only people we see shooting in the park was Deloros and Clem
*** WESTWORLD Season 1 (HBO) ***
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Last: 7 yr ago by Sazerac
bangobango said:The whole gun thing is confusing. I was under the impression that whoever shot Harris could have killed him if they'd aimed better.bobinator said:
That whole "shooting their way out" thing annoyed me some actually.
Are all of those people they shot hosts? Have to be right?
Because if not, why did anyone at the facility have guns that would kill people? If the guns inside the park can only kill hosts, why would the guns outside the park be able to actually kill people?
I guess Ford could've sneaked in a gun for Dolores to use.
And then we have the "never shoot them in the face" question. Could Dolores have killed William in the graveyard when she dislocated his arm?
It certainly felt at the end like all the host could shoot and kill the humans, but I can't remember if Teddy started shooting people or if it was just Dolores?
The rest of the hosts at the party watched Delores shoot up the crowd.
I don't think it would have killed him, but it probably wouldn't feel good to take a sim bullet or whatever they are to the face.
The gun Dolores uses is the same gun she originally used to kill Arnold so I'm assuming that particularly gun (or its bullets) doesn't have the safety mechanism the others do.
Teddy didn't start shooting, the only host besides Dolores we see shoot someone is what looked like Clem shooting the MiB, but like I said in the other post Clem had her core code reprogrammed by Bernard when he was trying to hold Ford hostage.
The gun Dolores uses is the same gun she originally used to kill Arnold so I'm assuming that particularly gun (or its bullets) doesn't have the safety mechanism the others do.
Teddy didn't start shooting, the only host besides Dolores we see shoot someone is what looked like Clem shooting the MiB, but like I said in the other post Clem had her core code reprogrammed by Bernard when he was trying to hold Ford hostage.
What the show directly depicts is important. For Dolores, we were shown Albert overwriting Dolores' code with the "Wyatt" code in order to make her kill all the hosts, Albert, and then herself. On the night of Ford's resignation/new narrative, we were shown Dolores' recognition that the internal voice was her own bicameral mind. For Maeve, we were shown her current code explicitly. Then we were shown her getting off the train, probably to look for her "daughter". Maeve wasn't following any internal voices for her escape plan, so if we're assuming things based on evidence it's safer to assume that some other mechanism is at work in Maeve. If anything is possible no matter what the scenes show, then what's the point of showing anything? IMO, of course.bobinator said:
My argument is that we did see it. Those 15 minutes of indecision on the train followed by her deciding to do what her emotions told her to do instead of what he programming told her to do was us seeing it. I don't think we need to have a literal visual interpretation of it every time a host crosses that threshold.
That's how I interpreted all of that anyway. Otherwise, what's the point?
I don't necessarily think so. It's about the collapse of the park at the hands of the hosts striving for sentience. Ford himself told Bernard that even now, they aren't ready and would need to endure a lot more suffering in order to be ready.bobinator said:If it wasn't, then the entire first season was a waste of time right? I mean that was the entire point of the season.MW03 said:
Either way, I'm not 100% on that being Delores' choice either.
The "Wyatt" code was only so she would mow down the other hosts, it was the music he played that made her kill him and then shoot herself.
I took it as they wanted to give the audience a pretty spelled out example of what's going on, so they showed Dolores literally sitting there talking to herself. Maeve "sitting there talking to herself" was more subtle. They even overlay her decision to get off the train with Ford saying "the decisions they will make, the people they will become" or something to that effect.
I took it as they wanted to give the audience a pretty spelled out example of what's going on, so they showed Dolores literally sitting there talking to herself. Maeve "sitting there talking to herself" was more subtle. They even overlay her decision to get off the train with Ford saying "the decisions they will make, the people they will become" or something to that effect.
But he also even says outloud that this time the story "begins with a killing, this time by choice."
If all of that was a lie, and it wasn't by choice, then I just think it makes the entire season sort of pointless in the big picture.
If all of that was a lie, and it wasn't by choice, then I just think it makes the entire season sort of pointless in the big picture.
well at least three
I was pretty satisified actually that the series could just end with that episode.
All I would really want for this show is for season 2 to be Delos sending in people to take back control of the park starting with the control room/building and for the main guy heading up control to be played by a chainsmoking Samuel L Jackson
All I would really want for this show is for season 2 to be Delos sending in people to take back control of the park starting with the control room/building and for the main guy heading up control to be played by a chainsmoking Samuel L Jackson
With Elsie and Stubbs rowing into the distance on a boat with Abernathy to steal the code and start their own park?
JJxvi said:
I was pretty satisified actually that the series could just end with that episode.
All I would really want for this show is for season 2 to be Delos sending in people to take back control of the park starting with the control room/building and for the main guy heading up control to be played by a chainsmoking Samuel L Jackson
Thought I was reading something akin to Jurassic Park there, and the last line confirmed it.
Stubbs also better be alive, if he died on screen denying us his "clever girl" moment that would be a disappointment.
Although...I will say, now that I think about it, his last scene WAS pretty "clever girl."
I thought when Bernard was looking at the tablet which showed Maeve's programming he would see this at the bottom:
JJxvi said:
Although...I will say, now that I think about it, his last scene WAS pretty "clever girl."
hahaha. Damn Im sad I didnt catchhow perfect that was on first viewing
See, this is what is confusing. Is it changing their programming that makes the guns now hurt the humans, or is it a special gun itself? Maeve changed the coding for Hector and the other girl, so that would explain why they could kill the guards, which would mean, I assume, that every gun in the park was real. If it is some type of special weaponry, then how does Clementine hurt MIB and why do the guards need real guns?bobinator said:
I don't think it would have killed him, but it probably wouldn't feel good to take a sim bullet or whatever they are to the face.
The gun Dolores uses is the same gun she originally used to kill Arnold so I'm assuming that particularly gun (or its bullets) doesn't have the safety mechanism the others do.
Teddy didn't start shooting, the only host besides Dolores we see shoot someone is what looked like Clem shooting the MiB, but like I said in the other post Clem had her core code reprogrammed by Bernard when he was trying to hold Ford hostage.
Personally, think this is one of those things that kind of falls apart when you really start examining it.
They are getting into the mechanics of the park next season. I assume this will include the weapons.
Clearly there's a difference between the guns in the park and the guns with the red ring that Stubbs and others were carrying, right? I suppose the older guns didn't have to be red ringed.
It has to be in the weapon itself or else Teddy would have killed William/MiB several times over by now.
So, inside the park, you can sort of talk your way around the issue. We already know Dolores has a real gun, it's not a crazy leap to think that someone gave Clem a real gun as well, knowing that she was the only other host who can actually pull the trigger.
But outside the park is a problem. If you have guns (or bullets) that can somehow tell the difference between hosts and humans, those would be the perfect guns to have outside the park because if a host is on the loose you can just mow down entire crowds of people and it won't matter if you shoot any actual humans. It might sting them a little, but whatever you sign that "might get shot with a sim bullet" waiver on your first day in HR. Probably don't even think twice about it, it's basically never happened before.
So, inside the park, you can sort of talk your way around the issue. We already know Dolores has a real gun, it's not a crazy leap to think that someone gave Clem a real gun as well, knowing that she was the only other host who can actually pull the trigger.
But outside the park is a problem. If you have guns (or bullets) that can somehow tell the difference between hosts and humans, those would be the perfect guns to have outside the park because if a host is on the loose you can just mow down entire crowds of people and it won't matter if you shoot any actual humans. It might sting them a little, but whatever you sign that "might get shot with a sim bullet" waiver on your first day in HR. Probably don't even think twice about it, it's basically never happened before.
It's been my understanding that the bullets are what have the safety mechanism. We really don't understand how exactly it works, but something that just occurred to me is that when Maeve messed with all of the security protocols early in the episode, it's possible that she could have turned that safety mechanism off. I don't know if that's what Nolan and Joy were going for, but it's a potential explanation.bangobango said:See, this is what is confusing. Is it changing their programming that makes the guns now hurt the humans, or is it a special gun itself? Maeve changed the coding for Hector and the other girl, so that would explain why they could kill the guards, which would mean, I assume, that every gun in the park was real. If it is some type of special weaponry, then how does Clementine hurt MIB and why do the guards need real guns?bobinator said:
I don't think it would have killed him, but it probably wouldn't feel good to take a sim bullet or whatever they are to the face.
The gun Dolores uses is the same gun she originally used to kill Arnold so I'm assuming that particularly gun (or its bullets) doesn't have the safety mechanism the others do.
Teddy didn't start shooting, the only host besides Dolores we see shoot someone is what looked like Clem shooting the MiB, but like I said in the other post Clem had her core code reprogrammed by Bernard when he was trying to hold Ford hostage.
Personally, think this is one of those things that kind of falls apart when you really start examining it.
That's possible, but that seems like an odd system to even be able to turn off.
The morning after, and I feel like this needs repeating...
Maeve has reached consciousness.
Dolores has reached consciousness.
And Bernard is well on his way.
Some of you are completely missing the point of the end THEME if you're arguing anything different. Ford figured it out. He WANTED them to be free/conscious. There's no more secret code overriding Maeve or Dolores. There would be no thematic point to the show/season if that weren't true. Theme almost always overrides story/plot. It's time to get out of conspiracy theory mode for the time being and accept the thesis Nolan & co delivered.
Quote:
Maeve broke code/made her own decision there. That was the whole point. Ford was giving all the hosts freedom. That doesn't just mean freedom from the park, but freedom to make their own decisions. Yes, he needed her to execute that plan up to that point, but his gift to her, so to speak, was finally letting her make her own decision there on the train, and that's exactly what she did. To say anything else betrays the entire thematic point of the finale.
Maeve has reached consciousness.
Dolores has reached consciousness.
And Bernard is well on his way.
Some of you are completely missing the point of the end THEME if you're arguing anything different. Ford figured it out. He WANTED them to be free/conscious. There's no more secret code overriding Maeve or Dolores. There would be no thematic point to the show/season if that weren't true. Theme almost always overrides story/plot. It's time to get out of conspiracy theory mode for the time being and accept the thesis Nolan & co delivered.
Several scenes were devoted to the gun Delores used to kill Arnold and Ford. Arnold gave it to her, it was planted at the farm, and Ford gave it to her again. Not sure about Clementine's gun, or the gun Teddy used to essentially knock out MIB. Something changed with regard to Teddy's gun for sure.
If it's the weapon itself (which I am not disagreeing with), then why do they NEVER shoot the humans in the their heads or face? There have been several times this season where a human basically dares the host to shoot them in the head or face and every time the host refuses to do it, even if they were just beating the hell out of the guy are shooting him multiple times in the body (see Teddy and MIB's first encounter and Dolores and MIB's last encounter)?bobinator said:
It has to be in the weapon itself or else Teddy would have killed William/MiB several times over by now.
So, inside the park, you can sort of talk your way around the issue. We already know Dolores has a real gun, it's not a crazy leap to think that someone gave Clem a real gun as well, knowing that she was the only other host who can actually pull the trigger.
But outside the park is a problem. If you have guns (or bullets) that can somehow tell the difference between hosts and humans, those would be the perfect guns to have outside the park because if a host is on the loose you can just mow down entire crowds of people and it won't matter if you shoot any actual humans. It might sting them a little, but whatever you sign that "might get shot with a sim bullet" waiver on your first day in HR. Probably don't even think twice about it, it's basically never happened before.
TCTTS said:
I feel like I need to repeat this...Quote:
I'm 99.9% certain Maeve broke code/made her own decision there. That was the whole point. Ford was giving all the hosts freedom. That doesn't just mean freedom from the park, but freedom to make their own decisions. Yes, he needed her to execute that plan up to that point, but his gift to her, so to speak, was finally letting her make her own decision there on the train, and that's exactly what she did. To say anything else betrays the entire thematic point of the finale.
Maeve has reached consciousness.
Dolores has reached consciousness.
And Bernard is well on his way.
Some of you are completely missing the point of the end THEME if you're arguing anything different. Ford figured it out. He WANTED them to be free/conscious. There's no more secret code overriding Maeve or Dolores. There would be no thematic point to the show/season if that weren't true. Theme overrides story/plot. It's time to get out of conspiracy theory mode for the time being and accept the thesis Nolan & co delivered.
I don't think Maeve has awoken yet. Bernard mentioned as much when he was reading here narrative to her. We're supposed to question the missing information after she cuts him off, which tells me that there is more to her narrative than just getting on the train. She doesn't have her own inner voice yet like Delores, just memories of her daughter.
Not sure I understand what you mean by this? The guns already hit the guests like a rubber bullet they only penetrate other hosts.Quote:
or the gun Teddy used to essentially knock out MIB. Something changed with regard to Teddy's gun for sure.
I don't think anything changed, I just think William/MiB (also this is a pain in the ass now because you could just say William, but it's easier to say MiB so that people know what scene you're talking about), was already banged up from fighting Dolores so he was easily knocked out by the force of several bullets to the chest. Keep in mind that he also got knocked to the ground as William by a bullet back in the day. So those things are pretty forceful if they catch you straight on, which might be the answer to bangobango's question.
Hosts can shoot humans at a distance because their bullets won't kill them, but up close, they could so they're programmed not to shoot them in the head or to shoot them at close range.
Hosts can shoot humans at a distance because their bullets won't kill them, but up close, they could so they're programmed not to shoot them in the head or to shoot them at close range.
it's the future, man
bangobango said:If it's the weapon itself (which I am not disagreeing with), then why do they NEVER shoot the humans in the their heads or face? There have been several times this season where a human basically dares the host to shoot them in the head or face and every time the host refuses to do it, even if they were just beating the hell out of the guy are shooting him multiple times in the body (see Teddy and MIB's first encounter and Dolores and MIB's last encounter)?bobinator said:
It has to be in the weapon itself or else Teddy would have killed William/MiB several times over by now.
So, inside the park, you can sort of talk your way around the issue. We already know Dolores has a real gun, it's not a crazy leap to think that someone gave Clem a real gun as well, knowing that she was the only other host who can actually pull the trigger.
But outside the park is a problem. If you have guns (or bullets) that can somehow tell the difference between hosts and humans, those would be the perfect guns to have outside the park because if a host is on the loose you can just mow down entire crowds of people and it won't matter if you shoot any actual humans. It might sting them a little, but whatever you sign that "might get shot with a sim bullet" waiver on your first day in HR. Probably don't even think twice about it, it's basically never happened before.
Because it's part of their core coding to not want to hurt humans, and even go so far as sacrifice themselves to protect a human.
I don't think we are missing the point at all. I think we're rightfully questioning the validity of Dolores' awakening and subsequent choice with regard to Ford's interference in that process. I think it's a completely legitimate concern and critique as it relates to Dolores being Wyatt.TCTTS said:
The morning after, and I feel like this need repeating...Maeve has reached consciousness.Quote:
I'm 99.9% certain Maeve broke code/made her own decision there. That was the whole point. Ford was giving all the hosts freedom. That doesn't just mean freedom from the park, but freedom to make their own decisions. Yes, he needed her to execute that plan up to that point, but his gift to her, so to speak, was finally letting her make her own decision there on the train, and that's exactly what she did. To say anything else betrays the entire thematic point of the finale.
Dolores has reached consciousness.
And Bernard is well on his way.
Some of you are completely missing the point of the end THEME if you're arguing anything different. Ford figured it out. He WANTED them to be free/conscious. There's no more secret code overriding Maeve or Dolores. There would be no thematic point to the show/season if that weren't true. Theme almost always overrides story/plot. It's time to get out of conspiracy theory mode for the time being and accept the thesis Nolan & co delivered.
I think we know that Dolores has reached the center of the maze, and that if Maeve hasn't she's close. Plus, MW03 brought a great point that to say that Dolores awakening was the point of the season is myopic in scope. Ford wanted to clear the board, and allow the hosts to progress on their own eventually breaking free of their programming. Maeve obviously did that, but the questioning is around Dolores' actions at the end especially as it relates to her supposed awakening.
I think you can understand the theme just fine and not think one or all three of them reached consciousness. Especially in regards to Bernard and Maeve. I agree that Dolores would be a stretch.TCTTS said:
The morning after, and I feel like this needs repeating...Quote:
Maeve broke code/made her own decision there. That was the whole point. Ford was giving all the hosts freedom. That doesn't just mean freedom from the park, but freedom to make their own decisions. Yes, he needed her to execute that plan up to that point, but his gift to her, so to speak, was finally letting her make her own decision there on the train, and that's exactly what she did. To say anything else betrays the entire thematic point of the finale.
Maeve has reached consciousness.
Dolores has reached consciousness.
And Bernard is well on his way.
Some of you are completely missing the point of the end THEME if you're arguing anything different. Ford figured it out. He WANTED them to be free/conscious. There's no more secret code overriding Maeve or Dolores. There would be no thematic point to the show/season if that weren't true. Theme almost always overrides story/plot. It's time to get out of conspiracy theory mode for the time being and accept the thesis Nolan & co delivered.
You also seem to be ignoring that a pretty big theme in this story is just when does the host reach consciousness. The entire season we see and are led to believe that Dolores is reaching consciousness at different points in her loop. William spends his entire first trip to the park believing Dolores is real, when really she was going to need thirty more years of seasoning before really finding the end of the maze.
I could easily see them focusing on one host each season reaching consciousness. That could be Maeve next season, and just like Dolores, you may have several misdirections that make you think she has reached consciousness up until she actually does. I think even if Hopkins isn't around next season we are going to see a lot of references to Ford and I suspect he will be a "character" in the sense that he wills till be pulling a lot of strings even from the grave.
In some ways, you could argue that it's too easy of an out for Maeve to reach consciousness on her own. After everything Dolores went through to get there and the whole Maze premise, why is Maeve allowed to just kind of skip to the end?
There's zero evidence to support this conclusion, though, other than it being you're own preference. The entire sequence was designed by the writers for Maeve to arrive at that one point/decision. There's no other way to interpret it. Ford's "plan" was for her to go to the mainland, sure, but once she got on the train, the point is, she could do whatever she wanted. Ford didn't plant a mother/daughter there in the seat across from her to remind her of her daughter, thus still controlling her and guiding her back to the park for whatever reason. He had no motivation to do so and that would go completely against the point being made by both Ford and the writers. That just wouldn't make sense and doesn't jibe with anything thematically that was going on there at the end.
And just to add to those thoughts in my previous post, letting Maeve reach consciousness kind of negates the whole Dolores as Arnold's "chosen one," doesn't it?
I mean, we spend all this time talking about and searching for the maze, and how Arnold laid all this groundwork for Dolores to find it and achieve his goals, and it just kind of happens out of nowhere for Maeve? Kind of cheapens Dolores's story arch, doesn't it?
I mean, we spend all this time talking about and searching for the maze, and how Arnold laid all this groundwork for Dolores to find it and achieve his goals, and it just kind of happens out of nowhere for Maeve? Kind of cheapens Dolores's story arch, doesn't it?
This. Maeve is close but not there yet. We are lead to believe that she is there for the last couple of episodes and then BAM. Bernard literally tells the audience that she is still on a narrative and was about to tell her she would turn back on the train.hu said:
I don't think Maeve has awoken yet. Bernard mentioned as much when he was reading here narrative to her. We're supposed to question the missing information after she cuts him off, which tells me that there is more to her narrative than just getting on the train. She doesn't have her own inner voice yet like Delores, just memories of her daughter.
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