So in your mind he and Sterling were attacking midfielders in a 3-2-3-2? Thats a hell of a formation.
* Official World Cup 2022 Thread *
196,928 Views |
2611 Replies |
Last: 4 mo ago by TRM
JJxvi said:
No complaints about Pulisic being played at wingback?
If Chelsea is going to play 3 in the back I think he and Sterling are going to be asked to play a lot of wingback. But if both are given the freedom to come up and be a part of the attack then it is a good position for him.
They were pushed way up and sure looked like it was mainly a 3 at the back with the 2 central guys coveringJJxvi said:
So in your mind he and Sterling were attacking midfielders in a 3-2-3-2? Thats a hell of a formation.
Most of the time sterling and pulisic were both just way up
Now, maybe wingbacks can do that too, i dunno
JJxvi said:
So in your mind he and Sterling were attacking midfielders in a 3-2-3-2? Thats a hell of a formation.
You should watch, they were very much involved in the attack.
Being involved in the attack doesn't change the fact that the position they played was wingback, which is both an attacking and defensive position, and also can be more of either one or the other in varying degrees. Here's some data from Chelsea vs Salzburg and then an earlier game vs Milan. The formations aren't exactly the same, but Pulisic and Reece James played the same position in these two games, look into the images that show where their defensive actions are occurring and where they are passing from, etc.
It's also the same position Azpilicueta played vs Man United at the weekend. Obviously Azpi will be somewhat more defensive, Pulisic will be more attacking, and James will give you more all around, but it's still wingback.
Passing networks, individual player passes and defensive actions for Chelsea. Match date: 2022-10-25. #ChelseaFC pic.twitter.com/kykMxcLYyU
— McLachBot (@mclachbot) October 25, 2022
Passing networks, individual player passes and defensive actions for Chelsea. Match date: 2022-10-11. #ChelseaFC pic.twitter.com/BwOaLH8Jit
— McLachBot (@mclachbot) October 11, 2022
It's also the same position Azpilicueta played vs Man United at the weekend. Obviously Azpi will be somewhat more defensive, Pulisic will be more attacking, and James will give you more all around, but it's still wingback.
Passing networks, individual player passes and defensive actions for Chelsea. Match date: 2022-10-22. #ChelseaFC pic.twitter.com/ElkC7l9lfp
— McLachBot (@mclachbot) October 22, 2022
I'm very tired. Summarize please?
Yes, he played wingback a position that has defensive responsibilities. On the Salzburg goal Pulisic was hauling butt back to try and prevent a wing from making a cross but didn't get there, and wing made a beautiful cross.
Should we be upset Pulisic is being asked to play defense some, maybe expanding his game? What do you want us to be upset about?
I did watch the game, and Pulisic was very involved in the offense while also tracking back. Perhaps it was because Salzburg was set up for the counterattack and there was not a lot of threat of wide possession by them?
Should we be upset Pulisic is being asked to play defense some, maybe expanding his game? What do you want us to be upset about?
I did watch the game, and Pulisic was very involved in the offense while also tracking back. Perhaps it was because Salzburg was set up for the counterattack and there was not a lot of threat of wide possession by them?
I don't want anybody to be upset, I was just asking…the conversation really only kept going because of weirdly brazen claims that he wasn't playing that position. I don't disagree with anything you're saying, except your previous post which seemed to imply that if I had watched the game, that I might believe Chelsea really was some kind of a 3-2-3-2.
Yeah. I worded that poorly.
I feel you. I got pushback when I observed Tyler Adams playing as a middle CB (albeit much more like an old school sweeper than a proper CB). It only happened twice ever at Leipzig, and both were against sub-par competition when they could afford to rest starters and tinker, but it was a real thing. And as someone who watches most Leipzig games, it was insulting to see folks who didn't watch the game write it off as him just dropping deep while playing as a DM (which was also a big part of this game, but absolutely not what happened on these two occasions).
And of course a guy playing out of position is going to play the position differently… that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And of course a guy playing out of position is going to play the position differently… that doesn't mean it didn't happen.
And to your original question - I think versatility is a great thing. Even if it only happens a couple times, it gives the player a different perspective on the game, and IMO that can only be a good thing.
I do think if players are asked to play in different roles too often it can be a negative thing, but when used sparingly, I think it's great
And in Pulisic's case right now, anything that gets him playing time is a win in my book.
I do think if players are asked to play in different roles too often it can be a negative thing, but when used sparingly, I think it's great
And in Pulisic's case right now, anything that gets him playing time is a win in my book.
Teams also play different 'formations' based on if they have the ball or don't.
I'm just not aware of wingbacks having freedom to roam the pitch, to the point where he was overloading the same side of the field as Sterling at times.
It's probably a pointless discussion, and it goes back to people really have to watch the game to truly get a feel for how someone played.
We have created useful statistics, and they are still improving, but they should only be used to tell part of the story. They will never be enough on their own, and shouldnt be used as such.
I'm just not aware of wingbacks having freedom to roam the pitch, to the point where he was overloading the same side of the field as Sterling at times.
It's probably a pointless discussion, and it goes back to people really have to watch the game to truly get a feel for how someone played.
We have created useful statistics, and they are still improving, but they should only be used to tell part of the story. They will never be enough on their own, and shouldnt be used as such.
I think our national team should be all about finding Pulisic in space, and then ensuring we have players moving off the ball to interact with him.
Personally, I think that means we shouldn't be playing the MMA midfield as it doesnt offer enough going forward.
Things would be a lot simpler if we could have been reliably starting Reyna this whole time, and have figured out how best to deploy him and who with.
Personally, I think that means we shouldn't be playing the MMA midfield as it doesnt offer enough going forward.
Things would be a lot simpler if we could have been reliably starting Reyna this whole time, and have figured out how best to deploy him and who with.
It looks like Gallagher was nominally the attacking midfielder, but he actually did a lot of work covering on the right in a similar way that Kovacic was doing on the left. The forwards and the passing network also lean towards the left. It looks like Chelsea mainly was trying to overload that side and leave Pulisic on his own to attack in the space created on the other side. Something they commonly do with James
Red Bull played like a 4-4-2 diamond with 4 more central midfielders, so their fullbacks were the only true wide players they were going with also, so Sterling and Pulisic, as long as Chelsea had the ball were going to be keeping them pinned back and be involved in the attack.
Red Bull played like a 4-4-2 diamond with 4 more central midfielders, so their fullbacks were the only true wide players they were going with also, so Sterling and Pulisic, as long as Chelsea had the ball were going to be keeping them pinned back and be involved in the attack.
who is more of the 10 in the MMA - Musah or McKennie? or are they both more 8's and we don't really have an attacking central midfielder in the system? Because Aaronson or Reyna or Pulisic could be quite effective as a 10 instead of on the wing. Hell, since we don't have bonafide #9, a Haaland or even an Altidore isn't coming in the next month, we could use two 10s or a 10 and false 9 up front. a 4-4-2 where those two up top are strong wingers rather than #9s - like Sargent and Hoppe or Weah. Even someone with wheels like Morris. That allows you to put CP10 or Reyna centrally and get them some through balls and diagonal balls going to goal centrally rather than on the edges or in the corners.
Yeah, our roster is full of hybrid attacking players that don't fit the typical positional alignments. I keep hoping that Adams or McKennie will develop into a true distributor, and they may still yet, but that's the big roster gap I see holding us back. Obviously we don't have a true striker either, but I think we could do well without one if we had someone able to pick out a critical attacking pass with more regularity.
I still wonder if Reyna isn't our best potential CAM. We're not lacking for talent on the wings and I want he, Pulisic, and Aaronson on the field.
so is it Musah in the MMA that you bench?
I have an easier time benching whoever we've been trying at 9 - Pepi or Ferreira. Just so we can keep important defending central midfielders like all three of MMA out there, but still have three of our most talented wingers on the field at once... just use CP10 or Reyna as a CAM in a 4-4-2 diamond or as a false 9 in a 4-3-3.. which, at the end of the day, is more or less semantics. Can we score goals without a true #9 on the pitch? Well, we can't really score goals with one, so why not try? Reyna and CP are creative attacking players even though not powerful back to the goal strikers.
I have an easier time benching whoever we've been trying at 9 - Pepi or Ferreira. Just so we can keep important defending central midfielders like all three of MMA out there, but still have three of our most talented wingers on the field at once... just use CP10 or Reyna as a CAM in a 4-4-2 diamond or as a false 9 in a 4-3-3.. which, at the end of the day, is more or less semantics. Can we score goals without a true #9 on the pitch? Well, we can't really score goals with one, so why not try? Reyna and CP are creative attacking players even though not powerful back to the goal strikers.
Pomykal would fit that role perfectly.jeffk said:
Yeah, our roster is full of hybrid attacking players that don't fit the typical positional alignments. I keep hoping that Adams or McKennie will develop into a true distributor, and they may still yet, but that's the big roster gap I see holding us back. Obviously we don't have a true striker either, but I think we could do well without one if we had someone able to pick out a critical attacking pass with more regularity.
I'm with you. The 9 is our weakest link, so we should've stopped trying. I've been pounding this for awhile. Having a crappy 9 out there means a high-quality AM/winger gets left on the bench. It doesn't make sense. At least try something different to get your best attacking players out there at the same time. Might not work, but what we're currently doing isn't either, so why not try?
But that said, I think the ship has sailed. I simply don't trust ggg to make effective changes now if he hasn't bothered to experiment with a false 9 in friendlies that don't matter. It probably isn't the right time to try doing it. Then again, that might make for a very effective surprise if we can pull it off.
But that said, I think the ship has sailed. I simply don't trust ggg to make effective changes now if he hasn't bothered to experiment with a false 9 in friendlies that don't matter. It probably isn't the right time to try doing it. Then again, that might make for a very effective surprise if we can pull it off.
he finally had a healthy year, and when you watch the games its so obvious the impact he makes anytime you watch them play without him.Ken Scarborough said:Pomykal would fit that role perfectly.jeffk said:
Yeah, our roster is full of hybrid attacking players that don't fit the typical positional alignments. I keep hoping that Adams or McKennie will develop into a true distributor, and they may still yet, but that's the big roster gap I see holding us back. Obviously we don't have a true striker either, but I think we could do well without one if we had someone able to pick out a critical attacking pass with more regularity.
Players like him, and Adams and others, its hard to really evaluate without watching. Not every position is easily summed up with goals/assists. Often times your midfielders in those spots are making the key breakup, or are instantly seeing the pass to set up your more advanced playmakers. Making that pass in that moment, vs taking 2-3 seconds to see it and then make it, can be the difference between a goal opportunity and the attack bogging down.
Someone asked earlier, but at this point I am taking McKennie off before Musah. Personally, I think Gregg opts to play too conservatively and never has enough attacking players in the lineup.
*All of our players are still very early in their careers, and will hopefully continue to develop their weakpoints in their games.
Yeah, I like what Pomykal brings to the table! It would have been great to see him in action with the NT in one of the friendlies earlier this year, but alas...
He definitely missed his chance under Ggg, but i'm thinking with the new coach after we flop tremendously in the WC that he'll have a shot for 2026.jeffk said:
Yeah, I like what Pomykal brings to the table! It would have been great to see him in action with the NT in one of the friendlies earlier this year, but alas...
Not even in the camp in Frisco.
I'd be pretty open to this, Musah is another guy I really want on the pitch. When you do the math there's a good 3-4 midfielders I want to see playing ahead of any of the 9s we're bringing along.
First formal, organized protest by players of the conditions in Qatar.
A message from the Socceroos. pic.twitter.com/Sd2R6ej8kK
— Socceroos (@Socceroos) October 26, 2022
The only people in frisco are people that are going to the WC, or might go.Ken Scarborough said:He definitely missed his chance under Ggg, but i'm thinking with the new coach after we flop tremendously in the WC that he'll have a shot for 2026.jeffk said:
Yeah, I like what Pomykal brings to the table! It would have been great to see him in action with the NT in one of the friendlies earlier this year, but alas...
Not even in the camp in Frisco.
He also had picked up a hamstring knock in the playoffs, so I imagine he would rather rest than potentially injure it playing in a practice camp
Milwaukees Best Light
Joined:
Nov 1, 2007
Posts:
17,492
How long do you want to ignore this user?
AG
Pretty well done.
Kind of have this sinking feeling that some messed up things will happen at this World Cup
Maybe that always happens every world cup though, and its just not wideely reeported on
Maybe that always happens every world cup though, and its just not wideely reeported on
It was well said and I commend them but I can't help but watch that and ask...and????
Not because what they say isn't important. But it's not new. Maybe new in that it comes from a collection of players who are going to be competing in Qatar. And they are the first, that I'm aware of, to make any collective comment. But it's just that...a comment. A comment that speaks to some of the inconvenient truths but clearly also tries to placate and commend FIFA and Qatar to a degree as well. They are trying to toe the line...and I completely understand why they are and don't necessarily fault them for doing so...but they are definitely toeing it.
At the end of the day, it's kind of more of the same just from a team of players. Fans, media, some of the decision makers...and now players, we all know that this WC is highly problematic for a number of reasons and none of us are actually going to do anything impactful about it. A token percentage of fans may not watch but most will. Ticket sales don't seem to be affected. Media will still cover it and cover it largely without discussing the Qatar things we all know about but don't want to do anything about. More players may make comments like the Aussies did but that's not going to have an affect on either the fans watching, the ones attending, or the media reporting.
At the end of the day, FIFA bet that they could host a WC in Russia and Qatar and fill their bank accounts up without any real negative consequences. And they were right.
Not because what they say isn't important. But it's not new. Maybe new in that it comes from a collection of players who are going to be competing in Qatar. And they are the first, that I'm aware of, to make any collective comment. But it's just that...a comment. A comment that speaks to some of the inconvenient truths but clearly also tries to placate and commend FIFA and Qatar to a degree as well. They are trying to toe the line...and I completely understand why they are and don't necessarily fault them for doing so...but they are definitely toeing it.
At the end of the day, it's kind of more of the same just from a team of players. Fans, media, some of the decision makers...and now players, we all know that this WC is highly problematic for a number of reasons and none of us are actually going to do anything impactful about it. A token percentage of fans may not watch but most will. Ticket sales don't seem to be affected. Media will still cover it and cover it largely without discussing the Qatar things we all know about but don't want to do anything about. More players may make comments like the Aussies did but that's not going to have an affect on either the fans watching, the ones attending, or the media reporting.
At the end of the day, FIFA bet that they could host a WC in Russia and Qatar and fill their bank accounts up without any real negative consequences. And they were right.
I tend to feel the same way, but on a positive note, what it does accomplish is keeping the heat on for the 2030 selection process.
I'd like to think that behind closed doors, there are lots of organizations that have told FIFA this is the last time they can pull this BS.
I'd like to think that behind closed doors, there are lots of organizations that have told FIFA this is the last time they can pull this BS.
Yeah, I don't disagree. I do think the players themselves are worried about being seen as supporting the Qatari regime and the decision to give them the cup. So speaking out publicly gives them at least a small modicum of separation from those abuses. Which I totally get. They're there to do a job and represent their own home nations - not prop up a repressive govt and a corrupt organization.
As to what their actions truly accomplish? Idk, it might influence future tournament bid processes and selections. It keeps pressure on the govt to behave during the WC itself. It's a preemptive strike in a way that keeps the Qataris from being too heavy-handed In how they respond to players and teams who do something during the matches. We'll see I guess.
As to what their actions truly accomplish? Idk, it might influence future tournament bid processes and selections. It keeps pressure on the govt to behave during the WC itself. It's a preemptive strike in a way that keeps the Qataris from being too heavy-handed In how they respond to players and teams who do something during the matches. We'll see I guess.
Dre_00 said:
It was well said and I commend them but I can't help but watch that and ask...and????
Not because what they say isn't important. But it's not new. Maybe new in that it comes from a collection of players who are going to be competing in Qatar. And they are the first, that I'm aware of, to make any collective comment. But it's just that...a comment. A comment that speaks to some of the inconvenient truths but clearly also tries to placate and commend FIFA and Qatar to a degree as well. They are trying to toe the line...and I completely understand why they are and don't necessarily fault them for doing so...but they are definitely toeing it.
At the end of the day, it's kind of more of the same just from a team of players. Fans, media, some of the decision makers...and now players, we all know that this WC is highly problematic for a number of reasons and none of us are actually going to do anything impactful about it. A token percentage of fans may not watch but most will. Ticket sales don't seem to be affected. Media will still cover it and cover it largely without discussing the Qatar things we all know about but don't want to do anything about. More players may make comments like the Aussies did but that's not going to have an affect on either the fans watching, the ones attending, or the media reporting.
At the end of the day, FIFA bet that they could host a WC in Russia and Qatar and fill their bank accounts up without any real negative consequences. And they were right.
I agree. I told my wife yesterday about the Aussie's video and her immediate take was, " But they're still going right, so what does it matter?"
I guess we'll see. I hope you're right but I'm not terribly optimistic. There was ample time for confederations and national federations to form some sort of resistance/ultimatum towards FIFA after the Justice Department and fall out at FIFA over the Russia and Qatar bids. I feel like of sustained pressure from a dozen or so key federations could have forced some real change (like a change of host nation) from for 2022. But they, along with everyone else, more or less did nothing because they are enriched either directly or indirectly through FIFA's shenanigans.
The only time I can remember a massive, powerful group in football reversing course is the whole ESL debacle. And that only came through massive and instantaneous fan revolt across virtually every football club that was meant to be a part of it. I think the only way anything FIFA did would get reversed is massive fan revolt across major national federations. Which is highly unlikely.
The only time I can remember a massive, powerful group in football reversing course is the whole ESL debacle. And that only came through massive and instantaneous fan revolt across virtually every football club that was meant to be a part of it. I think the only way anything FIFA did would get reversed is massive fan revolt across major national federations. Which is highly unlikely.
Exactly, it's just jerk off virtue signaling. Like all virtue signaling, they said some things, but didn't really do a damn thing, but they think they did something important.ChipFTAC01 said:Dre_00 said:
It was well said and I commend them but I can't help but watch that and ask...and????
Not because what they say isn't important. But it's not new. Maybe new in that it comes from a collection of players who are going to be competing in Qatar. And they are the first, that I'm aware of, to make any collective comment. But it's just that...a comment. A comment that speaks to some of the inconvenient truths but clearly also tries to placate and commend FIFA and Qatar to a degree as well. They are trying to toe the line...and I completely understand why they are and don't necessarily fault them for doing so...but they are definitely toeing it.
At the end of the day, it's kind of more of the same just from a team of players. Fans, media, some of the decision makers...and now players, we all know that this WC is highly problematic for a number of reasons and none of us are actually going to do anything impactful about it. A token percentage of fans may not watch but most will. Ticket sales don't seem to be affected. Media will still cover it and cover it largely without discussing the Qatar things we all know about but don't want to do anything about. More players may make comments like the Aussies did but that's not going to have an affect on either the fans watching, the ones attending, or the media reporting.
At the end of the day, FIFA bet that they could host a WC in Russia and Qatar and fill their bank accounts up without any real negative consequences. And they were right.
I agree. I told my wife yesterday about the Aussie's video and her immediate take was, " But they're still going right, so what does it matter?"
This is gonna make as much difference as all those leftist, liberals that are (still) wearing masks alone in their cars.
Hey socceroos, how'd you like your covid internment camps!? /f16