is a place I heard about down south where the mountains meet the sea. They say the water's so pure there it'll wash the past clean off you."

That's it. That's the big twist. Everyone who visits the park is shrunken down Honey I Shrunk the Kids style, and the map is actually the park. The big reveal will be a flashback to a bunch of characters looking up to see a huge dong raining pee down on them.

In all seriousness, though, that's not a bad potential foreshadowing catch.

Ha, wow. Great minds...

TCTTS said:

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That's it. That's the big twist. Everyone who visits the park is shrunken down Honey I Shrunk the Kids style, and the map is actually the park. The big reveal will be a flashback to a bunch of characters looking up to see a huge dong raining pee down on them.

In all seriousness, though, that's not a bad potential foreshadowing catch.

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HBO does love themselves a huge dong shot.........

I think we may be on to something here!

bobinator said:

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Thinking about this though did make me realize that maybe the MiB has realized a way to get the hosts off their normal path is to cause a traumatic event. Explains why he aces Teddy in front of Dolores for what, at the time, seems like no reason.

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john32f said:

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AggieRebel said:

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Bob and John, I think y'all are misinterpreting the William/dolores situation. He never says he thinks Dolores is alive, just that there is something different about her. Very different than what he says he saw with Maeve and her daughter where Maeve experiencing grief/hysteria over the loss of her child and showing an extrodianry will to live to try to help her

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Yeah, I just don't agree with that at all. Especially when as viewers we see that Maeve and Delores are going through the same awakening transformation. They're becoming sentient / alive. To say he doesn't recognize it in Delores when he's clearly so enamored and in love with her just doesn't make sense. And even if there are some nuances there, the interactions are not so different that he'd differentiate the two completely. During the MIB's speech, he gives the impression that Maeve's reaction is unlike anything he's ever seen at the park before.

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Delores and Maeve aren't quite going through the same awakening, though. The distinction is that Maeve knows what she/it really is and also what WW really is. Maeve is trying to control the other hosts to help her/it get out of WW. Maeve's awareness is focused outward. By contrast, Delores is still ignorant of the world outside of WW; her/its awareness is focused inward. Delores is trying to control her own narrative within the context of WW, not outside of it. We know that Delores is Arnold's creation. Perhaps Maeve is Ford's. Arnold's method was an internal, introspective one. Ford's method is more direct and less "elegant." Ford is trying to code his way into AI. Arnold wanted to build a reasoning, reflective mind. Maeve and Bernard are only what Ford coded them to be, while Delores seems capable of real thought. Different approaches to the same end: AI.

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That's a lot more fitting of Logan that it is of William. And if the MIB were Logan, the parallels between him murdering Delores and him murdering Maeve would be a lot more poignant. Regardless, we'll find out Sunday. I don't think William will end up being MIB and I wouldn't be shocked if MIB ends up a host.

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Everything points against MIB being a host. The "rules" for being a host have been established by this point (e.g., can be injured or killed, not capable of independent action, renegade hosts are rounded up by security). Moreover, the MIB was specifically referred to as a guest who can do whatever he wants, he's been coming here for years, etc. For the writers to make him into a host at this point would be a betrayal of the story so far, no more than a cheap twist thrill, and lazy writing. If he turns out to be Logan, it will be almost as inexplicable. He's got to be William.

How would it be almost as inexplicable if it's Logan? I thought we saw Logan's character change quite a bit in the last episode. It could very easily be Logan without any major plot holes as far as I'm aware, just some odd narrative choices. It's not even on the same level of absurd of the MiB being a host.

And also Dolores has made references to things outside the park, so she's not ignorant, she just doesn't seem intent on escaping like Maeve does. She did her whole "why would I want to escape when you people are all fighting to get in" talk.

I think people will be surprised by the finale. The ultimate plot twist would be MIB is a host (maybe even William host - Ford's board plant) who gained sentience and left the park. That would explain his backstory, why he feels so comfortable in the park and seeks it out, why he has been going there for 30 years, why Ford said he was on a journey of self discovery, why he had to kill Maeve and her daughter around a year ago to see if he felt anything. It would also align with the movie, which has been in front of our faces the entire time...in the movie the MIB is a host who kills humans. (The primary hole in this is that when the hosts shoot MIB, the bullets don't hurt him).

Another hole in the timeline theory is the scene with Delores in the barn about to get raped by the handlebar mustache host, and she has a flash-back to MIB and hears the voice "kill him". She shoots that host, flees the barn and has another flash-back to where she was killed trying to escape. This time, she does escape and makes it out into the field where she finds William. The reason Teddy Flood is not there to save her this time is because he is off with MIB. So, we know she has lived through that loop enough times while Teddy was not present in order to learn how to escape that scene. She escapes during some timeline and finds William...so where was Teddy that time?

We also know from the devilish hosts head being on the wall in Lee Sizemore's office, that those 'devil' hosts or the hosts that are part of 'Wyatt's" clan are from the past. It is likely that this entire loop has been played out before.

I wonder if Delores kills William, Ford recreates William, William obtains control of Delos, William keeps returning the to the park and is a part of Delores' loop, and William over time becomes MIB. Now we are seeing MIB finally making it to the end of the maze, and as Ford said, his journey of self discovery. I wonder if Delores kills MIB (like she did william), and our last scene of the finale is MIB sitting in a chair naked in front of Ford.

bobinator said:

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Thinking about this though did make me realize that maybe the MiB has realized a way to get the hosts off their normal path is to cause a traumatic event. Explains why he aces Teddy in front of Dolores for what, at the time, seems like no reason.

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But that is specifically what Dolores is built for. Everybody aces Teddy and drags her off and rapes her. That's her story - the innocent farmer's daughter that a black hat guest can go rape. Even when the guest don't want to rape her, one of the hosts does it anyways. I'm sure part of the "fun" of that story is gunning down her gunslinger boyfriend, so she's seen Teddy get murdered hundreds of times (MIB even alludes to that).

If MIB did anything to set her off, it was inside that barn.

I agree it was mostly inside the barn, but he made a whole show of killing off Teddy while he was dragging her. If he was simply trying to do something to Dolores he could have just popped him when he first rode up.

claym711 said:

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Another hole in the timeline theory is the scene with Delores in the barn about to get raped by the handlebar mustache host, and she has a flash-back to MIB and hears the voice "kill him". She shoots that host, flees the barn and has another flash-back to where she was killed trying to escape. This time, she does escape and makes it out into the field where she finds William. The reason Teddy Flood is not there to save her this time is because he is off with MIB. So, we know she has lived through that loop enough times while Teddy was not present in order to learn how to escape that scene. She escapes during some timeline and finds William...so where was Teddy that time?

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Teddy gets dragged off with other guests all the time. We've seen it happen a couple of different times in the ~5 times they've showed us that loop. It's also possible he wasn't bounty hunter / love interest Teddy yet, he could have been in a different role. Either way, certainly not a hole.

I still think this scene between Teddy, the MiB, and Dolores in the first episode was a big foreshadowing for the end. Specifically with the line of the MiB to Teddy: "How about I give you first shot, hmm? After all, every dog has his day." Add that with the fact that there still has to be a reason behind the gun Dolores digs up. It can't be just a regular gun (in park terms) or what'd be the point. Plus, that's a loose end that needs to be tied up. Perhaps that was the gun she used to kill Arnold, or maybe that gun will find it's way into the final scene.

And while I have long believed the MiB to be William, it would make just as much sense to me if he ended up being Logan. Would almost require less explanation in my opinion. If the MiB turns out to be William, they are gonna have to go into a lot on what would drive him to treat her like he has. The interactions in the first episode (The only meeting between the two we've seen beyond him just walking into the church) make a stronger case for him to Logan than William.

I love the show!

I'm about:
80% certain William = MiB and have been since the second episode.
19% Logan could be the MiB, but am pretty confident it is William
1% Some one else
99.9% certain the MiB is not a host.

I am on board with Delores as Wyatt and thought as much while watching the episode.
I agree "the general" is probably Arnold but am much less confident.

Also I am ok with the Mave story line. It is probably my least favorite, but it is so well done and acted I have no problems with it. People do stupid things all the time, even smart people frequently do absurdly stupid things and then double down by doing even dumber things. I do not think the techs are a plot hole. If you do that is fine, we all have different experiences, but the idea a low level programmer would willing to go to extreme lengths to see artificial intelligence and help something (some one) he has grown attached to is well with in the realm of possibility. The idea he could get his friend and co-worker to go along with it is easy to accept. People grossly violating all kinds of significant rules in order to avoid being caught having violated some relatively minor rules is incredibly common. Hell, getting people to incrementally violate rules and slowly gain trust is basically text book human intelligence gathering. Finally, I think the emo Glenn genuinely cares for her and waned to see what would happen if he turned things up to twenty.

dlance said:

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3rdGen2015 said:

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john32f said:

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Belton Ag said:

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At this point, if you don't believe William = MIB, you're straight up in denial.

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Yeah. I don't know if it's been stated in this thread about the hat symbolism but it's pretty clear that William, young and innocent in the white hat at the beginning, has become the old and sinister figure in the black hat at the end.

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As Bobinator pointed out, for a show that focuses so much on details, I find it hard to believe that the MIB's conversation where he reveals his backstory wasn't analyzed from every angle. And two things happen in that conversation.

1. He says after killing Maeve and seeing her reaction, he saw her as a human for the first time ever. William sees Delores as a human, period. He may change his mind, but right now there is no question asked he sees her as a human.

2. He says after Maeve's death, the maze revealed itself to him for the first time, and suddenly the ground around him has the maze pattern in it. Delores has spoken of the maze to William, and he said he'd help her find it.

The show wants you to think MIB = William. I think that's a red herring and on Sunday we find out he is a host and part of the arnold/ford new narrative.

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He's been recognized by other guests. Unless Ford sent a host outside of the park, which is super unlikely, I doubt he'll be revealed as a host.

Other than that, I think it's probably 80/20 that MiB = William. That part about him seeing Maeve as human in his old age bothers me too.

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He didn't say "human". He said "truly alive".

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That and he (William) never says the same about Dolores - he says she is different and he wants to help her, etc......he never says she is truly alive (nor human or anything like that). His future BIL continually teases him about treating her as if she is "real" but he never argues that as he finds it nearly impossible to explain what he sees in her - but it's not "alive" per se I don't think. Just different.


Side note - my return from exodus:

I've been absent and silent (you're welcome) since episode 2 or so....when I proclaimed this show was LOST.

That wasn't actually like a tuning out or turning off of the show - On a personal level I just got soooo busy I had not time to watch and fell 3-4 episodes behind. Therefore I did not read this board and contribute.

But I binge watched 6 episodes this weekend through Monday and I'm all caught up now. I was hearing a lot about the show - not details or spoilers - but knew I had to catch up before the finale.

VERY glad I did.

Couple of points

1. Whether or not this show is LOST is still maybe debatable but I will say a hell of a lot more forethought was put into this in terms of mapping out at least season 1. 10 episodes is manageable from that perspective - as opposed to LOST where they got the pilot and 5-6 episodes before it started airing and I think immediately started reacting to fan reaction. Big mistake. These 10 episodes were completely done before it aired so there was no chance for midstream change - that helps it.

2. The acting.....wow....wow...really can't say enough. 2 episodes in I thought Anthony Hopkins was being wasted as the grandfatherly slightly eccentric park owner (ala Hammond/Richard Attenborough in Jurassic Park).....ummm NO. Wow he is so damn good. Just incredible. And the women....WOW!!! Evan Rachel Wood and Thandie Newton - impressive in their own ways. Was more impressed by ERW early on - her robot on/off modes were impressive....but TN has gotten the meaty stuff lately. She is chewing up the screen. She might be working with bumbling idiots downstairs but she has so many fun scenes of real juicy stuff. And Jeffrey Wright....might be the best of the bunch in an understated way. Everyone else (save for the bumbling idiots) are really solid at least.

3. Production value. $100 million well spent. Incredible.


On to the finale.

I think anyone expecting the huge plot twist/ reveal might be sorely disappointed. I have not honestly been surprised by anything yet - that doesn't mean it isn't great. But if you were the least bit surprised by Bernard or any of the murders or the timelines or even William = MIB well I don't know...I guess you aren't a Michael Crichton reader for one thing. Classic Crichton storyline really. I doubt we see anything hugely unexpected - because those are usually writer induced creations to meet expectations of an unrealistic audience buildup as the finale approaches. And often wholly unrealistic and ruinous. Remember this was already in the can and planned out and done. It might be something in the context of the park as whole or the world outside it that we have not seen thus far - I suppose that could be a shocker. But it won't be because they feel the need to deliver that. It will be because thats what they planned all along. Thats refreshing.

Conclusion - it might still be LOST but.....the writing and acting and production value are so good that right now I don't care. This is going to sweep a lot of awards. Damn HBO is good.

Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Another timeline explanation chronologically from Dolores and the control room under the steeple perspective....who she meets when and a little of what it means extrapolation.

WARNING - spoilers in the form of predictions for the finale....but who knows really.

http://uproxx.com/tv/westworld-timelines-unraveled/

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Reading that link reminded me why I stopped going to Uproxx/WarmingGlow during the Breaking Bad and Mad Men eras. That Dustin Rowles guy is terrible. He always has bad interpretations and theories that don't make sense.

He's generally got the timelines right and I know anything is still possible but there's no way there's an elevator in the actual steeple, nor is Teddy a stand in for Arnold during the massacre, nor does Dolores switch to a blue dress in the William timeline to meet Bernard for the first time, nor is there any indication Dolores and william get caught up in the Abernathy cannibal story.

For a better breakdown I recommend Vanity Fair's Joanna Robinson. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/westworld-recap-season-1-episode-9-well-tempered-clavier

scubasteve304 said:

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Zombie Jon Snow said:

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Another timeline explanation chronologically from Dolores and the control room under the steeple perspective....who she meets when and a little of what it means extrapolation.

WARNING - spoilers in the form of predictions for the finale....but who knows really.

http://uproxx.com/tv/westworld-timelines-unraveled/

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Reading that link reminded me why I stopped going to Uproxx/WarmingGlow during the Breaking Bad and Mad Men eras. That Dustin Rowles guy is terrible. He always has bad interpretations and theories that don't make sense.

He's generally got the timelines right and I know anything is still possible but there's no way there's an elevator in the actual steeple, nor is Teddy a stand in for Arnold during the massacre, nor does Dolores switch to a blue dress in the William timeline to meet Bernard for the first time, nor is there any indication Dolores and william get caught up in the Abernathy cannibal story.

For a better breakdown I recommend Vanity Fair's Joanna Robinson. http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/11/westworld-recap-season-1-episode-9-well-tempered-clavier

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yeah he got a lot of cmmments along those lines...mostly i just was citing the timeline specifically.



and i just read it - yes good analysis....funny though she missed one thing that seems kinda simple. mentions the name anagrams and says but how can that really be since Ford came up with it on a whim. ....highly doubtful. he just played it as a whim. or it was implanted as a whim (if he is a host???).

We can parse out the language all we want, but didn't he ask Logan to help him get her out of the park? If that isn't an indicator that he thinks she's alive, then what is it?