You can go back on this thread and look, but I talked about the maze being a state of mind or true sentience several weeks ago (whenever Teddy had his little monologue on what the maze was with MIB).ce1994 said:
Well, the "c" stands for "civil" and the "e" stand for "engineering". Try not to go there. I am pretty technical. And that maze thing was a cheap stunt.
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Ford also apparently see things as clearly as Arnold himself.TCTTS said:
Ford literally said that suffering is the key.
Suffering is how Ford saw them progressing. I think it's fair to say that Arnold saw a different path, and tired to avert the suffering by not opening the park.
I honestly don't understand how anyone could interpret any of this differently. TexAgs is the only place I've come across so far where any of this is even a question.
I agree that it certainly seems that way when you're watching, but this entire season has been LOLJUSTKIDDING as far as Dolores's journey.bobinator said:
That's the other thing, I posted that earlier. It was part of this big dramatic series of cut scenes with Ford's voice talking about the hosts making their own choices and becoming their own people.
If it's like LOLJUSTKIDDING on the first episode next season, that's going to piss off basically everyone.
Hell, I still remember debating whether or not William was MIB and I was saying he wasn't because then it would make the all the scenes we were watching with Dolores and William and Dolores's supposed "self-discovery" completely pointless. They managed to write their way out of that, but it was a concern I had voiced at the time. Same could happen here, in my opinion.
I honestly don't understand why you are being so condescending on this topic. Just about everybody involved has acknowledged that there is room for interpretation both ways except for you.TCTTS said:
I honestly don't understand how anyone could interpret any of this differently. TexAgs is the only place I've come across so far where any of this is even a question.
"Room for interpretation" is exactly what I'm arguing against.
It does, because Felix and the other guy had no idea that she was being manipulated until they dug deeper. And BernArnold didn't know about Arnold's theory until Ford revealed it to him. Without knowing how it's all setup, basically for the hosts to be able to have a moment of self-realization.bobinato said:
It obviously matters for the plot, I just mean it doesn't matter in the sense of Maeve's sentience. It doesn't really matter who programmed her to go to the mainland, she didn't do it.
"Wyatt" did not kill Arnold. Arnold used the Wyatt programming to have Dolores kill all of the other hosts.
He then used the musical cue to have her override her core code and kill him and herself.
The final point is exactly what I'm saying. Meave is remembering, she is following the same steps as Dolores, we just don't literally hear and see it because we don't have to. We're supposed to understand that's what's happening because we've already seen it with Dolores.
Like I said, Wyatt isn't so much a person but a narrative which culminated in Arnold being shot by Dolores with the Wyatt narrative loaded in. And the code, regardless of any signal, was obviously still there that allowed her to do that.
Remembering does not mean she has awakened yet. Yes, she knows what she is but she hasn't reached true sentience yet. If we are going to say that one act defined when she reached sentience, then we could have said that Dolores reached sentience or the center of the maze for her inward journey when she shot the guy in the barn earlier this season. It's hard not to say that either of those aren't improvisation for any number of reasons. Maeve with the child in the park, and Dolores with the gun in the hand even though she couldn't do it earlier when her and Teddy. I understand that there's supposed to be some inference on the part of the audience for Maeve's journey, but I don't see enough evidence to suggest that her getting off the train was her moment where she was awakened. The beginning of it sure, but not the defining moment like we saw for Dolores with the town and church.
And me. I'm with TCTTS here. I just don't see how anyone is interpreting it the other way. I get that the other way is possible, it just doesn't make any sense.bangobango said:I honestly don't understand why you are being so condescending on this topic. Just about everybody involved has acknowledged that there is room for interpretation both ways except for you.TCTTS said:
I honestly don't understand how anyone could interpret any of this differently. TexAgs is the only place I've come across so far where any of this is even a question.
The answer is simple: you're not allowing yourself to see evidence presented in a manner other than the way you want to see it. Which is fine, but "I don't understand how this could be interpreted any other way" precludes that no other way possible to interpret it. This very thread (or the last few pages of it) is evidence to the contrary.bobinator said:And me. I'm with TCTTS here. I just don't see how anyone is interpreting it the other way. I get that the other way is possible, it just doesn't make any sense.bangobango said:I honestly don't understand why you are being so condescending on this topic. Just about everybody involved has acknowledged that there is room for interpretation both ways except for you.TCTTS said:
I honestly don't understand how anyone could interpret any of this differently. TexAgs is the only place I've come across so far where any of this is even a question.
You yourself admitted it is possible. As such, you should be able to examine it and see how it is being interpreted by those that see it as a possible.
You're losing the forest for the trees here with the Wyatt thing. It didn't have anything at all to do with Arnold's death. The only thing it had to do with was her being able to kill the other hosts.
It has everything to do with his death. His death was a part of the narrative, along with the hosts.bobinator said:
You're losing the forest for the trees here with the Wyatt thing. It didn't have anything at all to do with Arnold's death. The only thing it had to do with was her being able to kill the other hosts.
That maze dug in the ground when the MIB killed the little girl was not existential. If that was their intent then the writers do not know what that means.
When the hosts see Ford they hate him. They want to kill him. Delores' former father wanted all kinds of payback. Arnold is a different story. When they see him they love him.
Arnold from the grave is trying to stop Ford. Ford did not want to die last night. He did not expect to die. Arnold put something in them to make Delores respond that way. Bernard was muttering the lines. It triggered something in them.
When the hosts see Ford they hate him. They want to kill him. Delores' former father wanted all kinds of payback. Arnold is a different story. When they see him they love him.
Arnold from the grave is trying to stop Ford. Ford did not want to die last night. He did not expect to die. Arnold put something in them to make Delores respond that way. Bernard was muttering the lines. It triggered something in them.
What I think TCTTS and I agree on is that nobody has presented any evidence the other way that makes any sense at all. If someone does that, i'm certainly open to changing my mind. I've been wrong about several things on this show and changed my mind based on what people have posted over the course of these almost 70 pages of following along this season.
wait i am confused... you think the wyatt narrative was to kill the hosts AND arnold?
I am siding Jab and Bango on this one. Maeve absolutely was suppose to get off the train, no choice of hers.
He straight up said the hosts need more time and suffering to get where they need to be. Thats why he had Maeve turn back from the train.
Lets go through it. If she chose on her on free will to get off and look for her daughter that means:
Someone had to program her to leave the park and murder tons of people. Who would want that to happen.
Ford? Absolutely not. He wraps up his monologue by saying the hosts arent ready yet, they need more time.
Board Members? They want a successful and simplified park. Murder and escaped hosts doesn't scream good business.
Bernard? He clearly didnt program it since he clearly just learned about it upon revealing to her that it was a loop still.
Myth. Busted. 85% sure cause i'm not so hard headed that I cant open my mind to other opinions other than my own.
I think this is the first time I have disagreed with TCTTS on anything on this board.
He straight up said the hosts need more time and suffering to get where they need to be. Thats why he had Maeve turn back from the train.
Lets go through it. If she chose on her on free will to get off and look for her daughter that means:
Someone had to program her to leave the park and murder tons of people. Who would want that to happen.
Ford? Absolutely not. He wraps up his monologue by saying the hosts arent ready yet, they need more time.
Board Members? They want a successful and simplified park. Murder and escaped hosts doesn't scream good business.
Bernard? He clearly didnt program it since he clearly just learned about it upon revealing to her that it was a loop still.
Myth. Busted. 85% sure cause i'm not so hard headed that I cant open my mind to other opinions other than my own.
I think this is the first time I have disagreed with TCTTS on anything on this board.
No. It wasn't.jabberwalkie09 said:It has everything to do with his death. His death was a part of the narrative, along with the hosts.bobinator said:
You're losing the forest for the trees here with the Wyatt thing. It didn't have anything at all to do with Arnold's death. The only thing it had to do with was her being able to kill the other hosts.
He planned his own death as a way to try and stop Ford from opening the park because he didn't think Ford could rebuild the hosts without him. He then plays the musical cue which overrides DoloWyatt's code and allows her to pull the trigger and kill him and then kill herself.
"Wyatt" the character couldn't kill a real person any more than any other "bad guys" in the park can.
Yes, with the music being the signal for Dolores to carry out the last portion of that narrative shooting Teddy, Arnold, and herself.dromo07 said:
wait i am confused... you think the wyatt narrative was to kill the hosts AND arnold?
The Wyatt narrative was written for Arnold to try and have it all come crashing down before the park ever opened. Sparing himself and the hosts suffering. Well, that obviously didn't happen save for him being whacked by Dolores/Wyatt in the midst of that narrative.
It doesn't make a lot of sense to spend the entire season talking about "the maze" and how that's how the characters become sentient, then talk about a bicameral mind and show several characters hearing a voice, and then have one character that never looked for the maze and never heard a voice also achieve sentience just at the end shortly after realizing she was being played the entire time. It's just a little suspicious to me.bobinator said:And me. I'm with TCTTS here. I just don't see how anyone is interpreting it the other way. I get that the other way is possible, it just doesn't make any sense.bangobango said:I honestly don't understand why you are being so condescending on this topic. Just about everybody involved has acknowledged that there is room for interpretation both ways except for you.TCTTS said:
I honestly don't understand how anyone could interpret any of this differently. TexAgs is the only place I've come across so far where any of this is even a question.
We thought Delores was sentient when she shot the rapist. We thought she was sentient when she made the painting. We thought she was sentient when she "decided to quit being a victim." We thought she was sentient when she broke MIB's arm and fought back.
I mean, if being sentient is just doing something not scripted, is the little kid version of Ford sentient since he murdered that dog? Is the guy who refused to die and shot up all the hosts and drank the milk while he was doing it sentient?
[somewhat unrelated just stream of consciousness here]: While I'm thinking about it, once they achieve sentience, can they still be manipulated by the computers? Can Dolores still have her mind wiped or her coding upgraded? Can everything she's achieved be undone with the push of a few buttons?
I've been wrong as well (thinking it as all one concurrent timeline for instance), but I can't make it anymore concise that Maeve hasn't finished her journey and awoken like Dolores did. I've presented it, and you're clearly just not wanting to look at it any other way.bobinator said:
What I think TCTTS and I agree on is that nobody has presented any evidence the other way that makes any sense at all. If someone does that, i'm certainly open to changing my mind. I've been wrong about several things on this show and changed my mind based on what people have posted over the course of these almost 70 pages of following along this season.
Ford would certainly need someone to play Maeve's role. Maeve slaughtered the group of people that were essentially the army/security force for the park. It's part of the war he just started.
Yes. Ford. This is obviously my own theory, but I think it was a plan to get one of the on-the-way-to-sentient hosts out of the park before everything went down. Because obviously once hosts start killing humans, they are DEFINITELY not letting anything get out of wherever they are (island or whatever it is.)Independent George said:
I am siding Jab and Bango on this one. Maeve absolutely was suppose to get off the train, no choice of hers.
He straight up said the hosts need more time and suffering to get where they need to be. Thats why he had Maeve turn back from the train.
Lets go through it. If she chose on her on free will to get off and look for her daughter that means:
Someone had to program her to leave the park and murder tons of people. Who would want that to happen.
Ford? Absolutely not. He wraps up his monologue by saying the hosts arent ready yet, they need more time.
Board Members? They want a successful and simplified park. Murder and escaped hosts doesn't scream good business.
Bernard? He clearly didnt program it since he clearly just learned about it upon revealing to her that it was a loop still.
Myth. Busted. 85% sure cause i'm not so hard headed that I cant open my mind to other opinions other than my own.
I think this is the first time I have disagreed with TCTTS on anything on this board.
Look at it this way, if the point was for her not to leave, but to stay, then why let her get on the elevator? Why let her get on the train?
What sense does it make to have her get on the train, only to get off the train?
Here is what happens as soon as Maeve decided to get off the train...
I'm legit confused where you guys are getting this from.
Again, Bernard's iPad thing literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive of Maeve's mission. How else can that be interpreted? It CLEARLY goes against your argument that "Maeve was supposed to get off the train, no choice of hers." Really, I'm honestly asking - how is it "clear" that she was "supposed" to get off the train?
And yes, Ford OBVIOUSLY wants her to leave the park, and if murdering tons of people is how it has to happen, so be it. I mean, we've literally seen Ford endorse and initiate murder to protect his narrative - a narrative that specifically entails the hosts uprising against the humans.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I legitimately don't get where some of these interpretations and conclusions are coming from.
Again, Bernard's iPad thing literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive of Maeve's mission. How else can that be interpreted? It CLEARLY goes against your argument that "Maeve was supposed to get off the train, no choice of hers." Really, I'm honestly asking - how is it "clear" that she was "supposed" to get off the train?
And yes, Ford OBVIOUSLY wants her to leave the park, and if murdering tons of people is how it has to happen, so be it. I mean, we've literally seen Ford endorse and initiate murder to protect his narrative - a narrative that specifically entails the hosts uprising against the humans.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I legitimately don't get where some of these interpretations and conclusions are coming from.
You've said it, but what narrative sense does that make? Again it's the same question as above. Why would they have her get on the train at all, only to get off the train? And, again, we literally see in her code that she's supposed to stay on the train.jabberwalkie09 said:
I've been wrong as well (thinking it as all one concurrent timeline for instance), but I can't make it anymore concise that Maeve hasn't finished her journey and awoken like Dolores did. I've presented it, and you're clearly just not wanting to look at it any other way.
What sense did it make to manipulate her at all if it's that easy? Why not just program her to "cause a distraction and take out as much security as possible so I can execute my master plan in the park"?bobinator said:Yes. Ford. This is obviously my own theory, but I think it was a plan to get one of the on-the-way-to-sentient hosts out of the park before everything went down. Because obviously once hosts start killing humans, they are DEFINITELY not letting anything get out of wherever they are (island or whatever it is.)Independent George said:
I am siding Jab and Bango on this one. Maeve absolutely was suppose to get off the train, no choice of hers.
He straight up said the hosts need more time and suffering to get where they need to be. Thats why he had Maeve turn back from the train.
Lets go through it. If she chose on her on free will to get off and look for her daughter that means:
Someone had to program her to leave the park and murder tons of people. Who would want that to happen.
Ford? Absolutely not. He wraps up his monologue by saying the hosts arent ready yet, they need more time.
Board Members? They want a successful and simplified park. Murder and escaped hosts doesn't scream good business.
Bernard? He clearly didnt program it since he clearly just learned about it upon revealing to her that it was a loop still.
Myth. Busted. 85% sure cause i'm not so hard headed that I cant open my mind to other opinions other than my own.
I think this is the first time I have disagreed with TCTTS on anything on this board.
Look at it this way, if the point was for her not to leave, but to stay, then why let her get on the elevator? Why let her get on the train?
What sense does it make to have her get on the train, only to get off the train?
It's obvious that for whatever reason the hosts need to think they're working under their own free will. That's kind of the entire premise of the show and why I'm skeptical that she is actually sentient. I have no doubt the writers want you to THINK she is sentient, but they've pulled that trick only about dozen times the last ten episodes.
So you're saying that it was part of the Wyatt narrative? So that code/programming would have still been there after the fact, no? Now with her becoming sentient, she has access to that code as part of her what I'll say is a blended personality based on the narratives, without the cue.bobinator said:No. It wasn't.jabberwalkie09 said:It has everything to do with his death. His death was a part of the narrative, along with the hosts.bobinator said:
You're losing the forest for the trees here with the Wyatt thing. It didn't have anything at all to do with Arnold's death. The only thing it had to do with was her being able to kill the other hosts.
He planned his own death as a way to try and stop Ford from opening the park because he didn't think Ford could rebuild the hosts without him. He then plays the musical cue which overrides DoloWyatt's code and allows her to pull the trigger and kill him and then kill herself.
"Wyatt" the character couldn't kill a real person any more than any other "bad guys" in the park can.
Ford and BernArnold controlled the hosts with audio/vocal cues. It's not an override, it's a cue for an act to occur in that narrative.
I don't think Ford (or whoever, we technically don't know who did this) expected Meave to gain sentience and refuse to leave. They obviously expected her to get on the train and leave. They thought she was still under their control.
I'm saying his own death wasn't part of any narrative.
How is the ipad conclusive?TCTTS said:
I'm legit confused where you guys are getting this from.
Again, Bernard's iPad thing literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive of Maeve's mission. How else can that be interpreted? It CLEARLY goes against your argument that "Maeve was supposed to get off the train, no choice of hers." Really, I'm honestly asking - how is it "clear" that she was "supposed" to get off the train?
And yes, Ford OBVIOUSLY wants her to leave the park, and if murdering tons of people is how it has to happen, so be it. I mean, we've literally seen Ford endorse and initiate murder to protect his narrative - a narrative that specifically entails the hosts uprising against the humans.
I feel like I'm taking crazy pills here. I legitimately don't get where some of these interpretations and conclusions are coming from.
We've seen Bernard get one of those things and program Clementine to murder Ford if necessary, only to find out that there is a backdoor that nobody but Ford knows about.
So because Ford had control of Clementine, ergo Maeve was programmed to get off the train. Solid. Carve it in the rock.
I immediately took it as what Maeves thoughts are suppose to be. If you program her to think she is leaving the park and entering the mainland to do her thing it makes sense to me.Quote:
Again, Bernard's iPad thing literally says "INFILTRATE MAINLAND" as the final directive of Maeve's mission. How else can that be interpreted?
This is just like Maeve in the show when Bernard is trying to tell her that she is not making her own decisions and about to tell her that she was not in fact going to leave. She just keeps screaming "No, these are my own thoughts!" then she snaps the device.
I thought the episode was called 'The Bicameral Mind' ..... not minds. Only kidding there.
FTR, I am loving all these discussions and not getting jack squat done at work.
No, my point is that there is obviously parts of the robot's mind that Bernard does not know how to access through the ipad. When he's looking at the ipad for Clementin, he's presumably seeing that her directive or whatever is to shoot Ford on command. There is coding hidden somewhere that Ford is able to access that Bernard cannot that runs counter to Bernard's programmed directive.JJxvi said:
So because Ford had control of Clementine, ergo Maeve was programmed to get off the train. Solid. Carve it in the rock.
If that's true, then how can you take anything Bernard shows on the ipad at face value? How do you know Ford isn't using the backdoor again?
Yeah, this is sort of what I'm talking about. With any TV show or movie you can theorize your way into almost anything crazy you want. Give me an hour and I could probably come up with a theory as to why Family Matters takes place on another planet that you couldn't directly disprove.JJxvi said:
So because Ford had control of Clementine, ergo Maeve was programmed to get off the train. Solid. Carve it in the rock.
It's just that for Maeve to get on the train, get off the train, and for that to be someone's plan; overlaid onto what Ford is saying; and in concert with everything else going on, doesn't make any narrative sense.
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