h1ag said:

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I keep wanting to call him McPoyle.

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He could cure cancer and I'll call him McPoyle. I was actually confused for a while by people calling him William.

At this point, would it be very surprising to find out that most of the staff are not humans, but robots?

so what was with the "embryo" comment the one tech made to the other? was it just a figure of speech or was it a reference to his actual birth? has technology advanced that far in this fictional future?

schmendeler said:

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so what was with the "embryo" comment the one tech made to the other? was it just a figure of speech or was it a reference to his actual birth? has technology advanced that far in this fictional future?

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I caught that too. Sounds like, in this future, that babies personalities can be determined while in the womb and if it isn't optimal, the baby can be aborted.

Jesus, the conversation between tMiB and Ford was excellent. That's two excellent conversations with Ford and two characters. I'm pretty much convinced that the villain isn't so much tMiB as he sees himself being, but rather Ford. Ford has something hidden in the maze IMO, and I think I'm not alone in thinking that it relates to Arnold's death.

It's pretty obvious that Dolores is the key to the maze, and tMiB obviously knows this. The question though, is what is at the center of it. Is it Dolores herself and her full awakening? Is it something as it relates to Arnold's death and how Dolores played into it?

Also, the laser sat link... How the hell did that end up in that host's arm?

What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

Me too.

easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

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He had taken a bird from inside the park that he'd found dead, and was using his free time to write code that would bring it back online. He's been hired as someone in the "Body Shop" but he wants to get promoted to the Behavior Division.

It's similar to in my field, where people in Q&A often use their free time to learn to code, in hopes of getting a promotion.

The other tech was giving him **** though, and apparently stealing even a little bird bot for your own pet project is frowned upon.

easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

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It showed that he has the ability to program / code at least on some level.....and Maeve is about to use him to most likely change her code / behavior.

I agree this episode pretty much confirms the two storylines -- the town William/Delores went to last night was totally different than the one the MiB dragged Lawerence to a couple of episodes ago. That town just seemed like a regular border town while last night's town was basically Sodom and Gomorrah. It also seemed like Lawerence's character was completely different, meaning the storylines had changed over the years with Lawerence taking over some new role.

So the rest of the season will most likely go down that William / Delores keep on their quest and discover the maze some how.....but some other event takes place ("We haven't had an incident in 30 years" line from the first episode regarding the hosts) that keeps them from reaching it. Delores gets wiped clean, and we get the MiB coming back 30 years later to finish it. The only question I have is why it would take 30 years for him to finally be getting close again.

easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

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VERY early theory on that. But it seemed to me that the Asian "butcher" is also likely a host. The moments where he's having those similar flashbacks and same loop feelings as some of the hosts that we've seen almost seems to reveal that. Also, his dialogue with the other butcher after being caught working on that bird, that guy tells him he's "never going to be anything other than a butcher" - this is interesting because it could be our first look into another host breaking out of their loop and creating their own unique motives. This would be significant on many levels because not only would it be another host breaking out of his loop and seeking change, but it would begin to reveal that many of the employees in "management" are indeed hosts themselves.

I think this is where that's going (especially with Maeve being there) because I think as we draw close to the end of this season, most every character is going to begin to "question the nature of their reality."

I can tell you right now, the scene where one of these characters whom we think (and the character itself thinks) is human begins to discover they're no different than the hosts they work on every day... will be very interesting.

I was thinking the nitroglycerin in the bodies was showing self awareness of the fact the dead and damaged are taken to the lab, and the hosts were going to attempt to blow up the lab. That maybe that was the 30 year ago incident, and that a lot of reprogramming happened after that event. Arnold wanted to destroy the place and maybe he was using "lawrence" to do that. But I haven't been watching the episodes super closely, and definitely not rewatching them for missed details. I didn't want to, but I've started falling into the trap of guessing what is going on rather than just watching it unfold.

Putting the nitro in the body was a way to make a bomb and nothing more.

Boomer becoming self aware will be a turning point

I can't believe Lawrence is the dbag from The Stoned Age and the gay assassin in Traffic. Hard to take him seriously.

These aren't talls! [/MiB]

Just an aside. I don't know if it's been mentioned but the guy who wrote the episode before last and is an executive producer on the show, is the same guy who wrote the Captain America: Winter Soldier comics.
Ed Brubaker

Ranger222 said:

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easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

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It showed that he has the ability to program / code at least on some level.....and Maeve is about to use him to most likely change her code / behavior.

I agree this episode pretty much confirms the two storylines -- the town William/Delores went to last night was totally different than the one the MiB dragged Lawerence to a couple of episodes ago. That town just seemed like a regular border town while last night's town was basically Sodom and Gomorrah. It also seemed like Lawerence's character was completely different, meaning the storylines had changed over the years with Lawerence taking over some new role.

So the rest of the season will most likely go down that William / Delores keep on their quest and discover the maze some how.....but some other event takes place ("We haven't had an incident in 30 years" line from the first episode regarding the hosts) that keeps them from reaching it. Delores gets wiped clean, and we get the MiB coming back 30 years later to finish it. The only question I have is why it would take 30 years for him to finally be getting close again.

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Yep. MIB has discussed knowing Laurence in another life and spending a lot of time with him.

Then, in this episode, conversation between Logan and William and Logan says the park has been hemorrhaging money since it opened. That makes me think it's pretty early to the park's opening and not thirty years down the road.

Also, MIB tells Ford something to the effect of the park only survived because of him, which again makes me think MIB is William or Logan and he somehow thwarts Dolores finding the center of the maze at the last second. OR, that Willam and/or Logan invest heavily in the park and keep it from going bankrupt.

People keep going back to the 30 year timeline for the park but Delores said she last was contacted by Arnold 34 years ago. We know from Ford that they can cure all disease so I don't think we can assume anyones age. Wild Bill was one of the first Hosts but he could be 60 years old.

Really enjoying this show so far. On the idea that many of the lab workers are hosts... Could be that the Delos Corp. started using hosts in the labs to save money. In this episode we had 2 references to the poor financial shape of the park (Logan saying the park is hemorrhaging money and the MiB telling Teddy he was changed to save money).

This would serve the idea that we're dealing with 2 timelines. In the older (William) timeline it is understood that the park is losing lots of money, so in the current / future timeline (MiB) Delos has replaced human workers with hosts to save money.

Just a random thought.

Ranger222 said:

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easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

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It showed that he has the ability to program / code at least on some level.....and Maeve is about to use him to most likely change her code / behavior.

I agree this episode pretty much confirms the two storylines -- the town William/Delores went to last night was totally different than the one the MiB dragged Lawerence to a couple of episodes ago. That town just seemed like a regular border town while last night's town was basically Sodom and Gomorrah. It also seemed like Lawerence's character was completely different, meaning the storylines had changed over the years with Lawerence taking over some new role.

So the rest of the season will most likely go down that William / Delores keep on their quest and discover the maze some how.....but some other event takes place ("We haven't had an incident in 30 years" line from the first episode regarding the hosts) that keeps them from reaching it. Delores gets wiped clean, and we get the MiB coming back 30 years later to finish it. The only question I have is why it would take 30 years for him to finally be getting close again.

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Again, thematically this perspective makes no sense.

1. The show has already told you that while Lawrence had a home and a wife, that isn't where he spent his time, so simply having a holdout and a true home doesn't prove two timelines. And his "cousins" in the first town, seem a lot like his posse referenced in the second. So, I don't really see that his story has changed.

2. The whole point of this show is what the greeter host said in the second show, "If you can't tell, what difference does it make?" As the park has progressed, they've created hosts that more and more resemble actual humans. How do you impact your guests, make them feel consequences or at least gravitas for their actions when they're untouchable. Simple - you make the hosts feel like real people so when you kill, rape, or whatever else to each of them, you get the thrill (or revolt in William's case) of actually killing someone. The robots from 30 years ago... not so much. They weren't real, it was obvious they weren't real, and so no one cared about what happened to them. Throughout the show, they've referenced how the old robots broke the illusion.

Now let's look at William, he's completely fallen for Delores, become wrapped up in her story, and wants to protect her. That's the evolution of the hosts that park management has been striving for, that you get the sense comes from the reveries, etc. All the while, those same reveries, which we believe are happening in present day so to speak (the behavior team talking to Maeve, Clementine, etc.), are causing Delores to lose her mind. It just doesn't make sense for that to be the 30 year old incident unless the reveries storyline is also 30 years old.

3. If William and the MiB are the same person, what is the character arc? He's gone from white hat to self-stylized park villain in search of the deeper meaning of the place? From what we've seen thus far, there just isn't a motivation for that to occur. Maybe they'll reveal something moving forward that makes him become evil, but thus far, nothing has really been hinted at that shows him moving toward this arc. He's pretty much rejected what Westworld stands for. So, in order to get sucked him, something bad would have to happen to him moving forward, but that's just pure speculation. It doesn't at all fit with his character right now, who's primary role seems to be the the viewer's conscience.



The only way this alternate timeline story makes sense is if William's story is happening 30 years after the park incident in which Arnold killed himself, at the same time, that's when Ford is having his conversations with Bernard, when the reveries are implemented, etc. and when Maeve is becoming self-aware. Then 30 years after that, the MIB (William is around) completing the story you see from Maeve. So, all of the other storylines are happening with William, and the MIB is the only one set 30 years later. Then of course, Ford not aging doesn't make sense, nor would there appear to be any real point to this reveal other than to say, the MIB was William all along, gotcha! I hope they don't go that route.

Sepinwall believes that this episode confirms the two timelines theory, and he doesn't like it:

Quote:

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So, just to refresh: the theory is that William and Logan's scenes take place 30 years in the past, and that William will age into becoming the Man in Black. Previous episodes have offered some evidence in support of the theory, some evidence against it (primarily that Dolores runs into William in the desert right after what appears to be an incident where she flashes on a memory of the Man in Black raping her), and the ambiguity of the robots' time-looped behavior to complicate matters.

After "Contrapasso," I feel more confident than ever that this is what's happening.

And I'm less happy about it than ever.

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Quote:

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Let's start with the new evidence. As William and Logan enter the bandit town of Pariah, Logan talks about Arnold's death and the park's financial woes as if they are very recent occurrences, and suggests their company could keep the place afloat if they up their investment; later, the Man in Black tells Ford that Arnold's death almost brought the park down with him "Almost, but not quite, thanks to me." And when William and Logan finally get to meet Slim's infamous boss, it's none other than Lawrence, who admittedly is available to be placed back into circulation now that the Man has killed him to use his blood to revive Teddy, but who appears to be part of a very different storyline from the one where we met him, in the same way that Maeve was once a mom on the frontier, and other hosts have had their roles switched. It's not impossible that this is all happening in the same timeline the prison guards from last week's episode, after all, know of Lawrence as a dangerous criminal in need of immediate execution but it's increasingly hard not to see this as the plan.

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Quote:

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And Dolores, who is the show's most sympathetic and interesting character, goes through a huge burst of character growth this week as she learns how to change the role she's playing without benefit of rewrite from Dr. Ford or anyone else back at headquarters. Ordinarily, this would be a thrilling development, since until now she had been trapped in the same sadistic loop, largely oblivious to her own victimization. The idea that she could go from damsel to gunslinger, and also that she is secretly working for someone else perhaps a bit of code left in her by the late Arnold? or whomever planted the transmitter inside the woodcutter? should be exciting. But if her swap of wardrobe and identity is happening decades in the past, then that means that we're not watching her go on a journey where she genuinely, irrevocably grows and becomes stronger, but one that will eventually be halted and reversed until she's back to being the doomed girl in the blue dress. There's a tragedy to that, obviously as with so many parts of the series, reflective of Memento and the way that Leonard's condition made it impossible for him to truly learn or change but one that, as with twist-based storytelling itself, becomes harder to take from many hours spread out over many weeks, as opposed to watching a film in one sitting, where it's especially cruel on a show that already has more than its fair share of that emotion.

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OldArmy71 said:

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Sepinwall believes that this episode confirms the two timelines theory, and he doesn't like it:

Quote:

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So, just to refresh: the theory is that William and Logan's scenes take place 30 years in the past, and that William will age into becoming the Man in Black. Previous episodes have offered some evidence in support of the theory, some evidence against it (primarily that Dolores runs into William in the desert right after what appears to be an incident where she flashes on a memory of the Man in Black raping her), and the ambiguity of the robots' time-looped behavior to complicate matters.

After "Contrapasso," I feel more confident than ever that this is what's happening.

And I'm less happy about it than ever.

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Quote:

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Let's start with the new evidence. As William and Logan enter the bandit town of Pariah, Logan talks about Arnold's death and the park's financial woes as if they are very recent occurrences, and suggests their company could keep the place afloat if they up their investment; later, the Man in Black tells Ford that Arnold's death almost brought the park down with him "Almost, but not quite, thanks to me." And when William and Logan finally get to meet Slim's infamous boss, it's none other than Lawrence, who admittedly is available to be placed back into circulation now that the Man has killed him to use his blood to revive Teddy, but who appears to be part of a very different storyline from the one where we met him, in the same way that Maeve was once a mom on the frontier, and other hosts have had their roles switched. It's not impossible that this is all happening in the same timeline the prison guards from last week's episode, after all, know of Lawrence as a dangerous criminal in need of immediate execution but it's increasingly hard not to see this as the plan.

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Quote:

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And Dolores, who is the show's most sympathetic and interesting character, goes through a huge burst of character growth this week as she learns how to change the role she's playing without benefit of rewrite from Dr. Ford or anyone else back at headquarters. Ordinarily, this would be a thrilling development, since until now she had been trapped in the same sadistic loop, largely oblivious to her own victimization. The idea that she could go from damsel to gunslinger, and also that she is secretly working for someone else perhaps a bit of code left in her by the late Arnold? or whomever planted the transmitter inside the woodcutter? should be exciting. But if her swap of wardrobe and identity is happening decades in the past, then that means that we're not watching her go on a journey where she genuinely, irrevocably grows and becomes stronger, but one that will eventually be halted and reversed until she's back to being the doomed girl in the blue dress. There's a tragedy to that, obviously as with so many parts of the series, reflective of Memento and the way that Leonard's condition made it impossible for him to truly learn or change but one that, as with twist-based storytelling itself, becomes harder to take from many hours spread out over many weeks, as opposed to watching a film in one sitting, where it's especially cruel on a show that already has more than its fair share of that emotion.

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Man, Sepinwall is stealing stuff I already said on this thread.

john32f said:

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Ranger222 said:

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easttexasaggie04 said:

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What was the point of the Asian guy and the bird? I felt like I was missing the point.

---

It showed that he has the ability to program / code at least on some level.....and Maeve is about to use him to most likely change her code / behavior.

I agree this episode pretty much confirms the two storylines -- the town William/Delores went to last night was totally different than the one the MiB dragged Lawerence to a couple of episodes ago. That town just seemed like a regular border town while last night's town was basically Sodom and Gomorrah. It also seemed like Lawerence's character was completely different, meaning the storylines had changed over the years with Lawerence taking over some new role.

So the rest of the season will most likely go down that William / Delores keep on their quest and discover the maze some how.....but some other event takes place ("We haven't had an incident in 30 years" line from the first episode regarding the hosts) that keeps them from reaching it. Delores gets wiped clean, and we get the MiB coming back 30 years later to finish it. The only question I have is why it would take 30 years for him to finally be getting close again.

---

Again, thematically this perspective makes no sense.

1. The show has already told you that while Lawrence had a home and a wife, that isn't where he spent his time, so simply having a holdout and a true home doesn't prove two timelines. And his "cousins" in the first town, seem a lot like his posse referenced in the second. So, I don't really see that his story has changed.

2. The whole point of this show is what the greeter host said in the second show, "If you can't tell, what difference does it make?" As the park has progressed, they've created hosts that more and more resemble actual humans. How do you impact your guests, make them feel consequences or at least gravitas for their actions when they're untouchable. Simple - you make the hosts feel like real people so when you kill, rape, or whatever else to each of them, you get the thrill (or revolt in William's case) of actually killing someone. The robots from 30 years ago... not so much. They weren't real, it was obvious they weren't real, and so no one cared about what happened to them. Throughout the show, they've referenced how the old robots broke the illusion.

Now let's look at William, he's completely fallen for Delores, become wrapped up in her story, and wants to protect her. That's the evolution of the hosts that park management has been striving for, that you get the sense comes from the reveries, etc. All the while, those same reveries, which we believe are happening in present day so to speak (the behavior team talking to Maeve, Clementine, etc.), are causing Delores to lose her mind. It just doesn't make sense for that to be the 30 year old incident unless the reveries storyline is also 30 years old.

3. If William and the MiB are the same person, what is the character arc? He's gone from white hat to self-stylized park villain in search of the deeper meaning of the place? From what we've seen thus far, there just isn't a motivation for that to occur. Maybe they'll reveal something moving forward that makes him become evil, but thus far, nothing has really been hinted at that shows him moving toward this arc. He's pretty much rejected what Westworld stands for. So, in order to get sucked him, something bad would have to happen to him moving forward, but that's just pure speculation. It doesn't at all fit with his character right now, who's primary role seems to be the the viewer's conscience.



The only way this alternate timeline story makes sense is if William's story is happening 30 years after the park incident in which Arnold killed himself, at the same time, that's when Ford is having his conversations with Bernard, when the reveries are implemented, etc. and when Maeve is becoming self-aware. Then 30 years after that, the MIB (William is around) completing the story you see from Maeve. So, all of the other storylines are happening with William, and the MIB is the only one set 30 years later. Then of course, Ford not aging doesn't make sense, nor would there appear to be any real point to this reveal other than to say, the MIB was William all along, gotcha! I hope they don't go that route.

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My pulled out of my butt theory on William's turn to the darkside is Dolores at some point gets her memory wiped and no longer knows who William is. The heartbreak/trauma of it all makes Williams turn bad.

Or, Dolores goes back to being a robot permanently stuck in her little loop and William spends the next thirty years trying to knock her back out of her loop like the first time he met her. Tries to make her imagine not being the damsel in distress again by putting her in terrible situations that make her stand up for herself.

Isnt that basically what I said like ten pages ago?

bobinator said:

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I don't get why people have decided what the themes/morals/etc of the show should be. Maybe let the show finish telling its story first?

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Yep.

The more I think about it the more I am convinced William becomes the MiB. Whatever his reasoning ends of being will be told in time. At this point though it seems obvious.

If this show is telling a story I wish it would move it along. They are beating this "they are having groundhog day" over and over again to death.

The complaint I have with HBO series is they establish a plot line and then abandon it OR stay with it too long. And this soft porn is distracting. If I wanted to see a naked person I would go to pornhub and see the real thing.

The best I can determine is Ed Harris is after something that exists and the only person that knows of it is Anthony Hopkins and Hopkins is going to stop him. They have already established Hopkins is ruthless so I do not know why he does not just have him killed.

dlance:

My other option is to do what I want. I think I will chose that one. But thanks for the advice. I am glad you are out there for me.

ce1994 said:

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The best I can determine is Ed Harris is after something that exists and the only person that knows of it is Anthony Hopkins and Hopkins is going to stop him. They have already established Hopkins is ruthless so I do not know why he does not just have him killed.

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What would be the point of that? The idea is to develop a plot and provide a storyline. Killing off the Man in Black would leave no reason to have a show.

In pointing out they are beating the point to death is valid. It is not my saying I do not like the show. It is moving along at a pretty good pace and the sets are amazing. It is one of the better shows on television. You come to expect that from HBO. They are spending a mint on it and it shows. The acting is fantastic. I wish they would have Hopkins in it more but when he is in it the dialogue is electric. Hopkins is sinister.

If you would forward me a script of what you want me to say then forward it to me and I will do that after next Sunday's show. I would not want you to invade Poland because I am stating my opinion on a show.

I do not think Ed Harris is the main antagonist. I think it is Hopkins. Ed Harris can't get to him. The machines are programmed to protect him. Hopkins is in complete control right now.

Hopkins is using Harris right now IMO.