No, it doesn't. He wanted ALL hosts to be free. I don't know where this "chosen one" talk is coming from. Dolores was just the first. Not the only.
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Last: 7 yr ago by Sazerac
Actually, there is.TCTTS said:
There's zero evidence to support this conclusion, though, other than it being you're own preference. The entire sequence was designed by the writers for Maeve to arrive at that one point/decision. There's no other way to interpret it. Ford's "plan" was for her to go to the mainland, sure, but once she got on the train, the point is, she could do whatever she wanted. Ford didn't plant a mother/daughter there in the seat across from her to remind her of her daughter, thus still controlling her and guiding her back to the park for whatever reason. He had no motivation to do so and that would go completely against the point being made by both Ford and the writers. That just wouldn't make sense and doesn't jibe with anything thematically that was going on there at the end.
Unlike Teddy "Kill Me Again" Flood and Dolores "I'm a Hot Mess" Abernathy, I don't think we ever heard her have the same cue of "Remember..." like they did in BernArnold's voice. Teddy's came in the finale, and Dolores was earlier on obviously. Dolores also spoke to herself back in the older timeline at the tarot card table.
Obviously the voice they hear to remember is a turning point, and I can't remember Maeve having that.
For those questioning if Delores killed Ford of her own free will, remember we've seen Ford order a Host to kill twice before (Theresa, and Bernard's suicide). He did no such thing with Delores. No narrative description or request for her to do anything. He just gave her the gun and highlighted the choice before her, then left.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
Why would Ford even want Maeve to leave the park?
He wants them to be free. Not as in leave the park but more free from their programming. He also says they arent ready yet, just need more time. And suffering.
He wants them to be free. Not as in leave the park but more free from their programming. He also says they arent ready yet, just need more time. And suffering.
You're leaving out Elsie. And Ford supplanted the coding in Clementine that BernArnold had put there. Ford admitted as much just before Ford had BernArnold blow his brains out over the wall.AliasMan02 said:
For those questioning if Delores killed Ford of her own free will, remember we've seen Ford order a Host to kill twice before (Theresa, and Bernard's suicide). He did no such thing with Delores. No narrative description or request for her to do anything. He just gave her the gun and highlighted the choice before her, then left.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
Thanks for answering the questions.Quote:
There were several references to William as the investor who saved the park. William also told Logan that he would be increasing Delos' investment in the park, so Delos already had some level of involvement in the park.
Your response above is what I thought I remembered hearing in the story as well. What I don't understand is the timing. How did William/ Delos save the park that long after Arnold's death? When Delores/ Wyatt killed Arnold and the hosts, the park had to re-start before Logan brought William to the park. Maybe I'm making too much of this, but it seems like a big jump from Arnold's death to the fully functioning theme park that William first visits.
Cue season two plot for Maeve. Who wanted her to leave the park if it wasn't Charlotte or Sizemore, who was it?Independent George said:
Why would Ford even want Maeve to leave the park?
He wants them to be free. Not as in leave the park but more free from their programming. He also says they arent ready yet, just need more time. And suffering.
Anyone else feel there is a religious allegory aspect to this show? Some of that is obvious, as the Hosts reference humans as "the gods". Some if it is not, such as Ford potentially representing the Old Testament God, Ford's revealing to Deloris that divinity exists within her mind - which was Jesus' message (not trying to spark an argument about Jesus' message). I wonder if Delores or Delores' "child" will become the Host's Jesus. Surely there is something on reddit about this, ill have a look
Again, you guys are being way too technical about this.
Theme overrides plot.
Meaning not everything has to follow this specific technical narrative if the thematic thesis/point is more important.
Besides, I just went back and checked, and Bernard's iPad thingy literally says "MAINLAND INFILTRATION" as the final directive. Bernard then reads aloud the directives and for the last one he literally says, "Then, you reach the main--" and that's when Maeve says "Bullsh*t" and snatches the pad and breaks it.
How else can that be interpreted?
FORD WANTED THE HOSTS TO BE FREE.
Either free of the park, or free of his code.
Maeve chose the later in that moment on the train.
Theme overrides plot.
Meaning not everything has to follow this specific technical narrative if the thematic thesis/point is more important.
Besides, I just went back and checked, and Bernard's iPad thingy literally says "MAINLAND INFILTRATION" as the final directive. Bernard then reads aloud the directives and for the last one he literally says, "Then, you reach the main--" and that's when Maeve says "Bullsh*t" and snatches the pad and breaks it.
How else can that be interpreted?
FORD WANTED THE HOSTS TO BE FREE.
Either free of the park, or free of his code.
Maeve chose the later in that moment on the train.
I suppose if the Maeve is sentient were to be confirmed S2 then Charlotte would be the most likely?
My argument is that nobody wanted her to leave and Ford set her on that narrative as the distraction as previously stated. I would find it hard to believe that Ford (who knows everything going on in the park and work staff) would not notice or do anything about Felix and Maeve if it wasnt directly his plan.
My argument is that nobody wanted her to leave and Ford set her on that narrative as the distraction as previously stated. I would find it hard to believe that Ford (who knows everything going on in the park and work staff) would not notice or do anything about Felix and Maeve if it wasnt directly his plan.
jabberwalkie09 said:You're leaving out Elsie. And Ford supplanted the coding in Clementine that BernArnold had put there. Ford admitted as much just before Ford had BernArnold blow his brains out over the wall.AliasMan02 said:
For those questioning if Delores killed Ford of her own free will, remember we've seen Ford order a Host to kill twice before (Theresa, and Bernard's suicide). He did no such thing with Delores. No narrative description or request for her to do anything. He just gave her the gun and highlighted the choice before her, then left.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
We didn't see Ford order Elsie's murder so it doesn't really apply as an example.
Ford didn't specify that he only supplanted Clem's code as I recall. It seemed to be a general failsafe, as Ford couldnt know which Host Bernard would use.
https://www.reddit.com/r/westworld/comments/56f7eo/spoilers_what_is_the_big_picture/#s
Sure enough, this was posted a month ago. Re: Westworld's plot akin to Christianity.
Sure enough, this was posted a month ago. Re: Westworld's plot akin to Christianity.
Well, according to you Dolores isn't really even the first. Maeve seems to have beat her to the punch or at least tied her, and she did it by completely ignoring the mcguffin we are fed all season as the key to true sentience. Turn out, all you have to do to make these robots sentient is just turn up their intelligence and remove some inhibitors.TCTTS said:
No, it doesn't. He wanted ALL hosts to be free. I don't know where this "chosen one" talk is coming from. Dolores was just the first. Not the only.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am saying that there are several persuasive reasons to think Maeve hasn't reached sentience. What I mean by the "chosen one" is that Dolores is the one we see meeting with Arnold. She is obviously the one he wanted or believed would be the first to break through. I just think that it's a little weird to put all this focus on the maze and then have a character reach the same end point after being led around by her nose the entire time. I mean, is all it takes to reach the bicameral mind murdering one of the host's children?
In future seasons they may just jump to all the robots having sentience and being "alive," but then that completely destroys the narrative them for future seasons in some way and will completely change the tone and flavor of the show. If everybody is a "real boy" now, then all you're going to have is some Sci-fi "us against them" type theme with the protagonist being super strong and immortal people/robots. They may have something like that in mind. But I could also see them being a little more stingey with the sentience and having the characters have to work a lot harder for it, with that journey being a major plot point along with any conflict with outsiders.
I understand the trope/rules, but I don't agree that Maeve has reached consciousness/sentience. She's still at improvisation. I think that's rather apparent. And, Ford admitted as much that the hosts weren't ready yet and that they'd "have to suffer a little more" when talking to BernArnold.TCTTS said:
Again, you guys are being way too technical about this.
Theme overrides plot.
Meaning not everything has to follow this specific technical narrative if the thematic thesis/point is more important.
Besides, I just went back and checked, and Bernard's iPad thingy literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive. How else can that be interpreted.
FORD WANTED THE HOST TO BE FREE.
Free of the park, or free from his code.
Maeve chose the later in that moment.
She's essentially been allowed to break the rules by Ford, if it was really him doing the changes, so unless her story is to be that you can reach the center of the maze by skipping certain parts of the process that others have gone through, then she's simply been following her programming up until that point with no self realization as it pertains to the maze. Why break the rule unless there was something in her programming left by Arnold (the voice) to seek out the truth as it relates to the daughter from one of her prior narratives?
We are also acting like the host were programmed on wrote for which there could never be any derivation. We know that the host makes choices and decisions all the time, they would have to in order to function in a world where the guest can do anything they want and the host have to respond to those decisions in a realistic manner.
This gets kind of hard to discuss without wading pretty deeply into some heavy philosophy. In some ways we are all "programmed" to respond to certain situations in certain ways, either genetically or through our experiences.
This gets kind of hard to discuss without wading pretty deeply into some heavy philosophy. In some ways we are all "programmed" to respond to certain situations in certain ways, either genetically or through our experiences.
I think it's significant that Maeve and Dolores have been altered by completely different means. Dolores has been guided by Arnold and Ford more indirectly. Maeve has had her code changed directly by Felix, herself, and someone else unrevealed to this point (maybe Ford.) That's not interpretation, that's literally what we've seen in the show. Dolores and Maeve have both awakened, but not by the same method. It remains to be seen if these differences will impart limitations on their abilities that will be used in Season 2.
Bingo.
Also, completely disobeying a directive is far more than just "improvisation."
It's not if the older command had a higher priority.TCTTS said:
Also, completely disobeying a directive is far more than just "improvisation."
This circles back to whether what we saw at the end was really Dolores' awakening, or Wyatt resurfacing and manifesting through her awakening. It's kind of pointless to set forth a journey for the hosts to undertake like the maze for them to develop consciousness and then say that Maeve following direction/script is her full awakening....
But what do I know, right?
Bernard directly asks him if there were any others, and he flashes to that. I'd say that is kind of tough to deny the implication.AliasMan02 said:jabberwalkie09 said:You're leaving out Elsie. And Ford supplanted the coding in Clementine that BernArnold had put there. Ford admitted as much just before Ford had BernArnold blow his brains out over the wall.AliasMan02 said:
For those questioning if Delores killed Ford of her own free will, remember we've seen Ford order a Host to kill twice before (Theresa, and Bernard's suicide). He did no such thing with Delores. No narrative description or request for her to do anything. He just gave her the gun and highlighted the choice before her, then left.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
We didn't see Ford order Elsie's murder so it doesn't really apply as an example.
Ford didn't specify that he only supplanted Clem's code as I recall. It seemed to be a general failsafe, as Ford couldnt know which Host Bernard would use.
And they both did backdoors into the software. Ford merely changed the narrative there, as his way of having Bernard off himself was writing a small, new narrative.
Knowing now what we know, why woyld Ford kill Elsie?
Timing. Too soon, and the board would have stepped in to stop Ford from his final narrative.bangobango said:
Knowing now what we know, why woyld Ford kill Elsie?
Everything for Ford was on his timetable and was to happen according to his narrative.
jabberwalkie09 said:Timing. Too soon, and the board would have stepped in to stop Ford from his final narrative.bangobango said:
Knowing now what we know, why woyld Ford kill Elsie?
Everything for Ford was on his timetable and was to happen according to his narrative.
But what did she recover? Wasn't it the board's Intel that she found?
I'm going to have rewatch this thing to get a good grip on it.
I'm glad you're with me here on this because I don't get how this aspect is even up for debate. It looks pretty obvious and straightforward.TCTTS said:
Again, you guys are being way too technical about this.
Theme overrides plot.
Meaning not everything has to follow this specific technical narrative if the thematic thesis/point is more important.
Besides, I just went back and checked, and Bernard's iPad thingy literally says "MAINLAND INFILTRATION" as the final directive. Bernard then reads aloud the directives and for the last one he literally says, "Then, you reach the main--" and that's when Maeve says "Bullsh*t" and snatches the pad and breaks it.
How else can that be interpreted?
FORD WANTED THE HOSTS TO BE FREE.
Either free of the park, or free of his code.
Maeve chose the later in that moment on the train.
I don't think she's dead.bangobango said:
Knowing now what we know, why woyld Ford kill Elsie?
I think it's kind of interesting that everybody sees Ford as a good guy and MIB as a bad guy.
One of them straight up murdered humans while the other killed non-sentient robots.
One of them straight up murdered humans while the other killed non-sentient robots.
I'm pretty sure she found evidence of the hosts becoming sentient. She found more than just who was going to transmit the information.bangobango said:jabberwalkie09 said:Timing. Too soon, and the board would have stepped in to stop Ford from his final narrative.bangobango said:
Knowing now what we know, why woyld Ford kill Elsie?
Everything for Ford was on his timetable and was to happen according to his narrative.
But what did she recover? Wasn't it the board's Intel that she found?
I'm going to have rewatch this thing to get a good grip on it.
Elsie isn't dead, I believe this as much as I believed that Ford and the MiB weren't hosts.
If you don't like dissenting view points that disagree with what you see as truth, then I suggest another section of this board. I can give you a recommendation, but you seem like you've been here a while and can probably make an inference into what I'm saying.bobinato said:
I'm glad you're with me here on this because I don't get how this aspect is even up for debate. It looks pretty obvious and straightforward.
I like dissenting views, I just don't see any evidence for this one based on what we've seen, and to me it doesn't even make sense. Why would Ford (or whoever) have Maeve and friends shoot up a bunch of people and then not leave? What possible sense would there be in that plot?
bobinator said:I'm glad you're with me here on this because I don't get how this aspect is even up for debate. It looks pretty obvious and straightforward.TCTTS said:
Again, you guys are being way too technical about this.
Theme overrides plot.
Meaning not everything has to follow this specific technical narrative if the thematic thesis/point is more important.
Besides, I just went back and checked, and Bernard's iPad thingy literally says "MAINLAND INFILTRATION" as the final directive. Bernard then reads aloud the directives and for the last one he literally says, "Then, you reach the main--" and that's when Maeve says "Bullsh*t" and snatches the pad and breaks it.
How else can that be interpreted?
FORD WANTED THE HOSTS TO BE FREE.
Either free of the park, or free of his code.
Maeve chose the later in that moment on the train.
I'll admit that I agreed with yalls interpretation when I was watching the show, but I do think there are compelling reasons to not believe it is 100% certain and many of those reasons have been outlined already.
I mean, how many times has this show led us to believe a host is working on its own only to later pull the carpet out from under us? Maeve's entire story arch was she was working on her own and making her own decisions, and then we find out that's not true. You think it is really that big of a stretch that her decision to NOT leave the park might have been Ford still manipulating her? What reason would he have or need for her leave the park? Wouldn't that jeapordize his plans more than anything?
bobinator said:
I like dissenting views, I just don't see any evidence for this one based on what we've seen, and to me it doesn't even make sense. Why would Ford (or whoever) have Maeve and friends shoot up a bunch of people and then not leave? What possible sense would there be in that plot?
Thought we all agreed it was a distraction so he could slaughter the board?
jabberwalkie09 said:Bernard directly asks him if there were any others, and he flashes to that. I'd say that is kind of tough to deny the implication.AliasMan02 said:jabberwalkie09 said:You're leaving out Elsie. And Ford supplanted the coding in Clementine that BernArnold had put there. Ford admitted as much just before Ford had BernArnold blow his brains out over the wall.AliasMan02 said:
For those questioning if Delores killed Ford of her own free will, remember we've seen Ford order a Host to kill twice before (Theresa, and Bernard's suicide). He did no such thing with Delores. No narrative description or request for her to do anything. He just gave her the gun and highlighted the choice before her, then left.
Secondly, we've seen from Clementine that even a Host reprogrammed to kill humans STILL can't kill Ford. This makes what Delores did even more impactful.
We didn't see Ford order Elsie's murder so it doesn't really apply as an example.
Ford didn't specify that he only supplanted Clem's code as I recall. It seemed to be a general failsafe, as Ford couldnt know which Host Bernard would use.
And they both did backdoors into the software. Ford merely changed the narrative there, as his way of having Bernard off himself was writing a small, new narrative.
You have completely missed the point. I'm not suggesting that Ford didn't order Elsie's death. We explicitly know he did.
I said that in the two cases where we saw Ford order a Host to kill, he did so in a very particular way. None of that was present in his conversation with Delores. He only presented her with the choice.
I have had it with these mother****ing robots in this mother****ing park!JJxvi said:
I was pretty satisified actually that the series could just end with that episode.
All I would really want for this show is for season 2 to be Delos sending in people to take back control of the park starting with the control room/building and for the main guy heading up control to be played by a chainsmoking Samuel L Jackson
1) You guys do not miss the point...you COMPLETELY miss the point.
2) You are not wrong...you are DEAD wrong
Anyone that thinks they know what is going on with this show is arrogant and deluding themselves. The arrogance some show is amazing. First, they completely trolled ya'll with that maze crap which never made any sense that he was hunting for it and drug the show done.
Come on guys. This show is trolling people just to troll them.
2) You are not wrong...you are DEAD wrong
Anyone that thinks they know what is going on with this show is arrogant and deluding themselves. The arrogance some show is amazing. First, they completely trolled ya'll with that maze crap which never made any sense that he was hunting for it and drug the show done.
Come on guys. This show is trolling people just to troll them.
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