A "backdoor" into the code would still be changing the code itself. Remember that Bernard hands over the tablet to Ford so Ford can unlock his memories. Ford uses the tablet to "backdoor" in Clem's code. He's still changing the code, which is what we see of Maeve's.

bobinator said:

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I'm saying his own death wasn't part of any narrative.

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Well, I can't help you with the events on the screen smacking you in the face, with what would likely be the equivalent of a 2x4, when he plainly sits down in a chair waiting for Dolores under the Wyatt narrative to shoot him in the head.

bobinator said:

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A "backdoor" into the code would still be changing the code itself. Remember that Bernard hands over the tablet to Ford so Ford can unlock his memories. Ford uses the tablet to "backdoor" in Clem's code. He's still changing the code, which is what we see of Maeve's.

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Eh, that doesn't really make any sense. Why would he need a backdoor in that situation? They didn't talk about Bernard locking the code did they? I took it to mean he could set directives that underlay the main directives to all the robots. Seems kind of foolish of Bernard to hand over the ipad if it was at all possible for Ford to change things once he got it.

TCTTS said:

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I'm legit confused where you guys are getting this from.

Again, Bernard's iPad thing literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive of Maeve's mission. How else can that be interpreted? It CLEARLY goes against your argument that "Maeve was supposed to get off the train, no choice of hers." Really, I'm honestly asking - how is it "clear" that she was "supposed" to get off the train?

And yes, Ford OBVIOUSLY wants her to leave the park, and if murdering tons of people is how it has to happen, so be it. I mean, we've literally seen Ford endorse and initiate murder to protect his narrative - a narrative that specifically entails the hosts uprising against the humans.

I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I legitimately don't get where some of these interpretations and conclusions are coming from.

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If they can make the hosts see or not see certain things like Bernard wasn't able to originally see in that picture for instance, how can we take anything that hosts see at face value?

Bernard and other hosts cannot see certain things, ergo there must be code on that pad that they cant see, Solid. Carve it in the rock.

Again, it's not "the wyatt narrative." It's the music. The music overrides literally everything else in Dolores' code. Ford says that Wyatt was a character they were working on for a narrative, why would they make a character that can kill guests? It doesn't make any sense.

And, to prove my point, we see Dolores go "Wyatt" in the final on the Man in Black, even dislocating his shoulder or breaking his arm or whatever she did, and she still can't shoot him in the head at close range.

bobinator said:

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JJxvi said:

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So because Ford had control of Clementine, ergo Maeve was programmed to get off the train. Solid. Carve it in the rock.

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Yeah, this is sort of what I'm talking about. With any TV show or movie you can theorize your way into almost anything crazy you want. Give me an hour and I could probably come up with a theory as to why Family Matters takes place on another planet that you couldn't directly disprove.

It's just that for Maeve to get on the train, get off the train, and for that to be someone's plan; overlaid onto what Ford is saying; and in concert with everything else going on, doesn't make any narrative sense.

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I understand what you are saying and normally I would agree, but we are not talking about something completely unprecedented in this show. They've literally spent the entire season showing us over and over again that things are not what they seem when it comes to the robots and free will. It's not crazy like saying Family Matters takes place on another planet, it's literally a trope the show has used dozens of times throughout the season and even used in the very same episode by showing us Maeve, whose every action appeared to be of her own free will, was really following her programming.

If they hadn't shown that ipad then none of you would be this sure of your conclusion, and as I've already pointed out, the ipad is persuasive, but I'm not sure how conclusive we can actually consider what it shows us.

He mentioned changing her settings so that only he could control her. I took that to mean that he "locked out" Ford somehow from changing her code, but Ford obviously has other ways of accessing the code, a "backdoor" in.

bobinator said:

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Again, it's not "the wyatt narrative." It's the music. The music overrides literally everything else in Dolores' code. Ford says that Wyatt was a character they were working on for a narrative, why would they make a character that can kill guests? It doesn't make any sense.

And, to prove my point, we see Dolores go "Wyatt" in the final on the Man in Black, even dislocating his shoulder or breaking his arm or whatever she did, and she still can't shoot him in the head at close range.

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Why would music override her code? I'm curious where you are getting this from? Did they say that in the show at some point?

As dangerous as a program that lets her shoot humans would be, wouldn't a random song letting her kill humans be equally as dangerous if not more so?

We agree that Ford sent her on that path and obviously doesnt care and maybe wants people to get murdered but why does he want her to leave the park? To start the uprising by herself??

He wants her back in the park to finish her maze journey along with the rest of the hosts.

bangobango said:

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bobinator said:

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Again, it's not "the wyatt narrative." It's the music. The music overrides literally everything else in Dolores' code. Ford says that Wyatt was a character they were working on for a narrative, why would they make a character that can kill guests? It doesn't make any sense.

And, to prove my point, we see Dolores go "Wyatt" in the final on the Man in Black, even dislocating his shoulder or breaking his arm or whatever she did, and she still can't shoot him in the head at close range.

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Why would music override her code? I'm curious where you are getting this from? Did they say that in the show at some point?

As dangerous as a program that lets her shoot humans would be, wouldn't a random song letting her kill humans be equally as dangerous if not more so?

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Out of curiosity, do you think that Arnold played music just to make it "cool?"

Let's talk Maeve being awake....

Maybe this is a dumb question, but if Maeve was following her programming, and that programming was telling her to go "infiltrate the mainland" then what exactly was being exported? Certainly not a sentient host. If anything, it was her sentience that prevented her from "infiltrating the mainland." So did someone just want a host out in the world that could be controlled for some purpose? Doesn't seem like Ford's MO.

Also, let's talk for a minute about cornerstone memories. Arnold's son actually died, right? Ford said that Arnold's grief made him adopt Delores as his surrogate daughter and drove him to wanting consciousness for the hosts. Ford then said that the grief he suffered at Arnold's death was the memory that drove him to wanting the same. Ford gave Bernard Arnold's cornerstone memory, and ultimately it was him rejecting it that made him realize he was a robot. It seems like then that the cornerstone memory has to be unique to the person/host for it to have any effect on a being's development.

Now, on the subject of Maeve, she seemingly rejected her cornerstone memory when talking with Felix in the elevator because she understood that the girl wasn't her real daughter. However, the suffering she felt at the loss of the child, hers or otherwise, was an actual event that happened in the park, or real suffering. It was her memory of that event that became her cornerstone, not the loss of an actual daughter but the pain of losing who she believed was her daughter. That became clear to her on the train looking at the mother, and whether the child was biologically hers was of no consequence any longer. That's why she was able to break code.

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Other items of note re: cornerstone memories.

Teddy's cornerstone seems to be killing the town with Delores and the fear associated with not understanding, then being murdered by Delores.

Interestingly, William's cornerstone that "woke him" certainly seems to be the suffering associated with confronting Delores as a robot with a wiped mind when he finally found her in town.

What is Delores' cornerstone?

There's a difference between something happening during the season, and it being the end result of the season though. We knew pretty quickly that someone had made it so Maeve could wake up, the other tech told us that way back. So the question was always, to what end?

What I'm saying is that, in this case, which is the only case, we directly see the code and what she's supposed to do, and she willingly doesn't do it. We haven't seen that before.

bobinator said:

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Again, it's not "the wyatt narrative." It's the music. The music overrides literally everything else in Dolores' code. Ford says that Wyatt was a character they were working on for a narrative, why would they make a character that can kill guests? It doesn't make any sense.

And, to prove my point, we see Dolores go "Wyatt" in the final on the Man in Black, even dislocating his shoulder or breaking his arm or whatever she did, and she still can't shoot him in the head at close range.

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*sigh*

Look, I said Wyatt isn't a person as much as it is an actual narrative. The cue is the music to carry on the narrative. It's not an override. It's a cue. A cue to carry out a specific act. It's all part of the script. Arnold sitting down and waiting for Dolores to carry out that portion of the narrative was part of the script.

Your point doesn't prove if anything. Dolores had fully reached the center yet by that time. She was damn close, and elements of the old narrative were resurfacing, I'll agree to that, but she had not yet reached the point at which she would carry out an act beyond her programming. Like assuming her act of shooting Ford was not scripted, but something done of her own volition.

bangobango said:

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bobinator said:

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Again, it's not "the wyatt narrative." It's the music. The music overrides literally everything else in Dolores' code. Ford says that Wyatt was a character they were working on for a narrative, why would they make a character that can kill guests? It doesn't make any sense.

And, to prove my point, we see Dolores go "Wyatt" in the final on the Man in Black, even dislocating his shoulder or breaking his arm or whatever she did, and she still can't shoot him in the head at close range.

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Why would music override her code? I'm curious where you are getting this from? Did they say that in the show at some point?

As dangerous as a program that lets her shoot humans would be, wouldn't a random song letting her kill humans be equally as dangerous if not more so?

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It would be if it were random, but obviously it's something that Arnold programmed into her. And yes, using music as an override is something we saw earlier in the season if I recall correctly.

He would also do it as an "override" and not in her code so that if Ford tried to bring her back she wouldn't still be able to kill humans.

Independent George said:

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We agree that Ford sent her on that path and obviously doesnt care and maybe wants people to get murdered but why does he want her to leave the park? To start the uprising by herself??

He wants her back in the park to finish her maze journey along with the rest of the hosts.

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Again, then why put her on the train?

bobinator said:

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Independent George said:

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We agree that Ford sent her on that path and obviously doesnt care and maybe wants people to get murdered but why does he want her to leave the park? To start the uprising by herself??

He wants her back in the park to finish her maze journey along with the rest of the hosts.

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Again, then why put her on the train?

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Goes right along with Fords whole ending speeches. Ford: "I want the hosts to be free" (Maeve gets on train/also a perfect distraction for the massacre) Ford: "The hosts arent ready yet but they are close" (Maeve gets off train, goes to park to be with the rest of the hosts that may or may not band together and fight back)

bobinator said:

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He would also do it as an "override" and not in her code so that if Ford tried to bring her back she wouldn't still be able to kill humans.

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So, then she was sentient at that time and it was her choice to kill Arnold?

How in the world could it not be a part of her code unless she did it though her own free will?

And how can you hold that idea or theory and completely dismiss Maeve not being sentient when she gets off the train?

bobinator said:

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Independent George said:

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We agree that Ford sent her on that path and obviously doesnt care and maybe wants people to get murdered but why does he want her to leave the park? To start the uprising by herself??

He wants her back in the park to finish her maze journey along with the rest of the hosts.

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Again, then why put her on the train?

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Again, why have her do anything? Why even bother with the escape narrative at all and just tell her to go shoot everybody?

Are these the three stages of Arnold's pyramid?

Memory > Improvisation > Self Interest

And if so, what was Ford's fourth stage? Empathy?

I'm not even sure what you're arguing anymore? Why would Arnold write an entire narrative (which isn't his thing by the way, it's Ford that writes the narratives...) that ends with a murder of an entire town and his own death? What would be the point? Why would it be part of the "Wyatt narrative" before the park is even open, to be able to kill a human in the middle of the town square?

Using music as cues for the hosts to start doing what they are doing is so basic and force fed to us the audience in how the show was presented to us, that it would be shocking to miss it.

No, what I'm saying is that that song overrides her code and makes her do something that Arnold programmed her to do, which was shoot him, overriding her core code that doesn't allow her to hurt humans.

By making it a musical cue that only works while the song is playing, he makes it so that she can't go on to hurt other humans.

JJxvi said:

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Using music as cues for the hosts to start doing what they are doing is so basic and force fed to us the audience in how the show was presented to us, that it would be shocking to miss it.

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Uh, like when?

I know the same songs cues up every time Hector rides into town. Not sure when else that happens. Certainly don't think the music has anything to do with Hector coming into town, though, that seems kind of dumb to think that since they specifically show us him coming to town early when MIB helps him escape.

bobinator said:

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He would also do it as an "override" and not in her code so that if Ford tried to bring her back she wouldn't still be able to kill humans.

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OK, this makes no sense. An override would have to be in the code to work at all. The music could be a cue or password of sorts, but actual code would need to be in there to counteract the code in place that keep her from killing guests in the first place.

You can't just have an override that is carried out without first coding it in AFAIK. This is almost like holodecks in Star Trek that require you to enter a password/command phrase that allows you to turn off safety protocols. The ability to turn off the safe guards are there, but you have to have a password to do so.

bangobango said:

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bobinator said:

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Independent George said:

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We agree that Ford sent her on that path and obviously doesnt care and maybe wants people to get murdered but why does he want her to leave the park? To start the uprising by herself??

He wants her back in the park to finish her maze journey along with the rest of the hosts.

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Again, then why put her on the train?

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Again, why have her do anything? Why even bother with the escape narrative at all and just tell her to go shoot everybody?

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Because it wasn't a "narrative." In the code, Ford (or whoever) actually wanted her to escape. She chose not to. They set up an entire series of events so that they could get Maeve "to the mainland" and then she chose not to go through with it.

This is the whole thing. Ford was obviously planning on Dolores becoming sentient, he wasn't planning on it for Maeve.

bobinator said:

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No, what I'm saying is that that song overrides her code and makes her do something that Arnold programmed her to do, which was shoot him, overriding her core code that doesn't allow her to hurt humans.

By making it a musical cue that only works while the song is playing, he makes it so that she can't go on to hurt other humans.

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But that's not correct. By making it a musically cue he makes it where she can do it every time the music cues up.

Again, why do it any differently than Ford did with Bernard?

Again, what was "infiltrating the mainland" if Maeve got of the train under orders and was still following her programming?

Someone:
- Gave her the ability to wake herself up
- Programmed her to recruit others
- Programmed her to try and escape
- Intended for her to make it to the mainland

That's not sentience. That's a host that's someone's personal project.

Also, why would Ford be orchestrating this if he was simultaneously developing a way for the hosts to gain consciousness via the "Delores Method" inside the park?

I'm starting to think someone else we haven't met yet was using Maeve, and it was only when she confronted her cornerstone suffering that she fully woke up and listened to her own voice telling her "It doesn't matter if it wasn't your child. You loved her. Go and get her."

You watched that whole season and didnt once notice that the first thing to happen at the start of a day in the Mariposa saloon was that the piano started playing? And the showrunners used that pretty much every time, that they had us (the audience) start over at the beginning of a loop (like dolores waking up, etc)?

It's obviously in the code. We're talking about two different codes here.

I mean it overrides her "core code" which is what doesn't allow her to hurt humans. As in Isaac Asimov's "three laws" that are used in movies and sci fi stuff all the time.

"A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm. A robot must obey orders given it by human beings except where such orders would conflict with the First Law. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law."

The actual "hear music, kill Arnold" would be built into her programming code, and allow her to override the core code.

And I think it's Ford that says to Bernard that Arnold liked using music early in the park, but I can't remember the exact scene.

JJxvi said:

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You watched that whole season and didnt once notice that the first thing to happen at the start of a day in the Mariposa saloon was that the piano started playing? And the showrunners used that pretty much every time, that they had us (the audience) start over at the beginning of a loop (like dolores waking up, etc)?

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That's a far stretch to go from there to saying the music controlled the robots. Much more likely that was a cue for the audience to understand that a new loop was beginning.

Why would they have these expensive ass robots that can do all this other crap only operate when they heard music. They can program these things to do anything they want remotely, but you think the entire park is being controlled by the piano in Sweetwater? Carve it in stone, I guess.

Was there music playing other than the score when Delores shot Ford? I know Arnold supped up the phonograph, but was there something going on other than a strings arrangement of Radiohead's Exit Music when the actual killing happened? Or did someone play music for her in the field repair room before leaving her there alone to have a talk with herself?

Admittedly, I like the idea of a musical cue like some kind of Manchurian Candidate deal, but I'm struggling to remember the scenes well enough to know if anyone here is arguing that the characters could actually hear the score as opposed to the player piano or the phonograph.