AliasMan02 said:PooDoo said:
With VR you aren't sharing a sexdoll with the rest of the park guests.
Virtually every major tourist destination in the world actively and legally offers prostitutes to guests, which is way grosser.
Donald? Is that you?
*** WESTWORLD Season 1 (HBO) ***
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Donald? Is that you?
MW03 said:
That scene with Dr. Ford on the plantation was intense
An employee once tried to test me. I ate his liver with some fava beans and a nice Chianti.
Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:I'm very confused with all this talk of different timelines on this thread. There has been absolutely no indication on this show that each event is not taking place in semi-concurrent fashion. The security portion of Westworld even discusses in this episode how Delores is off her path while hanging out with Logan and William. Where are you people getting these theories?amercer said:
Everyone is in the same timeline?
Except maybe Logan and William who are in the future? Or is Logan the board member?
Oh and maybe Bernard is a robot after all--and maybe his boss knows EVERYTHING he is doing...
It's still technically possible, if say, it's a different time Delores went off loop, and maybe if all the control room folks are hosts so it just looks like they are interacting with the same guests in the same time period. At this point though I think they'd have to waste a whole episode explaining the timeline thing, so I've gone from skeptical to dissbilief in that theory.
Instead, what if everyone we see is contemporaneous, and the MIB is Logans father?
There's definitely a connection between the storylines, whether it's William=MIB, or just family ties. Imo.
I actually think there's slightly more evidence for a multiple timeline theory after this last episode with Maeve's "pictures in the floor." It makes it seem like even though we think she's becoming aware of the outside world for the first time, that she's actually become aware several times before. Potentially as has Dolores. (And potentially, Bernard. I do agree that he's probably a host, despite the fact that I don't particularly care for it, and I wonder if he was the first host to be "set free" and now he's hopeful another one can do it so he's sort of encouraging Delores.)
But again, Dolores seemed to be slipping between timelines. She has "flashbacks" but then the scenes around her change slightly when she comes to like the girl disappearing off the well.
I'd say there's actually more evidence for at least some sort of multiple timeline theory than there is against it.
But again, Dolores seemed to be slipping between timelines. She has "flashbacks" but then the scenes around her change slightly when she comes to like the girl disappearing off the well.
I'd say there's actually more evidence for at least some sort of multiple timeline theory than there is against it.
At this point, I'm not sure that those "timelines" aren't just closed loops being remembered evidenced by flashbacks.
Why couldn't all of these things just be planted memories? I liked the "multiple timeline" theories early on but now I think Dolores is having all of these images/flashbacks planted in her, probably with the last update to the code they have been talking about since the 1st episode. Same with Maeve. Maybe all of the "chats" that she and Bernard have allow her to access these planted memories? Telling her about the maze and then now she is recalling memories about the girl and maze? This seems simpler in the end then revealing to the casual viewer later on that multiple timelines have been occurring throughout this season and we hope you caught it and are able to parse through it.
If Bernard is a host, the question arises of whether he KNOWS he is a host. He certainly believes he has an ex-wife and a son who was lost, but if he is a host, those are implanted memories.Quote:
(And potentially, Bernard. I do agree that he's probably a host, despite the fact that I don't particularly care for it, and I wonder if he was the first host to be "set free" and now he's hopeful another one can do it so he's sort of encouraging Delores.)
Did we all notice that Dolores' monologue about grief is almost exactly what Bernard said to his "wife"? He seems surprised at the depth and lyricism of what she said--"Very pretty--did we write that for you?" he says.
So does that conversation with Dolores happen in a different timeline from when HE says that speech to his wife? He seems not to recognize the speech as one he himself spoke at some point.
The speech does suggest that he is a host, and his philosophizing is something that has been implanted in him.
(in response to Ranger...)
Because some of the things that happen are changes in the physical world. She is talking to the girl, has an episode, and then the girl isn't there. She set the gun on the dresser, looked in the mirror, and the gun was gone. It's happened a few times already.
Unless we can't trust our own angle on the show, which would be frustrating also, those are changes in the physical world that can't be explained unless they're at separate times right?
Explaining it all down the road won't be all that hard I don't think, but we'll see.
Because some of the things that happen are changes in the physical world. She is talking to the girl, has an episode, and then the girl isn't there. She set the gun on the dresser, looked in the mirror, and the gun was gone. It's happened a few times already.
Unless we can't trust our own angle on the show, which would be frustrating also, those are changes in the physical world that can't be explained unless they're at separate times right?
Explaining it all down the road won't be all that hard I don't think, but we'll see.
I don't buy multiple timelines. I also think it's just flashbacks to previous experiences.
If they have seasons planned for this as I saw somebody earlier reference, then they are going to have to really expand the cast and the universe the show is contained in. Although I do like the idea that the good guy visitor is the early version of the MIB (To have him be the wild and evil brother in law is too simple), I think by necessity they have to incorporate more storylines than just the MIB and his maze obsession. That makes me think the white hat and black hat guys are a separate group from MIB.
If they have seasons planned for this as I saw somebody earlier reference, then they are going to have to really expand the cast and the universe the show is contained in. Although I do like the idea that the good guy visitor is the early version of the MIB (To have him be the wild and evil brother in law is too simple), I think by necessity they have to incorporate more storylines than just the MIB and his maze obsession. That makes me think the white hat and black hat guys are a separate group from MIB.
bobinator said:
(in response to Ranger...)
Because some of the things that happen are changes in the physical world. She is talking to the girl, has an episode, and then the girl isn't there. She set the gun on the dresser, looked in the mirror, and the gun was gone. It's happened a few times already.
Unless we can't trust our own angle on the show, which would be frustrating also, those are changes in the physical world that can't be explained unless they're at separate times right?
Explaining it all down the road won't be all that hard I don't think, but we'll see.
Can that not be flashbacks to another loop when she put the gun in the dresser?
That entire sequence confused the hell out of me. I need to rewatch it, but the theory I have right now is that what we saw was different attempts by Dolores to hide the gun to save herself. Each location failed until she hid it in the hay loft and successfully killed the guy.
Bernard being a host is going to annoy me, but it seems inevitable right? Like you said, the duality of his talking to his wife and Dolores talking to him about grief, and the weird exchange at the end of his conversation with Ford last week make it seem almost certain.
But he definitely doesn't know he's one, or at least we haven't been shown that he knows he's one. But then again, how would you find out if you didn't know to begin with. Like say they "freed" him from the park but wiped his memory and gave him a new backstory as a park employee, how would you ever know the difference unless there was a glitch.
But he definitely doesn't know he's one, or at least we haven't been shown that he knows he's one. But then again, how would you find out if you didn't know to begin with. Like say they "freed" him from the park but wiped his memory and gave him a new backstory as a park employee, how would you ever know the difference unless there was a glitch.
Stealing/hiding the gun is much easier to explain than the girl on the well.
Delores isn't supposed to go to that town. The girl gave the clue to the MIB, so if she isn't there with Delores and William, then she is from the past, so does that make the MIB from the past? Yet we do see the control room people seemingly watching both the MIB and Delores at the same time.
Also the memory Delores has while talking to well girl is about Fords church town, which we assumed he was just working on building. Is that church steeple in the desert actually the only thing that remains of an old story? Perhaps the story where the natives got thier religion?
Delores isn't supposed to go to that town. The girl gave the clue to the MIB, so if she isn't there with Delores and William, then she is from the past, so does that make the MIB from the past? Yet we do see the control room people seemingly watching both the MIB and Delores at the same time.
Also the memory Delores has while talking to well girl is about Fords church town, which we assumed he was just working on building. Is that church steeple in the desert actually the only thing that remains of an old story? Perhaps the story where the natives got thier religion?
She didn't hide it in the hay loft, she pulled it off the guy when he threw her. He looks down and notices his gun is gone.
So big over-arcing theory here, but I think we're going to see Dolores with William try to "find the maze" or whatever and get killed and then wake up and not remember anything at the end of this season, but William will know, or believe, that Dolores was more than just a regular host and it will be the reason he keeps coming back to the park for so long and becoming the MiB. Always looking for a deeper meaning again that he knows is there. Something along those lines is what I think season 1 has in store.
So big over-arcing theory here, but I think we're going to see Dolores with William try to "find the maze" or whatever and get killed and then wake up and not remember anything at the end of this season, but William will know, or believe, that Dolores was more than just a regular host and it will be the reason he keeps coming back to the park for so long and becoming the MiB. Always looking for a deeper meaning again that he knows is there. Something along those lines is what I think season 1 has in store.
This is on Reddit, but one of the flashbacks involved Dolores digging up her own grave... WHAT DOES IT MEEEAAAAAN
I did go back and rewatch that scene in the hayloft and I don't think it's conclusive at all that she pulled it from his belt. He does look down, but that is literally the only clue. It looks like her hands are empty and that she reaches into the hay to pull the gun out.bobinator said:
She didn't hide it in the hay loft, she pulled it off the guy when he threw her. He looks down and notices his gun is gone.
So big over-arcing theory here, but I think we're going to see Dolores with William try to "find the maze" or whatever and get killed and then wake up and not remember anything at the end of this season, but William will know, or believe, that Dolores was more than just a regular host and it will be the reason he keeps coming back to the park for so long and becoming the MiB. Always looking for a deeper meaning again that he knows is there. Something along those lines is what I think season 1 has in store.
I do like your theory, though, and can see that happening. When they first introduced William I thought he would take a heel turn, but I thought it would be a quick one or two episode story arch. Now it's looking like he's going to be a regular on the show and that would be a cool way to give the MIB back story.
I think she did hide it in the hay loft from a previous time she stole it from the villain. He recognizes it as his gun, so he looks down at his holster. But it certainly looked like she got it out of the hay and was somewhat surprised to find it there...not like she just stole it from the villain. This was talked about a few pages ago, and someone went into more detail about it.
I kinda hope it's not multiple timelines at this point. Just seems too messy to clear up. Your theory of William being the MIB does make sense though.
I kinda hope it's not multiple timelines at this point. Just seems too messy to clear up. Your theory of William being the MIB does make sense though.
That's interesting.bobinator said:
This is on Reddit, but one of the flashbacks involved Dolores digging up her own grave... WHAT DOES IT MEEEAAAAAN
does anybody have a link to video or pics of that hayloft scene?
I really love everything about this show. I was a little worried after Spinwall wasn't too high on it and I thought maybe it would E4 that was the let down since they were given the first 4 eps.
Really excited to see where they take it.
I watched TWD after WW this week and it wasn't really fair to TWD. The acting, production, writing...well, everything is just so much better on WW. Thank God for HBO.
Really excited to see where they take it.
I watched TWD after WW this week and it wasn't really fair to TWD. The acting, production, writing...well, everything is just so much better on WW. Thank God for HBO.
I've rewatched it and it seems purposely vague as to whether or not the gun is already there or if she pulled it.
Does anybody else think the female boss is getting more attractive?
She reminds me of Xena.easttexasaggie04 said:
Does anybody else think the female boss is getting more attractive?
I'm still struggling to not see Liam McPoyle.
I really liked this episode from a "behind the scenes at Disney World" standpoint. The MIB getting his explosives approved, them calling an audible when they noticed guests had joined Hector this time and jamming weapons, Dr. Ford playing god on the plantation, them introducing the Samaritan reflex, etc.
I thought it was a pretty fascinating look at the park itself.
I thought it was a pretty fascinating look at the park itself.
Agreed, though I don't watch TWD. HBO vs cable is just not fair. I can't think of one basic cable show that competes with HBO in those categories, except maybe Breaking Bad. (As far as acting and writing, probably not production value.)LHIOB said:
I really love everything about this show. I was a little worried after Spinwall wasn't too high on it and I thought maybe it would E4 that was the let down since they were given the first 4 eps.
Really excited to see where they take it.
I watched TWD after WW this week and it wasn't really fair to TWD. The acting, production, writing...well, everything is just so much better on WW. Thank God for HBO.
Maybe LOST?
Same here. Great episode.MW03 said:
I really liked this episode from a "behind the scenes at Disney World" standpoint. The MIB getting his explosives approved, them calling an audible when they noticed guests had joined Hector this time and jamming weapons, Dr. Ford playing god on the plantation, them introducing the Samaritan reflex, etc.
I thought it was a pretty fascinating look at the park itself.
Fargo is pretty outstanding. Acting is up there with the best and the stories are fantastic.
Here is an interesting article from the Washington Post. The thesis is that insofar as we experience the show as a puzzle to be solved, we are experiencing it incorrectly, on an intellectual rather than on an emotional level. The author laments that the audience is failing to connect to the larger dimensions suggested by the story--the "what does it mean to be human" dimension.
I agree with the article. As was suggested earlier in this thread, the whole idea of such a theme park is repulsive. It is not like a video game at all, because the digital bits of information that explode in a video game do not feel what happens to them.
In the park, the hosts feel pleasure, but also pain, guilt, grief, isolation, and fear. When a guest shoots them or tortures them, they feel it, even if only for the short duration of a particular loop.
That the hosts are tormented, if only for a short duration, is terrible enough. That, after all, is the human condition--to become aware of and experience suffering, and, in the blink of an eye, to disappear forever.
Worse, though, is that the hosts are condemned to lives of being reborn into the same hellish world. As the MIB complains, no one in the park can really die. Now, he is of course referring to the lack of real risk that the guests experience. But on another level, his words describe all the hosts, too, who suffer but cannot be released from their suffering in death.
And then the hosts who are developing self-awareness are the worst off of all, because they have become aware of their eternal torment.
I agree with the article. As was suggested earlier in this thread, the whole idea of such a theme park is repulsive. It is not like a video game at all, because the digital bits of information that explode in a video game do not feel what happens to them.
In the park, the hosts feel pleasure, but also pain, guilt, grief, isolation, and fear. When a guest shoots them or tortures them, they feel it, even if only for the short duration of a particular loop.
That the hosts are tormented, if only for a short duration, is terrible enough. That, after all, is the human condition--to become aware of and experience suffering, and, in the blink of an eye, to disappear forever.
Worse, though, is that the hosts are condemned to lives of being reborn into the same hellish world. As the MIB complains, no one in the park can really die. Now, he is of course referring to the lack of real risk that the guests experience. But on another level, his words describe all the hosts, too, who suffer but cannot be released from their suffering in death.
And then the hosts who are developing self-awareness are the worst off of all, because they have become aware of their eternal torment.
I thought Fargo got a little purposely weird last season. I loved the first season but the second season didn't draw me in that much.LHIOB said:
Fargo is pretty outstanding. Acting is up there with the best and the stories are fantastic.
I actually mentioned this a few pages back, because it's a fascinating part of the show. I actually think this would be more of the conversation if this show were on Netflix or something and we could stream the entire season. Because we have to wait a week in between episodes, we're hungry to guess where the show could be going instead of analyzing the characters within it. In part, probably, because we want the time we spend thinking about the show to be worth it in the end. If we could just click to the next episode, the mechanics of the plot wouldn't be all that important because they're going to be sorted out in the coming hours instead of the next two months.
The fact that they reset each day doesn't make it any less awful what's happening to them. This is going to be an extreme example, but it's like assaulting someone with Alzheimer's or something that isn't going to remember it. It doesn't make what you did any less horrible.
That is, of course, if they have a consciousness. But do they? At this point of the show, it's hard to say what's a programmed reaction, and what is genuine feeling. Is there something inside the hosts that is genuinely afraid of dying each day? It's a fascinating question and one I hope the show continues to explore, because after the plot unfurls itself, these will be the more interesting questions.
The fact that they reset each day doesn't make it any less awful what's happening to them. This is going to be an extreme example, but it's like assaulting someone with Alzheimer's or something that isn't going to remember it. It doesn't make what you did any less horrible.
That is, of course, if they have a consciousness. But do they? At this point of the show, it's hard to say what's a programmed reaction, and what is genuine feeling. Is there something inside the hosts that is genuinely afraid of dying each day? It's a fascinating question and one I hope the show continues to explore, because after the plot unfurls itself, these will be the more interesting questions.
OldArmy71 said:
Here is an interesting article from the Washington Post. The thesis is that insofar as we experience the show as a puzzle to be solved, we are experiencing it incorrectly, on an intellectual rather than on an emotional level. The author laments that the audience is failing to connect to the larger dimensions suggested by the story--the "what does it mean to be human" dimension.
I agree with the article. As was suggested earlier in this thread, the whole idea of such a theme park is repulsive. It is not like a video game at all, because the digital bits of information that explode in a video game do not feel what happens to them.
In the park, the hosts feel pleasure, but also pain, guilt, grief, isolation, and fear. When a guest shoots them or tortures them, they feel it, even if only for the short duration of a particular loop.
That the hosts are tormented, if only for a short duration, is terrible enough. That, after all, is the human condition--to become aware of and experience suffering, and, in the blink of an eye, to disappear forever.
Worse, though, is that the hosts are condemned to lives of being reborn into the same hellish world. As the MIB complains, no one in the park can really die. Now, he is of course referring to the lack of real risk that the guests experience. But on another level, his words describe all the hosts, too, who suffer but cannot be released from their suffering in death.
And then the hosts who are developing self-awareness are the worst off of all, because they have become aware of their eternal torment.
I didn't read the article, but I think most people get the whole "I think therefore I am" aspect of the show. I mean, that was prominent from episode one. But if that's all you have them that's a two hour movie, not a multiyear TV show. I was actually pretty neutral on this show when i thought that was going to be primarily what it was about. You need a McGuffin to drive things. The philosophy 101 can't sustain ten episodes a year (or whatever they're shooting for). Adding the Maze quest has significantly increased my interest in the show because it gives it layers beyond just "at what point are you real," which is a theme that has been explored since before Geppetto carved out Pinocchio.
Excellent point. When Ford approaches the host whose nakedness has been covered by one of the workers, he says that the hosts feel only what they are programmed to feel, and cuts the host's face with no response. So it's hard to tell if they truly feel.Quote:
That is, of course, if they have a consciousness. But do they? At this point of the show, it's hard to say what's a programmed reaction, and what is genuine feeling.
And unfortunately such is the nature of feeling right? There's no way we'll ever know for sure if they're truly feeling or if it's a programmed reaction. And that, again, is part of the question. If we can't tell the difference, does that matter? Like if you can't tell if the robot your shooting is genuinely afraid for its life or just pretending it's afraid, then does that change how your actions are interpreted?
That's going to be one of the overarcing themes of this show, because there's no way for them to show us if they're really feeling or not.
That's going to be one of the overarcing themes of this show, because there's no way for them to show us if they're really feeling or not.
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