She has flashbacks or dreams and they were confirmed in the "moving pictures" where she saw herself in that narrative.

bangobango said:

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My off the wall theory:

Arnold was/is a "host" that Ford built. Arnold became self-aware and tried to "free" the other robots. Arnold is the man at the center of the maze. Because he was a host, he died and came back to life time and time again. He's hidden himself either physically or metaphorically from Ford within Westworld.

Who builds another grown man a gift of recreating the only happy memory of their childhood? That's more of a son to father type of gift. Ford, as Arnold's creator, is seen as the father. Then Arnold and Ford have some kind of falling out, and the catastrophe of thirty years prior happens.

OR Arnold made Ford and Arnold is the human and Ford is the host, and Ford built the robots that we saw? That could explain why the man previously identified as Arnold is his dad?

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The idea that Arnold was a host that became self aware, grew to hate and lash out at humans, and had to be destroyed - but who's code/soul/essence persists in the programming of other hosts - seems plausible to me.

OldArmy71 said:

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Here is a podcast that outlines the theory that Bernard is a host.

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Thanks, I appreciate it. I went a read something about the theory after I posted, the most notable thing to me that gave it legs was the fact Ford keeps reminding Bernard of his back story.

mazag08 said:

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I really don't think Bernard is a host. Nor do I think he's related to Arnold in any way.

What if Logan is someone else? What if he's Arnold? The first death in the park of a non host. Knows the man in black. Man in black was there when he died.. MIB is William.. it would fit. Logan/ Arnold dies.. William/ MIB who he just named as his EVP takes over the company.

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Logan has already talked about Arnold's death. Pretty sure Logan=Arnold does not work.

Also, when Bernard is interviewing Dolores after she sees her family killed and shoots the guy in the barn, she uses the exact same phraseology to describe her grief that Bernard does when talking to his "wife" about the loss of his son. He seems unaware of the similarity. Maybe the scenes are out of order chronologically and he stole the line from Dolores. Or maybe they have both had the same programming.

Bunk Moreland said:

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bangobango said:

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Raptor said:

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Let's say their are "two timelines".

The beginning and the present. What doesn't make sense to me is why then would Dolores have been given the same loop 30+ years apart? She's in the original loop wearing the blue dress on a normal day of getting groceries and painting with newcomers William/Logan and in the same loop and blue dress (albeit subtle differences like the can of condensed milk) with the MiB.

Seems like her going back to the same exact narrative would have to be a ploy by someone powerful to get her to recreate whatever fury she brought down on Westworld in the first place, right?

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She has the same narrative and the other hooker that works the *****house with Maeve has the same narrative.

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Didn't the Asian worker dude tell Maeve that she's only been that for a year and a half or so? Also, Maeve clearly has flashbacks of a previous time when she appeared to be a mother out on the plains, and her family gets slaughtered I think.

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Sorry I wasn't more clear, but I meant Dolores has the same narrative and the other prostitute (not Maeve) is also a prostitute in the William/Logan scenes.

gotcha. I read that too fast. Thought it said Maeve. My bad.

I like everyone's theories on Ford/Arnold/Bernard, but that plot just makes my head hurt for now.

Did we ever see Maeve with William or Logan? We haven't, right?

This is why I need my ven diagrams.

AliasMan02 said:

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Did we ever see Maeve with William or Logan? We haven't, right?

This is why I need my ven diagrams.

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Maeve has not appeared in the backstory scenes.

I am pretty sure the tech told Maeve that she has only had her current role for 18 months and that previously she was a homesteader. If William and Logan are indeed 30 years earlier then who knows what (if any) role she had.

mathguy86 said:

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I am pretty sure the tech told Maeve that she has only had her current role for 18 months and that previously she was a homesteader. If William and Logan are indeed 30 years earlier then who knows what (if any) role she had.

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She hasn't heard voices, so I'm thinking she's a newer generation and her uniqueness is something else entirely.

bangobango said:

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My off the wall theory:

Arnold was/is a "host" that Ford built. Arnold became self-aware and tried to "free" the other robots. Arnold is the man at the center of the maze. Because he was a host, he died and came back to life time and time again. He's hidden himself either physically or metaphorically from Ford within Westworld.

Who builds another grown man a gift of recreating the only happy memory of their childhood? That's more of a son to father type of gift. Ford, as Arnold's creator, is seen as the father. Then Arnold and Ford have some kind of falling out, and the catastrophe of thirty years prior happens.

OR Arnold made Ford and Arnold is the human and Ford is the host, and Ford built the robots that we saw? That could explain why the man previously identified as Arnold is his dad?

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I really like the basic Arnold-as-a-"host" idea - that he was built by Ford, became self-aware, and tried to free the other robots. Kind of like Clu from Tron Legacy. Jeff Bridges' Flynn "built" a clone of himself (Clu) in the computer world because he needed help constructing "the perfect system," except Clu then took that directive to its optimal meaning and ultimately betrayed Flynn. I'm not saying it's the exact same dynamic here, but I'm thinking it's in the ballpark.

TCTTS said:

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bangobango said:

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My off the wall theory:

Arnold was/is a "host" that Ford built. Arnold became self-aware and tried to "free" the other robots. Arnold is the man at the center of the maze. Because he was a host, he died and came back to life time and time again. He's hidden himself either physically or metaphorically from Ford within Westworld.

Who builds another grown man a gift of recreating the only happy memory of their childhood? That's more of a son to father type of gift. Ford, as Arnold's creator, is seen as the father. Then Arnold and Ford have some kind of falling out, and the catastrophe of thirty years prior happens.

OR Arnold made Ford and Arnold is the human and Ford is the host, and Ford built the robots that we saw? That could explain why the man previously identified as Arnold is his dad?

---

I really like the basic Arnold-as-a-"host" idea - that he was built by Ford, became self-aware, and tried to free the other robots. Kind of like Clu from Tron Legacy. Jeff Bridges' Flynn "built" a clone of himself (Clu) in the computer world because he needed help constructing "the perfect system," except Clu then took that directive to its optimal meaning and ultimately betrayed Flynn. I'm not saying it's the exact same dynamic here, but I'm thinking it's in the ballpark.

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Yeah, exactly. Arnold was designed to be Ford's helper or right hand man, and then he went off the rails. Similar to Bernard if Bernard is a host.

But the problem there is why would Ford let it happen a second time?

bobinator said:

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But the problem there is why would Ford let it happen a second time?

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Because he is also trying to find the center of the maze and therefore find Arnold? In order to do that, he needs Dolores's help, and in order for Dolores to help him she has to be triggered by somebody the same way Arnold triggered her thirty years before?

So is the theory that "the maze" is a part of the park beyond even Ford's control? That Arnold turned on Ford and Ford basically allowed him (it) to live but sort of on a reservation, and then wiped the rest of the hosts?

Can we talk about the blood?

This week Mauve see's a pale, white naked host being made. As they start to pump the blood into the host its gains color and begins to look human. Several episodes ago the MIB kills Lawrence and drains his blood for Teddy. Obviously the blood in their bodies isn't just for effect. Is it safe to assume that this will play a role in the future with a host or someone we think is currently a human?

PooDoo said:

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How can you have any questions that William & Logan are an earlier time?

The logos should explain it clearly. All the old abandoned floors, the logo on the old computer system... is the same logo on everything when they came to the park.

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Because the way in which the show takes place, you're not just lead to believe events happen one after another, you're basically told as much. If the show writers come back and say aha, those things didn't actually happen in parallel, that's not great writing, it is deliberately obfuscating things for the sake of having a gotcha, twist type moment. I know some disagree with me, but that's where the debate comes from.

This is a little philosophical but William and the MIB represent two ends of the spectrum. Most people get wrapped up in Westworld for what it is. They're engrossed in playing the game, and generally keep to its rules, storylines, etc. In contrast, the MIB and William represent completely opposite sides of how to approach westworld. For the MIB, winning the game is an obsession, and nothing besides that matters. For William, how you interact is everything, and winning, losing, none of that matters. So you see the MIB kill without a thought, and moreso than any other guest, use the hosts for his own goals, regardless as grisly. On the other hand, William thinks the whole place is trying to manipulate him into feeling a certain way, and his only goal is to say his values remain unchanged even when there are no societal rules telling him that's how things have to be. Because of the contrast, it feels to me like the show is building toward a meeting between him, Delores, and the MIB all at the center of the maze. All of the other characters help us put that meeting into context and make our own judgments on their respective morality choices. Alternate timelines, then, would completely bungle that, especially if William becomes the MIB. What's more, all of the development you see from Delores with William doesn't really matter, and the conversations between Delores and Bernard that seem to coincide with her developing self-awareness make little sense.

I know some don't agree with that, but I feel like the show is building toward that, and if it ends up taking the two timeline approach, it seems like they're sacrificing a lot so they can say, "check out this twist!" They're also moving the focus away from the philosophies, morals, etc. that they've done a great job establishing to a game of let's pay attention to the minute details so we can figure out what they're hiding from us, which really just doesn't seem necessary to me.

bobinator said:

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So is the theory that "the maze" is a part of the park beyond even Ford's control? That Arnold turned on Ford and Ford basically allowed him (it) to live but sort of on a reservation, and then wiped the rest of the hosts?

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Remember the legend of the maze? That the man at the center of the maze died and died again and again, until finally constructing the maze and basically walling himself off from everybody?

Well, if Arnold is at the center of the maze, then maybe Ford tried to kill him, or did kill him, but somehow Arnold managed to keep bringing himself back to life. Eventually he created the maze within the park to hide himself from Ford.

BTW, I don't think it's going to be a literal maze. I think it will be a little more abstract than that. Maybe it just means he buried his consciousness in another hosts, or several other hosts. Who knows?

But I think the man in the middle of the maze is Arnold, and I think the dying over and over again tells us that the man at the center of the maze is a host. Ergo, vis-a-vis, concordantly, Arnold is a host.

All I think it means is that host blood is universal. They've said several times that hosts are basically like humans now.

The fact that they've gone out of their way to mention how much modern hosts are like humans biologically is the #1 reason I'm positive there are hosts at headquarters. Probably more than just Bernard at that.

Establishing that it's impossible to tell the difference is important so that there aren't a bunch of "HOW DID ANYONE NOT KNOW" plot holes down the road.

john32f said:

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PooDoo said:

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How can you have any questions that William & Logan are an earlier time?

The logos should explain it clearly. All the old abandoned floors, the logo on the old computer system... is the same logo on everything when they came to the park.

---

Because the way in which the show takes place, you're not just lead to believe events happen one after another, you're basically told as much. If the show writers come back and say aha, those things didn't actually happen in parallel, that's not great writing, it is deliberately obfuscating things for the sake of having a gotcha, twist type moment. I know some disagree with me, but that's where the debate comes from.

This is a little philosophical but William and the MIB represent two ends of the spectrum. Most people get wrapped up in Westworld for what it is. They're engrossed in playing the game, and generally keep to its rules, storylines, etc. In contrast, the MIB and William represent completely opposite sides of how to approach westworld. For the MIB, winning the game is an obsession, and nothing besides that matters. For William, how you interact is everything, and winning, losing, none of that matters. So you see the MIB kill without a thought, and moreso than any other guest, use the hosts for his own goals, regardless as grisly. On the other hand, William thinks the whole place is trying to manipulate him into feeling a certain way, and his only goal is to say his values remain unchanged even when there are no societal rules telling him that's how things have to be. Because of the contrast, it feels to me like the show is building toward a meeting between him, Delores, and the MIB all at the center of the maze. All of the other characters help us put that meeting into context and make our own judgments on their respective morality choices. Alternate timelines, then, would completely bungle that, especially if William becomes the MIB. What's more, all of the development you see from Delores with William doesn't really matter, and the conversations between Delores and Bernard that seem to coincide with her developing self-awareness make little sense.

I know some don't agree with that, but I feel like the show is building toward that, and if it ends up taking the two timeline approach, it seems like they're sacrificing a lot so they can say, "check out this twist!" They're also moving the focus away from the philosophies, morals, etc. that they've done a great job establishing to a game of let's pay attention to the minute details so we can figure out what they're hiding from us, which really just doesn't seem necessary to me.

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I agree 100% with your points, but I also think it is different timelines now.

I thought the scene where Felix and Sylvester found out that Maeve had been changed before was interesting. Someone wants Maeve to become self-aware on her own, and they changed her personality so that she'd have the right tools to do so. The paranoia, perception, etc. allow her to play Felix and Sylvester like a fiddle. So someone wanted her to manipulate them, which is why they haven't been caught yet. It'll be interesting to see who that is - whether it is Arnold as well or if that's tied to the corporate espionage plotline with Theresa. I wonder if the "these violent delights have violent ends" virus has something to do with affecting their personality traits or if it just affects their reveries / memories.

bangobango said:

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I agree 100% with your points, but I also think it is different timelines now.

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I think it is too.

I like the idea that "someone (i.e. Arnold) wants Maeve to become self-aware on her own." Otherwise, that whole scenario was really bugging me last night. It almost seemed too easy for her to just be able to wake herself up like that.

Several different interests at work here and any one of the three can be driving the narrative at any given moment.

1. The board
2. The outside sabotage (possibly or probably the board)
3. Ford
4. The hosts
5. MIB
6. Arnold

I couldn't disagree more with this. I actually think showing William and the MiB moving through the park in parallel is a great way of showing the evolution of the same character twice at the same time. The earlier William is evolving into the hardened man we know as the MiB while the MiB is evolving back as he gets closer to "the maze" and things in the park.

I'm choosing to believe they have a plan for the final confirmation of the time frames that will make the themes of the show more poignant, not less so.

Quote:

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Ergo, vis-a-vis, concordantly, Arnold is a host.

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Yeah I was a little relieved when they found out that was on purpose.

bobinator said:

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Logan can't be Arnold, he talked about the partner dying right as the park was about to open or whatever in last week's episode.

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Good point. Forgot about that.

TCTTS said:

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I like the idea that "someone (i.e. Arnold) wants Maeve to become self-aware on her own." Otherwise, that whole scenario was really bugging me last night. It almost seemed too easy for her to just be able to wake herself up like that.

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I think it fits better than any alternative.

They really made a point to say that she had a 14 point Apperception. That in itself is weird to say that a "homesteader" is now in charge of a *****house, but has that top score which would allow her to figure out there was another world.

I don't think she was designed to have that score, I think someone gave it to her recently.

AgLiving06 said:

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TCTTS said:

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I like the idea that "someone (i.e. Arnold) wants Maeve to become self-aware on her own." Otherwise, that whole scenario was really bugging me last night. It almost seemed too easy for her to just be able to wake herself up like that.

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I think it fits better than any alternative.

They really made a point to say that she had a 14 point Apperception. That in itself is weird to say that a "homesteader" is now in charge of a *****house, but has that top score which would allow her to figure out there was another world.

I don't think she was designed to have that score, I think someone gave it to her recently.

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I think that's definitely the case.

I still don't think the picture of Ford and "Arnold" should be taken at face value. There is just no way they would have a prop that has a picture of two men and then just a big ole space off to the right.

There's a third person in that picture, we (Bernard) just can't see them -- just like Delores couldn't see New York City in the picture.